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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    I agree, but it's still better than how it currently is.
    IMO (currently playing blood in beta and play blood in live) I agree to some point but disagree to some other point. I find that survivability for blood is still very good in beta as it stands but find myself at times glad I know what to pick. IMO someone first getting into this class that isn't familiar with it can very easily choose the wrong choices and seriously ruin the fun this class is. As posted before if tier75 was redone and fixed then it wouldn't be as deadly to choose the wrong thing in that tier. I like the way runes work right now but in beta i don't really care for it when I'm in frost spec in beta. In beta, IMO, the rune system feels very clunky.thats really the only thing I don't like about the changes made besides the obvious craptastic choices for the 2 end tier talents. In my opinion

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It is indeed an improvement. But it hasn't lived up to the original description. The MoP talent system is brilliant, but the implementation sucks.
    This has been one of the games biggest problems- Great ideas, poor Implementation. Now before I get called a hypocrite, I never once said that our talents were great, they are very lack luster, but for what we have, we still have a choice. That choice is what i'm arguing.

    So you're saying that as a DPS spec, you regularly traded-off DPS to heal yourself in Cataclysm raid content?

    Of course these abilities are situationally valuable. They always have been. You want to heal yourself after dropping to 1HP on Chimaeron before the stacking phase, for example. There's no reason for DPS players to tradeoff DPS in the vast majority of fights. You didn't see rets using selfless healer, or DPS DKs death striking, or shamans healing waving themselves, etc. It just wasn't necessary. The healers would take care of it, no problem.

    If you pre-suppose that the healers are incompetent, that changes the equation. But there's no real point in going down that road.
    Early in Cata, I did see that- was on a very low pop server which had only 1 guild that didn't have at least 2 players that ALWAYS played sub par. Your notion of a DPS player having no reason to trade off DPS for survive-ablity is kind of skewed in my opinion - not saying its wrong, but doesn't feel 100% right either. That notion puts a lot of strain on players already playing a semi stressful- at least more so than DPS- role. As a Dps if I can alleviate that stress just a little but buy keeping my self up so that healers have more mana for huge damage spikes to the tank or rest of the raid. Is it needed this late in content, probably 98% no, but come MoP when people are having to re-adjust to the all the changes and people are learning fights and developing strats- does it help? In my opinion it does, but as you said, our talents are situational- and come end of mop probably won't be needed and will hopefully have gone through some more changes by that time.

  3. #43
    Healing was much more difficult in 4.0 than 4.3 or 5.0. It was like an entirely different game in terms of difficulty and running OOM. That said, my guild had competent healers and I never needed to tradeoff DPS for healing except in situations like Chimaeron where it's part of the encounter. It's best to approach it assuming competence in raiding.

    Of course you can't assume competence in LFD or LFR, but that content is trivially easy so it won't be a problem there either.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-07-30 at 10:14 PM.

  4. #44
    While I don't think its as bad as people are making it out to be, I would have loved more "cool" stuff. I know, "cool stuff" is vague but for crying out loud at least give DT a new model for geist.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seruketo View Post
    While I don't think its as bad as people are making it out to be, I would have loved more "cool" stuff. I know, "cool stuff" is vague but for crying out loud at least give DT a new model for geist.
    ya know what would be cool for that? how about a mini LK as a goul? that would be awesome! summons a mini arthus? who wouldn't love that?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Healing was much more difficult in 4.0 than 4.3 or 5.0. It was like an entirely different game in terms of difficulty and running OOM. That said, my guild had competent healers and I never needed to tradeoff DPS for healing except in situations like Chimaeron where it's part of the encounter. It's best to approach it assuming competence in raiding.

    Of course you can't assume competence in LFD or LFR, but that content is trivially easy so it won't be a problem there either.
    Agreed entirely, I've recently had the fortune of switching to a higher pop server- Illidian- where finding 5 to 20 additional people that don't play sub par all time isn't a problem (have 5-6 people I group with usually at the beginning of an expansion that gets reduced to 2 or 3 because the game gets "stale" after a while- which I do have to admit happens to me as well)

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It is indeed an improvement. But it hasn't lived up to the original description. The MoP talent system is brilliant, but the implementation sucks.
    ^this. Blizz has the right idea, but have failed miserably to deliver on their promise.

    I also want to mention the situational talent choices (like Chilibans for AoE slows as frost). These should not be counted as a choice, main because we are switch one talent for a mandatory talent for a particular fight. Well this is fine, these should not work in favor of Blizzards design choices.
    Last edited by Kaosbringer; 2012-07-30 at 11:46 PM.

  8. #48
    See, I don't mind those tiers as much.

    Sure, lichborne and AMZ are highly situational, but Purgatory isn't. That tier has a default choice.

    Same thing with the next tier. Chilblains and particularly Asphyxiate as situational as hell, but Death's Advance is a good default choice.

    What really grinds my gears is the L75 tier, where we're forced to pick a specific talent, and the L90 tier, where all three chocies are highly situational and there's no default choice.

  9. #49
    T1: is a matter of personal desease spreading choice. I guess Plague Leach play it roll while switching from almost dead target to a new one(take in account the GCD for desease application). UB somewhat AoE CD and Rolling blood looks like an obvious choice for tanking (Blood Boil damage been increased).

    T2: Lichborne, meh never liked this talent due the GCD and the unknown RP amount factor for DC. AMZ look like it basic absorb is buffed and probably can be used as 2nd AMS/somewhat party CD or puting it on a tank with low magic mitigation. Death Siphon is tactical range heal/totem killer if you have no suitable rune. It scales with frost/UH mastery.

    T3eath Advance is balanced pvp/pve talent and we still have the basic Chain of Ice- along with Death Advance activation( 30%) and Remorsless Winter i'd say it works pretty well. I guess Chillblains has it use in area PvP(BG) and very situational raiding evirnonment adds requires CC ( i think there is a boss with elemental adds need kiting).
    Asphyxiate is for tactical usage in 3v3 arenas presume someone else provides slow-lock effect.

    T4: Simply playstyle although i agree with 100% of the community who demend to bring back good old blood tap. theory crafting defer RC and RE with .% with is VERY marginal.
    RC take advatage for tanking after the removal of BT well i like it. Some pro tetris players might keep sticking with the RE.

    T5: Gorefiend is a fun skill with powerful lifegriping properties. kinda usefull for both PvE and PvP situations. Remorseless winter and Desecrated Ground are very situational. I'd pick the first for tanking CC cd while the 2nd i'd pick for flag defending in BG for example. its very powerful for pvp imo.

    In conclusion,while non of those choices will make real difference in PvE envirnoment yet in PvP imo we got more choices than any other classes. Yes, some of the skill choices are without sense to stick together in the same tier, i agree, but still there are no obvious choices. I disagree with DA is above Chillblains because Chillblains is better for AoE slowiing like in BGs there macro skills and strategy are above microing.

    P.S. Stop complaining about not getting damage abilities in last tier. we freaking got Soul Reaper.... finally a finsher for DKs you should rejoice.
    Last edited by Jackkernaut; 2012-07-31 at 01:31 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by thelordymir View Post
    Except this isnt the case at all. In WoTLK we were super OP at the start, nerfed down at the end. Come Cata we were pretty OP in PvE then OP in PvP and then nerfed down completely in both to where we are the easiest targets to center on in pvp. Different for tanks i'm sure, but for pve dps and pvp it's always been OP >> Nerfed
    I'm so glad someone caught this. We are always much better at the start than compared to the shell of the class we were at the end. Excluding blood right now, of course.

  11. #51
    From the PvE side, unholy is fine right now. It's actually one of the better specs. DW frost is way behind, and 2H frost has been garbage since 4.0. Blood is a raid-capable tank too.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by JackTheLad View Post
    T1: is a matter of personal desease spreading choice. I guess Plague Leach play it roll while switching from almost dead target to a new one(take in account the GCD for desease application). UB somewhat AoE CD and Rolling blood looks like an obvious choice for tanking (Blood Boil damage been increased).
    Unfortunately that is wrong. PL is mandatory for DPS spec and to be used when disease are about to fall of (3s or so I think) so that we get the extra Death Rune, which equals more DPS. Some Tanks may even want this over UB or Rolling Blood (think thats whats its called) for flexibility.

    PL is the the worst change in that tier (replaced Corps Explosion). Simply for the fact that it was suppose to be disease spreading tier, but PL consumes diseases and gives DPS.
    Last edited by Kaosbringer; 2012-07-31 at 04:01 AM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Baphomette View Post
    DA is more mandatory than chilblains. PVPing without chilblains will suck less than PVPing without DA in almost all situations.
    I am not so sure about that. If you have been playing frost on live you have been playing without DA already. I have been pvping as frost and having a hard time adjusting to DA. Using a frost rune to keep chains up is eating my dps especially when I am trying to peel multiples. Not having the roots on chain is a big problem for me right now, I had a rogue run from me the other day in a WSG match at like 4% life all across the map. He was sprinting away each application of chains I did and I could not catch up to him with DA sprint. Had I been able to root him he would have died.

    I still think the passive slow of Howling blast with the root component of chains is still bigger than the 70% of DA. Although it will hurt losing the passive 10% speed since we have to play in frost presence now. I am thinking that if you are used to playing as frost then you are used to the chains root utility.

    Of course it could also be that I am just having a harder time than most adjusting to DA uses.


    PvP wise though, I don't think anyone will take anything other than lichborne. Especially with AMS energizing us baseline now, lichborne is a big deal for all three specs. Asphyxiate will never be used. Death pact is the obvious choice mainly because of the low healing of siphon (and loss of damage) and the way conversion stops our rune generation and our damage. Most people will probably take empowerment now. Blood tap is dead now that it is on the GCD, but it was head and shoulders above the rest before. I can't imagine DKs not taking a second trinket in desecrated ground. It would even be so much stronger for the humans....

    Yup, PvP wise DKs are predictable to opponents so that "have to figure out how he is specced" meta game will not work for us.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 01:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    I mean you're not going to pick RC or RE over blood tap as a tank are you?
    FYI, no one will be choosing blood tap. NO ONE. It is on GCD now so it is very useless for tanks and dps will probably want corruption and pvpers probably want empowerment.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    I am not so sure about that. If you have been playing frost on live you have been playing without DA already. I have been pvping as frost and having a hard time adjusting to DA. Using a frost rune to keep chains up is eating my dps especially when I am trying to peel multiples. Not having the roots on chain is a big problem for me right now, I had a rogue run from me the other day in a WSG match at like 4% life all across the map. He was sprinting away each application of chains I did and I could not catch up to him with DA sprint. Had I been able to root him he would have died.

    I still think the passive slow of Howling blast with the root component of chains is still bigger than the 70% of DA. Although it will hurt losing the passive 10% speed since we have to play in frost presence now. I am thinking that if you are used to playing as frost then you are used to the chains root utility.

    Of course it could also be that I am just having a harder time than most adjusting to DA uses.


    PvP wise though, I don't think anyone will take anything other than lichborne. Especially with AMS energizing us baseline now, lichborne is a big deal for all three specs. Asphyxiate will never be used. Death pact is the obvious choice mainly because of the low healing of siphon (and loss of damage) and the way conversion stops our rune generation and our damage. Most people will probably take empowerment now. Blood tap is dead now that it is on the GCD, but it was head and shoulders above the rest before. I can't imagine DKs not taking a second trinket in desecrated ground. It would even be so much stronger for the humans....

    Yup, PvP wise DKs are predictable to opponents so that "have to figure out how he is specced" meta game will not work for us.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 01:54 PM ----------



    FYI, no one will be choosing blood tap. NO ONE. It is on GCD now so it is very useless for tanks and dps will probably want corruption and pvpers probably want empowerment.
    It's all situational. DA is better when you are constantly being slowed where as chillblains is better for peeling, specifically when you are not the one being focused.

    Death siphon has its niche as it is a ranged ability. Use howling blast when you have a fair bit of health, death siphon when you are dropping a bit.

    Asphyxiate is both a stun and silence (and shorter CD) and there are times when a stun would be better than a silence, specifically against a druid that is running around where if you only silenced, you wouldn't be able to hit them to finish them off or if you needed to use it defensively against a rogue or a warrior who is beating on you to remove some pressure. (Or get them to waste cooldowns?)

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimeir View Post
    It's all situational. DA is better when you are constantly being slowed where as chillblains is better for peeling, specifically when you are not the one being focused.

    Death siphon has its niche as it is a ranged ability. Use howling blast when you have a fair bit of health, death siphon when you are dropping a bit.

    Asphyxiate is both a stun and silence (and shorter CD) and there are times when a stun would be better than a silence, specifically against a druid that is running around where if you only silenced, you wouldn't be able to hit them to finish them off or if you needed to use it defensively against a rogue or a warrior who is beating on you to remove some pressure. (Or get them to waste cooldowns?)
    Just quoting because its helping my point on this: As much as we are debating about what is "best" choice and people saying its "situational", is what I feel is intended by blizzard saying we have a choice in our talents. Now I will agree that they need tweaking and some of them are a bit lack luster. But unlike most other class's we do get pretty much every thing we need once we choose a spec, but those specs lack utility which is what our talents are pretty much all about.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to being Frost with UB, DA, Purgatory (for DPS raids dugeons) or AMZ (solo old raids), Death Sihpon and Conversion under the same concepts as the Purg/AMZ thing, and Gorefiends or Desecrated Ground- probably desecrated ground for both DPS/Solo raids as for my play style it will fit in a bit better. as for Rune regeneration, I'll probably go RC simply because i don't like the random-ness of RE, and blood tap is a wasted GCD for me- plus I like passive abilities a bit more than active ones.

  16. #56
    Updated the OP with new updated information and facts about the talents that conclude that literally we have 100% no choice in our talents and it is all either mathed out or best for a particular spec.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    8-1-2012 -
    Note - I have updated this thread with all new information and factual evidence that backs up my claims that all talents are picked for us and we have 100% no choice in talents.

    ____

    I know that most of these issues have been presented in many other various threads but I just realized something and came up with a dramatic conclusion about Death Knights going into MoP.

    We have almost no choice in talents/glyphs at all.
    Lets break it down.

    ____

    Lets start with your talent grid.

    Tier 56 - This tier is all about spreading diseases. Then we have a talent in their called plaque leach which lets us obtain a Death Rune in return for diminishing the diseases on our current target. The automatic choice here is Plaque Leech do to the fact it gives us a death rune. The argument here is that we have plenty of other mechanics to spread diseases such as outbreak and pestilence so doing more dps is the obvious option.

    Tier 57 - Nothing really to discuss here. Purgatory will be mandatory for tanks who obviously want to survive and live long as possible. AMZ and LB are basically just their for PvP. Most if not all dps will choose AMZ in PvE because they will want that raid CD. There are no situations ever where a dps would want to use LB in raid situation. And of course a PvP player will always take LB.

    Tier 58 - Now this is a tricky tier because of the change to frost presence. Now that frost specialization is forced into frost presence we now lose the movement speed increase from unholy presence. Because of this, everyone will spec into death's advance for both PvE and PvP because of stacking speed increase buff even if you are unholy. Not to mention that glyph of DnD lets us slow anyways so CB is never an option. Asphyxiate which I bet sounded cool to everyone at first when it was announced but further glance you notice it gets rid of silence. No one will ever choose this outside of cosmetic playing around because we would rather have a silence+a movement increase than a stun that most are immune to anyways.

    Tier 60 - This is another no choice tier because it has already been mathed out. You are 99.9% of the time going to want to pick death pact because of the way it functions now. Being able to heal yourself for half your health instantly is an automatic win even if you are not unholy because raise undead is on a 2min CD same as DP. Conversion and Death Siphon are both useless in both PvP and PvE because they are a dps lost because they costs enormous amount of resources. Conversion might be used for leveling without having to wait and eat but even then Death Pact is better.

    Tier 75 - This has been discussed for months at it is pretty much unanimous at this point that no one wants this tier. Having to choose a core mechanic to decide how your runes regenerate is just not a good idea. I mean you wouldn't have a healer choose how the regenerate mana or a pally decide how they regenerate holy power right? This tier has already been mathed out as well. You are always going to pick RC if you are frost and RC if you are unholy just like it is on live. They need to go back to how it is on live currently. Make BT baseline and assign RC and RE back to frost and unholy respectively. Then replace these with 3 more interesting talents.

    Tier 90 - This is a completely useless tier, even for PvP players. Anyone who has played their death knight for more than 5 minutes can notice that these uninteresting 90 talents are just updates to talents we already have on live. Remorseless winter is actually just hungering cold except worse because of the ramp of time as where HC just had a 1.5s cast. Desecrated Ground is just desecration from the unholy tree on live except we are immune to CC which again isn't really a big deal we need to be mobile. Mass Death grip is cool, but again is auto choice for tanks. DpS could live without either of the other two.

    Now lets talk about glyphs.

    It has been discussed already that death knights just aren't getting any good interesting entertaining glyphs unlike other classes. Lets talk about mandatory glyphs.

    Glyph of AMS - Why would you not want this as tank or dps in PvE and PvP.

    Glyph of VP - I thought we were trying to avoid straight up bonuses to spells in MoP? All tanks will take this just like they do now on live

    Every other glyph is just iterations of things we already have on live, just boring.

    ____

    Death Knights have been voicing their issues for a long time on the beta forums and none of the issues have been addressed aside from number issues. Please give us interesting mechanics and abilities. Druids, warlocks, hunters, Spriests, and shamans have received borderline class overhauls while we are left with crappy talents we already have on live. Please Devs, fix us.
    Since you took the time to Edit it, I'm going to go through this in the same manner.




    Tier 56: teir Is NOT About SPREADING disease, but Diseases in General. Unholy Blight workes Like Outbreak, but for AoE packs- No Damage Component - This is about APPLYING diseases. Rolling Blood= Only spreads diseases if it Strikes a diseased target - this is about SPREADING based of a Damage component. Plague Leach - Is about Utilizing diseases about to "expire", giving 1(one) Death Rune for possible dps. When it comes to plague leach I only see this really viable if in an Execution phase and you want to get one more Soul Reaper In and you are certain what rune will become the Death Rune. Seems to me the Choice of talent is indeed a CHOICE nothing that says any one will 100% take "X" talent.

    Tier 57: Every thing you Said for this Teir is Highly Opinionated. From a PvP stand Point- All 3 are viable in drastically different Situations. Purgatory will be good against High burst teams with low consistency or Random BG's (for the non serious Pvp-ers). Lich Born Great For CC heavy Comps and clutch Healing to keep your self in the fight, AMZ for heavy Caster Comps. Admittedly AMZ seems to be "the weakest" in this tier for PvP. As For PvE- Purgatory will be good for both DPS and Tank- especially if Some one is being stupid in one way shape or form. Lich Born Will still be a great clutch Heal during movement phases, and is a great CC breaker for those few fights where a "fear/charm/sleep" component is present. AMZ will be great for heavy RAID WIDE magic damage. Still looking Like we have CHOICE of talent, and nothing is set 100% mandatory.

    Tier 58: You actually have some good points for this tier, but nothing you said makes any one of the 3 100% mandatory. Deaths Advance, I agree a bit of what you said, its Great for Pvp and PvE- constant move speed is great, and should/will stack with say movement speed enchants on boots- though I see more testing needed on this to be 100% certain of the things the Speed Increase will stack with. Chill Brains Has far more uses then you give it credit for. First it gives a Root component to a semi spam-able slow, and gives a slowing component to a semi spam-able dot. Granted Frost would benifit more from this talent choice than ither Blood or Unholy, that doesn't make it un-viable for those specs. This is also a great component for PvE and PvP, though still limited in both. Asphyxiate doesn't REMOVE the silence, but turn it into a stun & silence (silence comes on bosses that are immune to stun effects, but have spells/abilities that can be interrupted). It has ranged, its 5 seconds, that Makes it a VERY good talented CC for PvP, much better than the base strangulate which only silences, but allows players to move about. Still not seeing a 100% Mandatory talent here, so far you at 0% out of 300%.

    Tier 60: Here you say people will 99.9% pick Death Pact because the other 2 are DPS loses. Death pact matches the cooldown time on Raise Dead, which for blood and Frost will add another great "Oh shit" clutch heal, especially at 50% gain. this is Great PvP and PvE wise, however 2 minutes is a Long time to wait, especially when you can LB death Coil your self to full in 3~4 Seconds - Will probably Favor Unholy do to permanent ghoul and/or if it works on Army. Death Siphon Seems to fit tanking a Bit better, why- Two Fold threat. healing produces (at least used to not sure how true this is any more) more threat than strait damage, and has a damage component. Combined with Tank increased healing components, makes for a great self heal, and will using it on CD will probably help with the down time in that spec. However, it is Still Viable for DPS where survival is more important that producing 2% more damage. Conversion Will favor the spec that produces more runic power- Prob Frost. and will be a great Leveling talent to help with that down time. Also can be a great heal for PvP when your team is trying to "reset" or you can get away from the fight (Random BGs) and need to heal but don't want to sit and drink (rouge/druid crits on sitting targets). I'm going to say there is a 50% illusion of a mandatory Talent here, depending on spec- still not 100% though- that gives you 50% of 400.

    Tier 75: the math on this is based off of sims, however this tier is entirely based on what a player will feels is better or fits their play style better. Each person will have to do their own experiment with this teir- If a player is pulling 30k As Frost with RE, and 28K with RC (what you say is mandatory) what option do you think they will pick? I'm seeing a trend- Most of what your Saying is biased based on your own opinion- nothing here is 100% mandatory, will give you another 50% though only because BT is very lack luster and most players aren't considering it- 100% of 500.

    ========= I want to note that I do agree that this tier shouldn't exists as these talents should be base line an tied to a Spec- though in blizzards defense a lot of Unholy 4life or Frost 4life might try switching and will want to keep the rune regeneration mechanic that they are used too.=======

    Tier 90: What? Whole tier is useless, even for PvP? I'm sorry but that is 100% opinion based. Desecrated Ground- this is a GREAT talent for both PvP and PvE- gives us a possible 3rd CC immunity for heavy CC PvP battles/comps, and is still great for PvE where their is a constant CC mechanic- think fights Like p3 Ony- lots of fears. Remorseless Winter - Has a ramp up time which is a down side, but is still a great Talent for PvP and PvE. It is an AoE Slow that turn into an AoE root. Thats an improvement over Hungering Cold already, the slows and roots grant more PvP "up time" on enemy players and gives us 1 more cc ability. PvE will be great for Doing Large packs of mobs or Kiting for a dead hunter in Raids, especially if the root works in that setting. Gorefiend's Grasp is also very useful in PvP and PvE. For PvP, its grips both hostile and Friendly units within 20 yards of target to the same spot, Great for when you've just been stunned and can't quite catch the enemy running away, or for making sure your other melee switch to the right target, saving a cool down on them for more up time burst. Its use in PvE can be for those OH so annoying Ranged mobs out of range, or like the worms on that BWD fight- there are more uses but that's just a few.


    Hmm, after the final tier I see nothing that is 100% mandatory. Out of a possible 600%, you earned a 100%, broken down into two 50% on two different tiers. Right now every Player plays exactly the same spec, exactly to the same way to a certain degree - lag/response time - "oops"-es in rotations etc - blizzards stated goal in MoP is to give players a choice, which they have. However many in the community are looking at the talents and seeing option they would immediately choose and don't want to, or choose not to- put enough thought into why any one would want to choose any of the other options and believe that their is no choice and come to forums and complain or post in what appears to be anger.

    Also, your post that Other class's get this or get that, or are getting cool this or that. here's the thing, since DK's first apeared we have had some of the most unique abilities and spells IN GAME, and more often than not we don't NEED new abilities (like the Warlock overhaul) because our abilities are good, but need tweaking. As for the Glyph scenario - only a couple of classes got tons and tons of new glyphs - notably warlocks and druids (druid travel form mods at that). the rest only got a few, and many are just modified versions of Current Cata spells or Glyphs. Would it have been nice to have seen more than just the 2 (horn and Ghoul) cosmetic glyphs or a few remake glyphs? Yeah it would, but like I said, out side of a few exceptions we are in the same boat as the rest.

    Also, link a blue post where they say the intent in MoP is to avoid strait up bonuses to spells in MoP- because I know its not the case. Warriors, Shamans, and mages (only 3 class's I really look at from time to time) all have glyphs that have strait up bonuses to spells.

    Ok, think i'm done, theirs my 3.50 concerning your Opening Post.
    Last edited by Ichy; 2012-08-01 at 02:34 PM. Reason: had to edit color- original color choice was hard to read.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Blood is a raid-capable tank too.
    Raid capable? They are hands down the best tanks in Dragon Soul.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    Desecrated Ground- this is a GREAT talent for both PvP and PvE-
    I'll have what he's having!

    (Hint: It's crack.)

    Ichy, you have no clue what you're talking about. I was going to go through and respond to your post point by point, and had a whole paragraph written up, but I erased it when I realized that nearly everything you said is wrong. No, seriously. This is not an internet guy trying to troll you.

    I do admire your enthusiasm, though!
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-08-01 at 10:39 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Raid capable? They are hands down the best tanks in Dragon Soul.
    MoP however, they are not.

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