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  1. #61
    Updated the OP with new updated information and facts about the talents that conclude that literally we have 100% no choice in our talents and it is all either mathed out or best for a particular spec.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    8-1-2012 -
    Note - I have updated this thread with all new information and factual evidence that backs up my claims that all talents are picked for us and we have 100% no choice in talents.

    ____

    I know that most of these issues have been presented in many other various threads but I just realized something and came up with a dramatic conclusion about Death Knights going into MoP.

    We have almost no choice in talents/glyphs at all.
    Lets break it down.

    ____

    Lets start with your talent grid.

    Tier 56 - This tier is all about spreading diseases. Then we have a talent in their called plaque leach which lets us obtain a Death Rune in return for diminishing the diseases on our current target. The automatic choice here is Plaque Leech do to the fact it gives us a death rune. The argument here is that we have plenty of other mechanics to spread diseases such as outbreak and pestilence so doing more dps is the obvious option.

    Tier 57 - Nothing really to discuss here. Purgatory will be mandatory for tanks who obviously want to survive and live long as possible. AMZ and LB are basically just their for PvP. Most if not all dps will choose AMZ in PvE because they will want that raid CD. There are no situations ever where a dps would want to use LB in raid situation. And of course a PvP player will always take LB.

    Tier 58 - Now this is a tricky tier because of the change to frost presence. Now that frost specialization is forced into frost presence we now lose the movement speed increase from unholy presence. Because of this, everyone will spec into death's advance for both PvE and PvP because of stacking speed increase buff even if you are unholy. Not to mention that glyph of DnD lets us slow anyways so CB is never an option. Asphyxiate which I bet sounded cool to everyone at first when it was announced but further glance you notice it gets rid of silence. No one will ever choose this outside of cosmetic playing around because we would rather have a silence+a movement increase than a stun that most are immune to anyways.

    Tier 60 - This is another no choice tier because it has already been mathed out. You are 99.9% of the time going to want to pick death pact because of the way it functions now. Being able to heal yourself for half your health instantly is an automatic win even if you are not unholy because raise undead is on a 2min CD same as DP. Conversion and Death Siphon are both useless in both PvP and PvE because they are a dps lost because they costs enormous amount of resources. Conversion might be used for leveling without having to wait and eat but even then Death Pact is better.

    Tier 75 - This has been discussed for months at it is pretty much unanimous at this point that no one wants this tier. Having to choose a core mechanic to decide how your runes regenerate is just not a good idea. I mean you wouldn't have a healer choose how the regenerate mana or a pally decide how they regenerate holy power right? This tier has already been mathed out as well. You are always going to pick RC if you are frost and RC if you are unholy just like it is on live. They need to go back to how it is on live currently. Make BT baseline and assign RC and RE back to frost and unholy respectively. Then replace these with 3 more interesting talents.

    Tier 90 - This is a completely useless tier, even for PvP players. Anyone who has played their death knight for more than 5 minutes can notice that these uninteresting 90 talents are just updates to talents we already have on live. Remorseless winter is actually just hungering cold except worse because of the ramp of time as where HC just had a 1.5s cast. Desecrated Ground is just desecration from the unholy tree on live except we are immune to CC which again isn't really a big deal we need to be mobile. Mass Death grip is cool, but again is auto choice for tanks. DpS could live without either of the other two.

    Now lets talk about glyphs.

    It has been discussed already that death knights just aren't getting any good interesting entertaining glyphs unlike other classes. Lets talk about mandatory glyphs.

    Glyph of AMS - Why would you not want this as tank or dps in PvE and PvP.

    Glyph of VP - I thought we were trying to avoid straight up bonuses to spells in MoP? All tanks will take this just like they do now on live

    Every other glyph is just iterations of things we already have on live, just boring.

    ____

    Death Knights have been voicing their issues for a long time on the beta forums and none of the issues have been addressed aside from number issues. Please give us interesting mechanics and abilities. Druids, warlocks, hunters, Spriests, and shamans have received borderline class overhauls while we are left with crappy talents we already have on live. Please Devs, fix us.
    Since you took the time to Edit it, I'm going to go through this in the same manner.




    Tier 56: teir Is NOT About SPREADING disease, but Diseases in General. Unholy Blight workes Like Outbreak, but for AoE packs- No Damage Component - This is about APPLYING diseases. Rolling Blood= Only spreads diseases if it Strikes a diseased target - this is about SPREADING based of a Damage component. Plague Leach - Is about Utilizing diseases about to "expire", giving 1(one) Death Rune for possible dps. When it comes to plague leach I only see this really viable if in an Execution phase and you want to get one more Soul Reaper In and you are certain what rune will become the Death Rune. Seems to me the Choice of talent is indeed a CHOICE nothing that says any one will 100% take "X" talent.

    Tier 57: Every thing you Said for this Teir is Highly Opinionated. From a PvP stand Point- All 3 are viable in drastically different Situations. Purgatory will be good against High burst teams with low consistency or Random BG's (for the non serious Pvp-ers). Lich Born Great For CC heavy Comps and clutch Healing to keep your self in the fight, AMZ for heavy Caster Comps. Admittedly AMZ seems to be "the weakest" in this tier for PvP. As For PvE- Purgatory will be good for both DPS and Tank- especially if Some one is being stupid in one way shape or form. Lich Born Will still be a great clutch Heal during movement phases, and is a great CC breaker for those few fights where a "fear/charm/sleep" component is present. AMZ will be great for heavy RAID WIDE magic damage. Still looking Like we have CHOICE of talent, and nothing is set 100% mandatory.

    Tier 58: You actually have some good points for this tier, but nothing you said makes any one of the 3 100% mandatory. Deaths Advance, I agree a bit of what you said, its Great for Pvp and PvE- constant move speed is great, and should/will stack with say movement speed enchants on boots- though I see more testing needed on this to be 100% certain of the things the Speed Increase will stack with. Chill Brains Has far more uses then you give it credit for. First it gives a Root component to a semi spam-able slow, and gives a slowing component to a semi spam-able dot. Granted Frost would benifit more from this talent choice than ither Blood or Unholy, that doesn't make it un-viable for those specs. This is also a great component for PvE and PvP, though still limited in both. Asphyxiate doesn't REMOVE the silence, but turn it into a stun & silence (silence comes on bosses that are immune to stun effects, but have spells/abilities that can be interrupted). It has ranged, its 5 seconds, that Makes it a VERY good talented CC for PvP, much better than the base strangulate which only silences, but allows players to move about. Still not seeing a 100% Mandatory talent here, so far you at 0% out of 300%.

    Tier 60: Here you say people will 99.9% pick Death Pact because the other 2 are DPS loses. Death pact matches the cooldown time on Raise Dead, which for blood and Frost will add another great "Oh shit" clutch heal, especially at 50% gain. this is Great PvP and PvE wise, however 2 minutes is a Long time to wait, especially when you can LB death Coil your self to full in 3~4 Seconds - Will probably Favor Unholy do to permanent ghoul and/or if it works on Army. Death Siphon Seems to fit tanking a Bit better, why- Two Fold threat. healing produces (at least used to not sure how true this is any more) more threat than strait damage, and has a damage component. Combined with Tank increased healing components, makes for a great self heal, and will using it on CD will probably help with the down time in that spec. However, it is Still Viable for DPS where survival is more important that producing 2% more damage. Conversion Will favor the spec that produces more runic power- Prob Frost. and will be a great Leveling talent to help with that down time. Also can be a great heal for PvP when your team is trying to "reset" or you can get away from the fight (Random BGs) and need to heal but don't want to sit and drink (rouge/druid crits on sitting targets). I'm going to say there is a 50% illusion of a mandatory Talent here, depending on spec- still not 100% though- that gives you 50% of 400.

    Tier 75: the math on this is based off of sims, however this tier is entirely based on what a player will feels is better or fits their play style better. Each person will have to do their own experiment with this teir- If a player is pulling 30k As Frost with RE, and 28K with RC (what you say is mandatory) what option do you think they will pick? I'm seeing a trend- Most of what your Saying is biased based on your own opinion- nothing here is 100% mandatory, will give you another 50% though only because BT is very lack luster and most players aren't considering it- 100% of 500.

    ========= I want to note that I do agree that this tier shouldn't exists as these talents should be base line an tied to a Spec- though in blizzards defense a lot of Unholy 4life or Frost 4life might try switching and will want to keep the rune regeneration mechanic that they are used too.=======

    Tier 90: What? Whole tier is useless, even for PvP? I'm sorry but that is 100% opinion based. Desecrated Ground- this is a GREAT talent for both PvP and PvE- gives us a possible 3rd CC immunity for heavy CC PvP battles/comps, and is still great for PvE where their is a constant CC mechanic- think fights Like p3 Ony- lots of fears. Remorseless Winter - Has a ramp up time which is a down side, but is still a great Talent for PvP and PvE. It is an AoE Slow that turn into an AoE root. Thats an improvement over Hungering Cold already, the slows and roots grant more PvP "up time" on enemy players and gives us 1 more cc ability. PvE will be great for Doing Large packs of mobs or Kiting for a dead hunter in Raids, especially if the root works in that setting. Gorefiend's Grasp is also very useful in PvP and PvE. For PvP, its grips both hostile and Friendly units within 20 yards of target to the same spot, Great for when you've just been stunned and can't quite catch the enemy running away, or for making sure your other melee switch to the right target, saving a cool down on them for more up time burst. Its use in PvE can be for those OH so annoying Ranged mobs out of range, or like the worms on that BWD fight- there are more uses but that's just a few.


    Hmm, after the final tier I see nothing that is 100% mandatory. Out of a possible 600%, you earned a 100%, broken down into two 50% on two different tiers. Right now every Player plays exactly the same spec, exactly to the same way to a certain degree - lag/response time - "oops"-es in rotations etc - blizzards stated goal in MoP is to give players a choice, which they have. However many in the community are looking at the talents and seeing option they would immediately choose and don't want to, or choose not to- put enough thought into why any one would want to choose any of the other options and believe that their is no choice and come to forums and complain or post in what appears to be anger.

    Also, your post that Other class's get this or get that, or are getting cool this or that. here's the thing, since DK's first apeared we have had some of the most unique abilities and spells IN GAME, and more often than not we don't NEED new abilities (like the Warlock overhaul) because our abilities are good, but need tweaking. As for the Glyph scenario - only a couple of classes got tons and tons of new glyphs - notably warlocks and druids (druid travel form mods at that). the rest only got a few, and many are just modified versions of Current Cata spells or Glyphs. Would it have been nice to have seen more than just the 2 (horn and Ghoul) cosmetic glyphs or a few remake glyphs? Yeah it would, but like I said, out side of a few exceptions we are in the same boat as the rest.

    Also, link a blue post where they say the intent in MoP is to avoid strait up bonuses to spells in MoP- because I know its not the case. Warriors, Shamans, and mages (only 3 class's I really look at from time to time) all have glyphs that have strait up bonuses to spells.

    Ok, think i'm done, theirs my 3.50 concerning your Opening Post.
    Last edited by Ichy; 2012-08-01 at 02:34 PM. Reason: had to edit color- original color choice was hard to read.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Blood is a raid-capable tank too.
    Raid capable? They are hands down the best tanks in Dragon Soul.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    Desecrated Ground- this is a GREAT talent for both PvP and PvE-
    I'll have what he's having!

    (Hint: It's crack.)

    Ichy, you have no clue what you're talking about. I was going to go through and respond to your post point by point, and had a whole paragraph written up, but I erased it when I realized that nearly everything you said is wrong. No, seriously. This is not an internet guy trying to troll you.

    I do admire your enthusiasm, though!
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-08-01 at 10:39 PM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Raid capable? They are hands down the best tanks in Dragon Soul.
    MoP however, they are not.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooprbamp View Post
    You do know that undead players are still under humanoid classification...?
    I think he's referring to the fear/charm/sleep break that the undead racial grants.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I'll have what he's having!

    (Hint: It's crack.)

    Ichy, you have no clue what you're talking about. I was going to go through and respond to your post point by point, and had a whole paragraph written up, but I erased it when I realized that nearly everything you said is wrong. No, seriously. This is not an internet guy trying to troll you.

    I do admire your enthusiasm, though!
    I got to agree, most of what you wrote is just wrong Ichy.

    EX. T90 is wholly a utility tier that PvE could more or less give a crap about, Remorseless Winter is preferred in PvE, for the add control (if your a tank since most mobs are immune to the grip of Gorfiends Grasp) and to keep up Frost Feaver, Desecrated Ground has no use outside PvP.

    Also you seem to be under the impression that GG grips both hostile and friendly targets, this is not the case. GG grips only Hostile to your target (Which can be friendly or hostile).
    Last edited by Kaosbringer; 2012-08-01 at 11:49 PM.

  8. #68
    Mechagnome Leviatharan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaosbringer View Post
    Remorseless Winter is preferred in PvE, for the add control (if your a tank since most mobs are immune to the grip of Gorfiends Grasp) and to keep up Frost Feaver
    Pretty sure RW never had anything to do with Frost Fever. :P
    Leviatharan - Level 90 Blood Elf Unholy/Frost Death Knight - Inscription/Herbalism - <Summit> - Drak'Tharon US

    Now author of Morbid Musings, a blog dedicated to DK theorycraft.

  9. #69
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    I sincerly don't see any useless talent, maybe there are talents that could be better, maybe some talent is mandatory according to our playstile and maybe some other talent is situational but all I see is what Blizz promised us: flexibility.

    Anyone else saying something different probably just whine as default mode and would wine even if Blizz would make us Uber-OP talents.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaosbringer View Post
    I got to agree, most of what you wrote is just wrong Ichy.

    EX. T90 is wholly a utility tier that PvE could more or less give a crap about, Remorseless Winter is preferred in PvE, for the add control (if your a tank since most mobs are immune to the grip of Gorfiends Grasp) and to keep up Frost Feaver, Desecrated Ground has no use outside PvP.

    Also you seem to be under the impression that GG grips both hostile and friendly targets, this is not the case. GG grips only Hostile to your target (Which can be friendly or hostile).
    I will admit that my idea of how GG works could be very wrong, thank you for clarifying. However, you are wrong saying that PvE doesn't give a crap about the t90 talents. I'm PvE (haven't cared for PvP much after the introduction of Arenas so long ago) and find that all 3 have uses. While both T90 and t75 do seem rather lack luster, your claim is still Opinionated. From a raid stand point- for tanking or dps- Desecrated Ground will be very useful for that fear/charm effect from boss's or Boss Adds. An example from old content- for mount farming or what have you - there is the Kael'thas fight- Caperinian casts conflag immediately once p3 Starts, most strats us AMS and burn her before it (ams) expires, but with DG we can just eat the magic damage and not worry about the loss of control and save AMS for the Other advisors Stun ability- Telonicus. I'm sure GG will get fixed to work in raids and RW will still find its uses for exactly what you said.

    @Schizoide- Your Claim that I have no clue what I'm talking about doesn't progress the discussion and is more of a jab or insult at me for expressing my opinion. The point of the MoP talent system is to move away from cookie cutter specs and give players Talent Choices, most coming to the forums are claiming this to be untrue because of very Opinionated reasons and narrow foresight. Many of the more popular arguments boil down to - ITS TOO SITUATIONAL, I WANT A TALENT THE WORKS ALL THE TIME!!. I admit that it would be nice to have talents that are usable 100% of the time, its just not the direction the Dev's want to take with our talents; this is more of an inference then an assumption after reviewing the changes we've seen over the beta lifetime and where the talents are at as the beta nears completion. So I implore you, TELL ME how I'm wrong, tell me how DG doesn't have any use and that RW/GG is 100% manditory for raiding (Just using t90 as it seems this is really where many people have problems with the talent system- out side of t75). As it stands, your post is just a troll post, with only a claim that I am wrong with no real evidence to the contrary.

  11. #71
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaosbringer View Post
    Also you seem to be under the impression that GG grips both hostile and friendly targets, this is not the case. GG grips only Hostile to your target (Which can be friendly or hostile).
    Has anyone used this to troll any group/guildmates on Beta? There has to be a way for me to get revenge on my life grip happy priest friend! They are wise to path of frost and brez so I need a new trick....

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  12. #72
    I don't believe that's true. GG can be cast on a friendly or enemy target, and it pulls enemy targets in. Otherwise if you cast it on an enemy, you would be pulled in too.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I don't believe that's true. GG can be cast on a friendly or enemy target, and it pulls enemy targets in. Otherwise if you cast it on an enemy, you would be pulled in too.
    That is what I am saying, it only pulls in hostile players/npcs.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    8-1-2012 -
    Note - I have updated this thread with all new information and factual evidence that backs up my claims that all talents are picked for us and we have 100% no choice in talents.

    ____

    I know that most of these issues have been presented in many other various threads but I just realized something and came up with a dramatic conclusion about Death Knights going into MoP.

    We have almost no choice in talents/glyphs at all.
    Lets break it down.

    ____

    Lets start with your talent grid.

    Tier 56 - This tier is all about spreading diseases. Then we have a talent in their called plaque leach which lets us obtain a Death Rune in return for diminishing the diseases on our current target. The automatic choice here is Plaque Leech do to the fact it gives us a death rune. The argument here is that we have plenty of other mechanics to spread diseases such as outbreak and pestilence so doing more dps is the obvious option.

    Tier 57 - Nothing really to discuss here. Purgatory will be mandatory for tanks who obviously want to survive and live long as possible. AMZ and LB are basically just their for PvP. Most if not all dps will choose AMZ in PvE because they will want that raid CD. There are no situations ever where a dps would want to use LB in raid situation. And of course a PvP player will always take LB.

    Tier 58 - Now this is a tricky tier because of the change to frost presence. Now that frost specialization is forced into frost presence we now lose the movement speed increase from unholy presence. Because of this, everyone will spec into death's advance for both PvE and PvP because of stacking speed increase buff even if you are unholy. Not to mention that glyph of DnD lets us slow anyways so CB is never an option. Asphyxiate which I bet sounded cool to everyone at first when it was announced but further glance you notice it gets rid of silence. No one will ever choose this outside of cosmetic playing around because we would rather have a silence+a movement increase than a stun that most are immune to anyways.

    Tier 60 - This is another no choice tier because it has already been mathed out. You are 99.9% of the time going to want to pick death pact because of the way it functions now. Being able to heal yourself for half your health instantly is an automatic win even if you are not unholy because raise undead is on a 2min CD same as DP. Conversion and Death Siphon are both useless in both PvP and PvE because they are a dps lost because they costs enormous amount of resources. Conversion might be used for leveling without having to wait and eat but even then Death Pact is better.

    Tier 75 - This has been discussed for months at it is pretty much unanimous at this point that no one wants this tier. Having to choose a core mechanic to decide how your runes regenerate is just not a good idea. I mean you wouldn't have a healer choose how the regenerate mana or a pally decide how they regenerate holy power right? This tier has already been mathed out as well. You are always going to pick RC if you are frost and RC if you are unholy just like it is on live. They need to go back to how it is on live currently. Make BT baseline and assign RC and RE back to frost and unholy respectively. Then replace these with 3 more interesting talents.

    Tier 90 - This is a completely useless tier, even for PvP players. Anyone who has played their death knight for more than 5 minutes can notice that these uninteresting 90 talents are just updates to talents we already have on live. Remorseless winter is actually just hungering cold except worse because of the ramp of time as where HC just had a 1.5s cast. Desecrated Ground is just desecration from the unholy tree on live except we are immune to CC which again isn't really a big deal we need to be mobile. Mass Death grip is cool, but again is auto choice for tanks. DpS could live without either of the other two.

    Now lets talk about glyphs.

    It has been discussed already that death knights just aren't getting any good interesting entertaining glyphs unlike other classes. Lets talk about mandatory glyphs.

    Glyph of AMS - Why would you not want this as tank or dps in PvE and PvP.

    Glyph of VP - I thought we were trying to avoid straight up bonuses to spells in MoP? All tanks will take this just like they do now on live

    Every other glyph is just iterations of things we already have on live, just boring.

    ____

    Death Knights have been voicing their issues for a long time on the beta forums and none of the issues have been addressed aside from number issues. Please give us interesting mechanics and abilities. Druids, warlocks, hunters, Spriests, and shamans have received borderline class overhauls while we are left with crappy talents we already have on live. Please Devs, fix us.

    Actually, no. I would pick RW over GG any day for mobility. GG has no taunt effect and you can place your DnD pretty much anywhere you want, so using it to pull mobs to you and then wasting a threat AoE move is redunant. Especially when you can just DnD straight away and spare a GCD.

    I see it more like a PvP/ fun-talent, definitely not a FoTE tanking talent.

  15. #75
    This thread needs to be highlighted. So much truth in it, I can't believe Blizzard actually thought it was a good idea putting the random rune generating passive's as a talent tier for us to choose between. Why, oh WHY can't we have it like it used to be, RE baseline and let us just have a glyph to turn it into RC (like it used to be a talent deep in the unholy tree) - and return blood tap to what it previously was. Death rune on demand with a cooldown.

    And the level 60 talent tier, why can't it be a theme of let's say mobility like paladin, warriors etc got. Instead we have to choose between mobility (altough quite bad), snare or on-demand cc that we lack... sigh, hope this changes in WoD. /rant done

    Edit: not that it's necessarily related to all this, but Empower Rune Weapon has got to be the least satisfying 5min cooldown to use in the entire game. Then again, blizzard still punishes death knight's since their glorious "OP"-days in early WotLK so doubt they are gonna change this laughable "cooldown".
    Last edited by Balibapo; 2014-01-19 at 12:42 PM.

  16. #76
    Holy necro batman.

  17. #77
    Still highly relevant. Doesn't change that.

  18. #78
    They need to fix our 75/90 talents badly. We have the least interesting max level talents in MoP and none of them do damage or increase our damage with a cooldown. This is something that seriously needs to be addressed in the WoD beta. They are completely situational and outside of GG in pve most of them are absolutely pointless.

    It's actually insanely discouraging seeing that every other class has some form of damage increase by max talents(whether it be a cooldown or extra ability) yet dk's don't get anything but cc or immunity out of ours.

  19. #79
    The Patient
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    Another thing that should be done but seems to be only sparsely mentioned: Make all three talents in T57 (Lichborne, Purgatory, AMZ) baseline.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Another thing that should be done but seems to be only sparsely mentioned: Make all three talents in T57 (Lichborne, Purgatory, AMZ) baseline.
    I could see AMZ and lichborn but purgatory I dont know. While it's saved my ass from time to time, I dont think they want to give another class a baseline cheat death mechanic.

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