Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Balibapo View Post
    This thread needs to be highlighted. So much truth in it, I can't believe Blizzard actually thought it was a good idea putting the random rune generating passive's as a talent tier for us to choose between. Why, oh WHY can't we have it like it used to be, RE baseline and let us just have a glyph to turn it into RC (like it used to be a talent deep in the unholy tree) - and return blood tap to what it previously was. Death rune on demand with a cooldown.

    And the level 60 talent tier, why can't it be a theme of let's say mobility like paladin, warriors etc got. Instead we have to choose between mobility (altough quite bad), snare or on-demand cc that we lack... sigh, hope this changes in WoD. /rant done

    Edit: not that it's necessarily related to all this, but Empower Rune Weapon has got to be the least satisfying 5min cooldown to use in the entire game. Then again, blizzard still punishes death knight's since their glorious "OP"-days in early WotLK so doubt they are gonna change this laughable "cooldown".
    What the hell man? There are rules around here about thread necros.

    This thread isn't full of truth and certainly doesn't need to be highlighted - it's just someone whining that DK talents and glyphs are not exactly what he wants.

    You are doing that classic move where you just directly compare one little piece of one thing to another little piece of some other without looking at the whole package; there's an excellent reason why we get a choice between an MS steroid, a spammable slow and a stun - we have death grip, paladins and warriors don't.

    Why do you think all of the warrior's mobility talents affect charge, instead of giving them another movement ability like DK or paladin can get? Because they fucking have heroic leap. You can't just willy-nilly throw shit out there like that.

    Regarding the rune talents - you know good and well why none of them are base-line and they're all optional; we'd be significantly more powerful with TWO ways to keep getting runes back instead of one and this gives you freedom to have rolling rune haste in frost or blood and not just unholy or you can have full control with blood tap. The rune talents are by no means perfect but that doesn't make them horrible.

    Lastly, ERW may not be some simple-to-read FUCKYOU button but it's still a pretty strong ability and if you equate what it does with damage or mitigation numbers, you get a decent roll-out though I don't know that it's quite as beefy as some other 5 min abilities - but again, we can't just compare everyone's 5 min CDs and say "OMG ERW IS POOP BECAUSE ____ IS BETTER."

    So yeah...the class has its problems but what you're looking at are pretty minor ones and the OP isn't some profound genius who figured out the answer to the problem with our class - he just wants us to be his way and while that's fine to want, it by no means makes him right.
    Last edited by Olrox; 2014-01-19 at 06:05 PM.
    Signature dunked by a lame MMO Champ robot.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Olrox View Post
    What the hell man? There are rules around here about thread necros.

    This thread isn't full of truth and certainly doesn't need to be highlighted - it's just someone whining that DK talents and glyphs are not exactly what he wants.

    You are doing that classic move where you just directly compare one little piece of one thing to another little piece of some other without looking at the whole package; there's an excellent reason why we get a choice between an MS steroid, a spammable slow and a stun - we have death grip, paladins and warriors don't.

    Why do you think all of the warrior's mobility talents affect charge, instead of giving them another movement ability like DK or paladin can get? Because they fucking have heroic leap. You can't just willy-nilly throw shit out there like that.

    Regarding the rune talents - you know good and well why none of them are base-line and they're all optional; we'd be significantly more powerful with TWO ways to keep getting runes back instead of one and this gives you freedom to have rolling rune haste in frost or blood and not just unholy or you can have full control with blood tap. The rune talents are by no means perfect but that doesn't make them horrible.

    Lastly, ERW may not be some simple-to-read FUCKYOU button but it's still a pretty strong ability and if you equate what it does with damage or mitigation numbers, you get a decent roll-out though I don't know that it's quite as beefy as some other 5 min abilities - but again, we can't just compare everyone's 5 min CDs and say "OMG ERW IS POOP BECAUSE ____ IS BETTER."

    So yeah...the class has its problems but what you're looking at are pretty minor ones and the OP isn't some profound genius who figured out the answer to the problem with our class - he just wants us to be his way and while that's fine to want, it by no means makes him right.
    Tha class has major problems you're just too naive to realize it. For what ERW does, it should be a 3 minute cooldown. It feels good for frost with the galakras trinket, but when I play unholy going back to five minutes is just terrible. The rune regen section is absolutely terrible. There should be one baseline and one other that you can glyph. The orignal blood tap was never overpowered it just granted you a death rune if you needed it. It was essentially an oh shit I ran out of resources button and all I have is an unholy rune(speaking as a frost dk). Our tree as a whole is a mess, there is no reason to have a stun, snare and movement increase in the same level bracket.

  3. #83
    The Patient Xekus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    258
    Eh, OP do kinda have a point.
    Our talent trees do feel rather lackluster and pretty shit when it comes to choice in PvE, compared to other classes atleast as i feel it.


    Plenty of our talents are completely ignored on both PvE and PvP, you dont pick Lichborne or desecrated ground for PvE as an example, where other classes talents are all rounded and its more what you want to play with, while we are "forced" into picking certain talents.

    Lichborne, RC(to some extent), Desecrated ground and Rolling blood(unless your blood) are talents that you pretty much ignore completely in PvE.
    Either those talents are shit, or the other options are simply much better and rendering those useless.
    There is no true "choice" as blizzard wanted it to be, other classes actually do have a choice in what they pick, we? Not so much.

    That they put a "raid cd" and two defensive cooldowns, where one is purely PvP in the same bracket just shows how badly designed our current talent tree is.

  4. #84
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Look behind you, and into the distance
    Posts
    286
    Quote Originally Posted by Xekus View Post
    Eh, OP do kinda have a point.
    Our talent trees do feel rather lackluster and pretty shit when it comes to choice in PvE, compared to other classes atleast as i feel it.


    Plenty of our talents are completely ignored on both PvE and PvP, you dont pick Lichborne or desecrated ground for PvE as an example, where other classes talents are all rounded and its more what you want to play with, while we are "forced" into picking certain talents.

    Lichborne, RC(to some extent), Desecrated ground and Rolling blood(unless your blood) are talents that you pretty much ignore completely in PvE.
    Either those talents are shit, or the other options are simply much better and rendering those useless.
    There is no true "choice" as blizzard wanted it to be, other classes actually do have a choice in what they pick, we? Not so much.

    That they put a "raid cd" and two defensive cooldowns, where one is purely PvP in the same bracket just shows how badly designed our current talent tree is.
    Lichborne is not completely useless in PvE - it's very good for certain bosses, like Sha of Fear.

  5. #85
    The Patient Xekus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    258
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Lichborne is not completely useless in PvE - it's very good for certain bosses, like Sha of Fear.
    So, 1 fight it may be useful? eh sounds rather bad too me, would never pick it over AMZ or purgatory on sha anyways.

    Point being, Blizzard preach about "choice"
    They changed the talent system because previously everybody just followed a cookie cutter build, and when i look at our current talents i dont really see we having that much choice compared to other classes, which is sad and imo blizzard failed badly when they designed our talent system.

  6. #86
    I can agree with Tier 4...Death Pact is simply superior to others. But I find other tiers to be just fine and are usefull.

    If I wasn't lazy I'd change my talents very often in raid enviroment...but I'm. xd
    Main: Wildmax, Drak'thul - Moonkin, Hardcore raider.
    Got 10x lvl 85 on Drak'thul server and 3 another lvl 85 on different servers and bunch of 10-84 alts.
    Hello no-life.

  7. #87
    Warchief
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    2,018
    I don't like the first tier at all. I like the disease theme, but it should just be redone. I can't think of a time as a blood tank or when I'm doing PvP where I don't take rolling blood. Plague leech is almost exclusively used in PvE for DPS specs.

    Lichborne is always taken in PvP. Purgatory and AMZ are still interesting choices for blood, and DPS are almost exclusively going to take AMZ.

    Third tier is the one the actually has choice. You can pretty much go with any of them in PvP depending on composition. In PvE it largely depends on encounter, but normally DA is going to be chosen. Chillblains is picked from time to time depending on encounter, as is Asphyxiate. Whether asphyxiate is used as a shorter CD secondary interrupt and/or just a stun.

    Our healing tier is pretty bad. Death siphon is a DPS increase for blood at high AP levels and while the heal is substantial at these levels, you're still losing blood shield. Considering it's probably not meant to be a DPS increase, and honestly it's not that large of one is certain circumstances, I doubt many people ever pick it. Conversion is good in PvP, and death pact is almost always used in PvE for pretty much all specs.

    Our rune tree actually does accomplish what it's meant to do, and that's choice, however I still don't like it. Blood tap is typically the best way to go for all specs, but the gain really isn't the substantial. I typically default to corruption although it's theoretically worse simply because of how straight forward it is, how it feels and how it just allows me to focus on other things. Yes I know a lot of people simply macro it to make BT really easy.

    Final tier offers choice, but I don't think the choices really fit. There is a choice in PvP but it's still mostly restricted. AoE grips is good in coordinated BGs/RBGs and desecrated ground is strong in other forms of PvP like arena. RW would be good as well if not for the fact that it's one of the easiest countered abilities in the game. For PvE you pick the one that rarely effects the encounter, but to be honest a lot of talents for other classes work this way as well.

    Honestly a few of our tiers are fine. I don't like the rune regeneration tier, our disease spreading tier or our 'defensive' tier. The healing tier has good concepts but they need to be reworked some. I'd much rather the relative power of some of our tiers be tuned down and some of our iconic abilities that are very niche (read mandatory) be baseline.
    Last edited by Tojara; 2014-01-20 at 09:27 AM.

  8. #88
    Our level 75 talents; rune regeneration ones are just so pointless. It is basically like having a healer spend one of their precious talents to modify the way they regen mana? Why is it we still have this boggles my mind and I'm praying that it's getting changed in WoD.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Balibapo View Post
    Our level 75 talents; rune regeneration ones are just so pointless. It is basically like having a healer spend one of their precious talents to modify the way they regen mana? Why is it we still have this boggles my mind and I'm praying that it's getting changed in WoD.
    Priests and Monks would like to have a word with you on that one.

  10. #90
    I think you guys are overstating the amount of choice that other classes have in their talents. For any tier that affects DPS, healing output, or survivability, there will almost always be an optimal choice for every fight in PVE. You don't have any real choice if you're trying to min-max; you have to choose the best one. For pure utility spells you just pick whatever is useful for each particular fight.

    That being said, I agree that our talent tree is very lackluster. It's full of talents that should be baseline, tiers that have too high of an opportunity cost, and talents that are just completely useless.

    The first tier has a talent that should be baseline for Blood (Roiling Blood) and a talent that is clunky to use (Plague Leech).

    The second tier is awful. In order to get our only raid cooldown, we have to give up a survival talent. One of these survival talents cuts into DPS (Lichborne).

    The third tier is OK but not great. In PVE the default choice is Death's Advance because our mobility is poor. Chilblains and Asphyxiate are useful for maybe one or two fights per tier.

    The fourth tier is also poor. Death Pact is a great talent, but it's the choice 99% of the time. Death Siphon is usually a DPS loss for all specs and a survivability loss for tanks unless there's a huge damage taken/healing done gimmick. Conversion is awful.

    The fifth tier is fine and is really the idea of what a talent choice should be. Talents should meaningfully change the way you play the game, not just allow you to do the same DPS as the other talents but with different pretty graphics. Blood has a meaningful choice between RC and Blood Tap, and the choice between the talents does change how you use your resources. Frost/Unholy will probably min/max to whatever is best, but the talents are pretty close to each other.

    The last tier has useful abilities, but again there's no real choice. You will always pick whatever is most useful for the fight, and there are quite a few fights where none of them are useful.

  11. #91
    Yes, this is a problem for every class.

    The concept of the new talent panel is excellent, but the devs' implementation is terrible. Almost every tier across every class has a "default" choice for PvE, which you'll use in 95%+ of encounters, with the two alternates being either straight-up PvP-only or highly situational at best. So there is no real choice, it's all an illusion, just like cookie-cutter specs in 5.0 and earlier.

    Not that it's all bad; it's neat to get those highly situational abilities. I would never purposefully spend a talent point on something like Remorseless Winter if that point could be used to improve my core performance (damage). So being forced to take it means I get that added ability. It's an improvement over 5.0, but it's still not a meaningful choice.

    We knew about this a long time ago. "Highly situational at best" was a rallying cry in the MoP beta. The devs explicitly disagreed with us. They thought "highly situational at best" was perfectly OK. And so, here we are.

    I guess we'll see if they learned from MoP when 6.0 beta starts in a couple weeks. My assumption would be not really. The worst talent trees like L90 mage talents will almost certainly be addressed due to being wildly unpopular, but the devs don't change their minds about overall design direction. They are stubborn and refuse to admit when they were wrong.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2014-01-20 at 03:56 PM.

  12. #92
    On moderation, necros is one of the most subjective kind of issues we deal with as a mod. Our definition is resurrecting time specific threads without adding new information. "Time specific" is very subjective as well as "new information". I didn't lock this initially because I wanted to see how the discussion went before instantly canning it. In addition, thread necromancy is an infractable offense. However I am not so naive to suggest that many necros aren't simply mistakes and the entire solution can be solved with a thread lock.

    My call is that it is not really "new information" that was posted but this isn't the main failing.

    The main failing is that this thread was created and "finished" before Blizzcon, and in fact this was created and concluded before 5.4. This thread is extremely dated and while plenty of the issues brought up by the OP still exist, it more warrants its own thread full of its own ideas with Blizzcon announcements and current content taken into better consideration.

    On the thread topic ( maybe ideas for someone to create another thread about our talents going forward?) I think people need to take into account other class` "choices" because in many cases, we aren't worse off than others.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •