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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    You sound like GC during the Cataclysm beta. "DPS will have to worry about their survival! Healers won't be able to heal you! These abilities will be critically important in PvE!" All bullshit. Never happened.
    Just because you didn't see it happen does not mean that the Absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. If my guild is struggling to down a boss, and healing is an issue and I can self heal my self, that just means the raid as a whole will be better off. As for LFD groups, I seriously doubt you have NEVER run into that terrible healer that couldn't main heal... stone core (chose something easy), and if it wasn't for your own and the other 3 people (excluding healer 5- 1 = 4, 4 -1"you" = 3) survive-ability options, some trash/boss's wouldn't have gone down.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    I still don't get how this is worse that it currently is, the talent-trees have been increasingly been made so you only had the illusion of choice.

    The MoP talents are better than the Cata (4.x) ones since you actually get to make choices - as it is now you make no choices you just cherry pick for a little more DPS for most specs.
    Some tier there are not choice, math says X talent wins (Tier 56:Plague Leach for DPS/blood and possible UB for Blood), other tiers are situational (If you ever need Chilibans for AoE slows over DA's Mobility, assuming frost UH has not choice outside of DA), the rest I could care less as they don't help in most cases.

    In short DK talents are mess there are clearly talents tanks and DPS want/need to take in order to win. PvE has some choices but not many.
    Last edited by Kaosbringer; 2012-07-30 at 09:36 PM.

  3. #43
    So you're saying that as a DPS spec, you regularly traded-off DPS to heal yourself in Cataclysm raid content?

    Of course these abilities are situationally valuable. They always have been. You want to heal yourself after dropping to 1HP on Chimaeron before the stacking phase, for example. There's no reason for DPS players to tradeoff DPS in the vast majority of fights. You didn't see rets using selfless healer, or DPS DKs death striking, or shamans healing waving themselves, etc. It just wasn't necessary. The healers would take care of it, no problem.

    If you pre-suppose that the healers are incompetent, that changes the equation. But there's no real point in going down that road.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-07-30 at 09:42 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaosbringer View Post
    Some tier there are not choice, math says X talent wins (Tier 56:Plague Leach for DPS/blood and possible UB for Blood), other tiers are situational (If you ever need Chilibans for AoE slows over DA's Mobility, assuming frost UH has not choice outside of DA), the rest I could care less as they don't help in most cases.
    I agree, but it's still better than how it currently is.
    Last edited by Maklor; 2012-07-30 at 09:40 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    I agree, but it's still better than how it currently is.
    It is indeed an improvement. But it hasn't lived up to the original description. The MoP talent system is brilliant, but the implementation sucks.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-07-30 at 09:40 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    I agree, but it's still better than how it currently is.
    IMO (currently playing blood in beta and play blood in live) I agree to some point but disagree to some other point. I find that survivability for blood is still very good in beta as it stands but find myself at times glad I know what to pick. IMO someone first getting into this class that isn't familiar with it can very easily choose the wrong choices and seriously ruin the fun this class is. As posted before if tier75 was redone and fixed then it wouldn't be as deadly to choose the wrong thing in that tier. I like the way runes work right now but in beta i don't really care for it when I'm in frost spec in beta. In beta, IMO, the rune system feels very clunky.thats really the only thing I don't like about the changes made besides the obvious craptastic choices for the 2 end tier talents. In my opinion

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It is indeed an improvement. But it hasn't lived up to the original description. The MoP talent system is brilliant, but the implementation sucks.
    This has been one of the games biggest problems- Great ideas, poor Implementation. Now before I get called a hypocrite, I never once said that our talents were great, they are very lack luster, but for what we have, we still have a choice. That choice is what i'm arguing.

    So you're saying that as a DPS spec, you regularly traded-off DPS to heal yourself in Cataclysm raid content?

    Of course these abilities are situationally valuable. They always have been. You want to heal yourself after dropping to 1HP on Chimaeron before the stacking phase, for example. There's no reason for DPS players to tradeoff DPS in the vast majority of fights. You didn't see rets using selfless healer, or DPS DKs death striking, or shamans healing waving themselves, etc. It just wasn't necessary. The healers would take care of it, no problem.

    If you pre-suppose that the healers are incompetent, that changes the equation. But there's no real point in going down that road.
    Early in Cata, I did see that- was on a very low pop server which had only 1 guild that didn't have at least 2 players that ALWAYS played sub par. Your notion of a DPS player having no reason to trade off DPS for survive-ablity is kind of skewed in my opinion - not saying its wrong, but doesn't feel 100% right either. That notion puts a lot of strain on players already playing a semi stressful- at least more so than DPS- role. As a Dps if I can alleviate that stress just a little but buy keeping my self up so that healers have more mana for huge damage spikes to the tank or rest of the raid. Is it needed this late in content, probably 98% no, but come MoP when people are having to re-adjust to the all the changes and people are learning fights and developing strats- does it help? In my opinion it does, but as you said, our talents are situational- and come end of mop probably won't be needed and will hopefully have gone through some more changes by that time.

  8. #48
    Healing was much more difficult in 4.0 than 4.3 or 5.0. It was like an entirely different game in terms of difficulty and running OOM. That said, my guild had competent healers and I never needed to tradeoff DPS for healing except in situations like Chimaeron where it's part of the encounter. It's best to approach it assuming competence in raiding.

    Of course you can't assume competence in LFD or LFR, but that content is trivially easy so it won't be a problem there either.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-07-30 at 10:14 PM.

  9. #49
    While I don't think its as bad as people are making it out to be, I would have loved more "cool" stuff. I know, "cool stuff" is vague but for crying out loud at least give DT a new model for geist.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seruketo View Post
    While I don't think its as bad as people are making it out to be, I would have loved more "cool" stuff. I know, "cool stuff" is vague but for crying out loud at least give DT a new model for geist.
    ya know what would be cool for that? how about a mini LK as a goul? that would be awesome! summons a mini arthus? who wouldn't love that?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Healing was much more difficult in 4.0 than 4.3 or 5.0. It was like an entirely different game in terms of difficulty and running OOM. That said, my guild had competent healers and I never needed to tradeoff DPS for healing except in situations like Chimaeron where it's part of the encounter. It's best to approach it assuming competence in raiding.

    Of course you can't assume competence in LFD or LFR, but that content is trivially easy so it won't be a problem there either.
    Agreed entirely, I've recently had the fortune of switching to a higher pop server- Illidian- where finding 5 to 20 additional people that don't play sub par all time isn't a problem (have 5-6 people I group with usually at the beginning of an expansion that gets reduced to 2 or 3 because the game gets "stale" after a while- which I do have to admit happens to me as well)

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It is indeed an improvement. But it hasn't lived up to the original description. The MoP talent system is brilliant, but the implementation sucks.
    ^this. Blizz has the right idea, but have failed miserably to deliver on their promise.

    I also want to mention the situational talent choices (like Chilibans for AoE slows as frost). These should not be counted as a choice, main because we are switch one talent for a mandatory talent for a particular fight. Well this is fine, these should not work in favor of Blizzards design choices.
    Last edited by Kaosbringer; 2012-07-30 at 11:46 PM.

  13. #53
    See, I don't mind those tiers as much.

    Sure, lichborne and AMZ are highly situational, but Purgatory isn't. That tier has a default choice.

    Same thing with the next tier. Chilblains and particularly Asphyxiate as situational as hell, but Death's Advance is a good default choice.

    What really grinds my gears is the L75 tier, where we're forced to pick a specific talent, and the L90 tier, where all three chocies are highly situational and there's no default choice.

  14. #54
    T1: is a matter of personal desease spreading choice. I guess Plague Leach play it roll while switching from almost dead target to a new one(take in account the GCD for desease application). UB somewhat AoE CD and Rolling blood looks like an obvious choice for tanking (Blood Boil damage been increased).

    T2: Lichborne, meh never liked this talent due the GCD and the unknown RP amount factor for DC. AMZ look like it basic absorb is buffed and probably can be used as 2nd AMS/somewhat party CD or puting it on a tank with low magic mitigation. Death Siphon is tactical range heal/totem killer if you have no suitable rune. It scales with frost/UH mastery.

    T3eath Advance is balanced pvp/pve talent and we still have the basic Chain of Ice- along with Death Advance activation( 30%) and Remorsless Winter i'd say it works pretty well. I guess Chillblains has it use in area PvP(BG) and very situational raiding evirnonment adds requires CC ( i think there is a boss with elemental adds need kiting).
    Asphyxiate is for tactical usage in 3v3 arenas presume someone else provides slow-lock effect.

    T4: Simply playstyle although i agree with 100% of the community who demend to bring back good old blood tap. theory crafting defer RC and RE with .% with is VERY marginal.
    RC take advatage for tanking after the removal of BT well i like it. Some pro tetris players might keep sticking with the RE.

    T5: Gorefiend is a fun skill with powerful lifegriping properties. kinda usefull for both PvE and PvP situations. Remorseless winter and Desecrated Ground are very situational. I'd pick the first for tanking CC cd while the 2nd i'd pick for flag defending in BG for example. its very powerful for pvp imo.

    In conclusion,while non of those choices will make real difference in PvE envirnoment yet in PvP imo we got more choices than any other classes. Yes, some of the skill choices are without sense to stick together in the same tier, i agree, but still there are no obvious choices. I disagree with DA is above Chillblains because Chillblains is better for AoE slowiing like in BGs there macro skills and strategy are above microing.

    P.S. Stop complaining about not getting damage abilities in last tier. we freaking got Soul Reaper.... finally a finsher for DKs you should rejoice.
    Last edited by JackTheLad; 2012-07-31 at 01:31 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by thelordymir View Post
    Except this isnt the case at all. In WoTLK we were super OP at the start, nerfed down at the end. Come Cata we were pretty OP in PvE then OP in PvP and then nerfed down completely in both to where we are the easiest targets to center on in pvp. Different for tanks i'm sure, but for pve dps and pvp it's always been OP >> Nerfed
    I'm so glad someone caught this. We are always much better at the start than compared to the shell of the class we were at the end. Excluding blood right now, of course.

  16. #56
    From the PvE side, unholy is fine right now. It's actually one of the better specs. DW frost is way behind, and 2H frost has been garbage since 4.0. Blood is a raid-capable tank too.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by JackTheLad View Post
    T1: is a matter of personal desease spreading choice. I guess Plague Leach play it roll while switching from almost dead target to a new one(take in account the GCD for desease application). UB somewhat AoE CD and Rolling blood looks like an obvious choice for tanking (Blood Boil damage been increased).
    Unfortunately that is wrong. PL is mandatory for DPS spec and to be used when disease are about to fall of (3s or so I think) so that we get the extra Death Rune, which equals more DPS. Some Tanks may even want this over UB or Rolling Blood (think thats whats its called) for flexibility.

    PL is the the worst change in that tier (replaced Corps Explosion). Simply for the fact that it was suppose to be disease spreading tier, but PL consumes diseases and gives DPS.
    Last edited by Kaosbringer; 2012-07-31 at 04:01 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Baphomette View Post
    DA is more mandatory than chilblains. PVPing without chilblains will suck less than PVPing without DA in almost all situations.
    I am not so sure about that. If you have been playing frost on live you have been playing without DA already. I have been pvping as frost and having a hard time adjusting to DA. Using a frost rune to keep chains up is eating my dps especially when I am trying to peel multiples. Not having the roots on chain is a big problem for me right now, I had a rogue run from me the other day in a WSG match at like 4% life all across the map. He was sprinting away each application of chains I did and I could not catch up to him with DA sprint. Had I been able to root him he would have died.

    I still think the passive slow of Howling blast with the root component of chains is still bigger than the 70% of DA. Although it will hurt losing the passive 10% speed since we have to play in frost presence now. I am thinking that if you are used to playing as frost then you are used to the chains root utility.

    Of course it could also be that I am just having a harder time than most adjusting to DA uses.


    PvP wise though, I don't think anyone will take anything other than lichborne. Especially with AMS energizing us baseline now, lichborne is a big deal for all three specs. Asphyxiate will never be used. Death pact is the obvious choice mainly because of the low healing of siphon (and loss of damage) and the way conversion stops our rune generation and our damage. Most people will probably take empowerment now. Blood tap is dead now that it is on the GCD, but it was head and shoulders above the rest before. I can't imagine DKs not taking a second trinket in desecrated ground. It would even be so much stronger for the humans....

    Yup, PvP wise DKs are predictable to opponents so that "have to figure out how he is specced" meta game will not work for us.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 01:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    I mean you're not going to pick RC or RE over blood tap as a tank are you?
    FYI, no one will be choosing blood tap. NO ONE. It is on GCD now so it is very useless for tanks and dps will probably want corruption and pvpers probably want empowerment.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    I am not so sure about that. If you have been playing frost on live you have been playing without DA already. I have been pvping as frost and having a hard time adjusting to DA. Using a frost rune to keep chains up is eating my dps especially when I am trying to peel multiples. Not having the roots on chain is a big problem for me right now, I had a rogue run from me the other day in a WSG match at like 4% life all across the map. He was sprinting away each application of chains I did and I could not catch up to him with DA sprint. Had I been able to root him he would have died.

    I still think the passive slow of Howling blast with the root component of chains is still bigger than the 70% of DA. Although it will hurt losing the passive 10% speed since we have to play in frost presence now. I am thinking that if you are used to playing as frost then you are used to the chains root utility.

    Of course it could also be that I am just having a harder time than most adjusting to DA uses.


    PvP wise though, I don't think anyone will take anything other than lichborne. Especially with AMS energizing us baseline now, lichborne is a big deal for all three specs. Asphyxiate will never be used. Death pact is the obvious choice mainly because of the low healing of siphon (and loss of damage) and the way conversion stops our rune generation and our damage. Most people will probably take empowerment now. Blood tap is dead now that it is on the GCD, but it was head and shoulders above the rest before. I can't imagine DKs not taking a second trinket in desecrated ground. It would even be so much stronger for the humans....

    Yup, PvP wise DKs are predictable to opponents so that "have to figure out how he is specced" meta game will not work for us.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 01:54 PM ----------



    FYI, no one will be choosing blood tap. NO ONE. It is on GCD now so it is very useless for tanks and dps will probably want corruption and pvpers probably want empowerment.
    It's all situational. DA is better when you are constantly being slowed where as chillblains is better for peeling, specifically when you are not the one being focused.

    Death siphon has its niche as it is a ranged ability. Use howling blast when you have a fair bit of health, death siphon when you are dropping a bit.

    Asphyxiate is both a stun and silence (and shorter CD) and there are times when a stun would be better than a silence, specifically against a druid that is running around where if you only silenced, you wouldn't be able to hit them to finish them off or if you needed to use it defensively against a rogue or a warrior who is beating on you to remove some pressure. (Or get them to waste cooldowns?)

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimeir View Post
    It's all situational. DA is better when you are constantly being slowed where as chillblains is better for peeling, specifically when you are not the one being focused.

    Death siphon has its niche as it is a ranged ability. Use howling blast when you have a fair bit of health, death siphon when you are dropping a bit.

    Asphyxiate is both a stun and silence (and shorter CD) and there are times when a stun would be better than a silence, specifically against a druid that is running around where if you only silenced, you wouldn't be able to hit them to finish them off or if you needed to use it defensively against a rogue or a warrior who is beating on you to remove some pressure. (Or get them to waste cooldowns?)
    Just quoting because its helping my point on this: As much as we are debating about what is "best" choice and people saying its "situational", is what I feel is intended by blizzard saying we have a choice in our talents. Now I will agree that they need tweaking and some of them are a bit lack luster. But unlike most other class's we do get pretty much every thing we need once we choose a spec, but those specs lack utility which is what our talents are pretty much all about.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to being Frost with UB, DA, Purgatory (for DPS raids dugeons) or AMZ (solo old raids), Death Sihpon and Conversion under the same concepts as the Purg/AMZ thing, and Gorefiends or Desecrated Ground- probably desecrated ground for both DPS/Solo raids as for my play style it will fit in a bit better. as for Rune regeneration, I'll probably go RC simply because i don't like the random-ness of RE, and blood tap is a wasted GCD for me- plus I like passive abilities a bit more than active ones.

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