[MoP] DK DW Tanking Discussion

[Haros]

I realise what I'am about to bring up is well, erm banned in these forums as stated here:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...will-be-locked

MOD Edit: The cataclysm discussion is closed, new thread for MoP found a place here. Starting with beta and continuing after it goes live. Don't spam or troll the thread and keep it to theorycrafting.

But right now in beta there is a point that I haven't seen raised much yet. Lets ignore the many issues with blood DKs right now in the beta and look at what is perhaps an oversight on the part of Blizzard. DW blood tanking.

As of a few seconds ago when I logged onto the beta SoB has no ICD and as such, the faster your weapon speed the faster you stack it up to 5. Lets look at a static time of 10s on rune recharge (yes, I know it's slow but for the purposes of this it works) with two different weapons.


Weapon speed of 1.6s (I grabbed a random weapon out of the vendor for jade forest gear)
In the period of 10s there is a total of 6.25 weapon swings.


Weapon speed of 3.6s (My old H DS weapon, pretty standard speed for 2 hands)
In the period of 10s there is a total of 2.7 weapon swings.


Right now I don't know the proc % of SoB but it seemed to be equal with both weapons. The faster stacks of this buff allow for a much greater heals from each DS.

Is this intended?
If it is then how will it affect raiding?
Will weapons that have a very fast attack speed be BiS regardless of other stats?
Would something like this push us to a point where our damage output is so low that we struggle for threat?

[Kipling]

probably could've just posted it in here as linked in the second post of the thread you posted =p

[Haros]

Problem with that thread is that this is for MoP while that is for Cata. I also didn't want to risk a necro infraction.

[Wih]

SoB procs have already been looked into in the MoP Changes thread - if you believe the information there has been changed without notes, or is wrong, I'd suggest you post your findings there.
I believe the conclusion was that the proc rate was such that a 2.6 speed weapon would trigger every swing, and quicker weapons would result in a lower proc rate per swing, ie a PPM system. Someone else might be able to remember the exact number.

[Nyanmaru]

It's still useless since as Wih mentioned it uses a PPM system that gives you a 100% proc chance with a 2h weapon.

I dunno where I posted it before but these were my findings:

This was done just using a mainhand weapon (no DW penalty) while being hit capped.
Total number of strikes for each weapon was 10k-11k
Using a 3.4s weapon I got 100 procs per 100 hits -> 17.647 PPM
Using a 2.6s weapon I got 78.1 procs per 100 hits -> 18.023 PPM
Using a 1.9s weapon I got 57.9 procs per 100 hits -> 18.284 PPM
Using a 1.4s weapon I got 41.5 procs per 100 hits -> 17.786 PPM

From these numbers I'd guess that the number is somewhere between 17.5 and 18 PPM.
For reference: a 3.3s weapon would need 16.67 PPM to have a 100% proc chance.

The only thing that could make DW semi-viable (for max survivability) would be if SoB could trigger of offhand attacks too.
Since it doesn't DW does not help SoB building.


Oh, and I'm not gonna close this thread, but I'll rather go and close the old thread since it's not long until MoP hits and while the conseus still is the same (no significant gain, high DpS loss) all the math in the old thread is soon to be obsolete.

[Haros]

I ran some logs last night and yeah, it seems to be PPM.

Does anyone know how this interacts with weapon switching? Currently DLing a beta patch before I can log on and test it.

[SSHA778]

SoB is on a PPM system and only triggers from successful main-hand attacks. DW imposes a miss penalty still.

82% of Blood's DPS comes from weapon-based attacks. Wouldn't recommend it.

[Kraeth]

It's practically the same as on live, might be even worse with SoB change. Considering our dps/tps is quite low (especially in aoe situations) there really is no reason to go DW.

[Darsithis]

It's practically the same as on live, might be even worse with SoB change. Considering our dps/tps is quite low (especially in aoe situations) there really is no reason to go DW.

I wouldn't mind it just for a nostalgia-type thing. Ah back in the day of DW frost tanking.

[Count Zero]

I wouldn't mind it just for a nostalgia-type thing. Ah back in the day of DW frost tanking.

When the Trial of the Champion came out, I was just about more excited to dual-wield tank with that chainsaw-looking 1-hander than anything else I could do in the game.

I would love for it to be viable in Mists.

[Stir]

Hey; I've got a question about this dual-wield thing...
Two-handers never have tanking stats. Never. The best you can do is mastery (with possibly haste), but every other stat is pretty much wasted (save hit+exp til high enough).
Tanking 1-handers, however, do have dodge and parry on them as well.

Is our DPS really so incredibly important that we should pass up on the avoidance granted by 1-handers? Because that's really the only reason I see for using a 2-hander...

[Akiie]

Hey; I've got a question about this dual-wield thing...
Two-handers never have tanking stats. Never. The best you can do is mastery (with possibly haste), but every other stat is pretty much wasted (save hit+exp til high enough).
Tanking 1-handers, however, do have dodge and parry on them as well.

Is our DPS really so incredibly important that we should pass up on the avoidance granted by 1-handers? Because that's really the only reason I see for using a 2-hander...

So what you're saying is: They never have any tanking stats, except our most important stat, and they never have any useful secondary stats, except for hit and expertise... Sorry, i'm confused, sounds like they have 3 viable stats for tanking...

Is our DPS so incredibly important that we should pass up on the avoidance granted by 1 handers? Yes.

I'ma go ahead and leave these here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e=1354#Akikiie
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...8&e=2421#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=14902#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...1&e=4150#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9...8&e=1165#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10937#Akikiie

I can go on and on, and honestly tell you that a factor of getting each and every kill we've got this tier, has been helped by higher tank dps. (Admittedly, my main dps have been kinda slacking, but that's aside from the point)

(Both Dks are me, just a name change.)

[Stir]

So what you're saying is: They never have any tanking stats, except our most important stat, and they never have any useful secondary stats, except for hit and expertise... Sorry, i'm confused, sounds like they have 3 viable stats for tanking...

Is our DPS so incredibly important that we should pass up on the avoidance granted by 1 handers? Yes.

I'ma go ahead and leave these here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e=1354#Akikiie
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...8&e=2421#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=14902#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...1&e=4150#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9...8&e=1165#Briza
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10937#Akikiie

I can go on and on, and honestly tell you that a factor of getting each and every kill we've got this tier, has been helped by higher tank dps. (Admittedly, my main dps have been kinda slacking, but that's aside from the point)

(Both Dks are me, just a name change.)

Okay; so I get that mastery is the main stat... Which is also provided by 1-handers.
hit and expertise can be obtained through any kind of gear, and are easily set at a high-enough-level.
Dodge and parry are still quite valuable, while crit, for instance, is completely useless.

Your WoL accounts also prove nothing to me other than the fact that you had really high DPS. Congratulations, I guess. But shouldn't the DPS be doing that? Sure; tank DPS helps... But it shouldn't even be close to 70% of what a DPS character pulls. If it's any higher than that, you've got a serious class/role/encounter balance problem.

Edit: But I reïterate. My question was: Is DPS really thát important? More important than avoidance? (I undestand you answered with 'yes,' but the WoL-reports hardly tell me anything other than 'I'm great at DPS while tanking!')

[Akiie]

Well, when you say that you can get expertise hit on other gear? At what cost? At the cost of dodge or parry which shows up on other gear. Dodge/Parry doesn't show up on your 2h weapon, so if you can get expertise or hit there, it frees up dodge or parry in your main gear.
Admittedly, the BiS weapon does have crit on it, but the mastery on it outweighs the value of using a lower ilvl weapon to get expertise or hit as the second stat on it.

Why use it over dual wield? Because, Tank DPS really matters.
The model for this tier is that tank damage matters, it really does make the difference between a kill or not a kill.
There are fights, especially Stone guards, Wind lord, and Grand Empress which spring to mind where tanks are doing vast amounts of damage, as a function of the damage that they're taking.

That's great, that's expected, when you look at the enrage, that's expecting your tank to be doing 200k dps or whatever. There are fights on this tier where your tanks will vastly out damage your DPS, as a mechanic of the fight.

If you augment that, by dual wielding, reducing your damage significantly, you really will be doing 70% of what a dps character does, when instead you could be doing 180% of what they're doing.

The point of linking those world of logs was not to go 'hey look, look at my epeen' it was to show you how much a DK tank can contribute to the raid, without killing his survivability. And how necessary it can be, if you look at some of the timers compared to the enrages.

Most of your skills inherit vast amounts of %weapon damage, which only works off your main hand when you're dual wielding which massively gimps your damage, and gimps your raid.

Let's say, for example, a DPS could choose between, 5% extra hp, to help them survive those big AOE damage phases, or 20k dps?

They're going to take the 20k damage, and they should! Likewise, you should.
You're stuck in a 'tanks do the tanking, all they have to do is hold threat, and stay alive'
'healers do the healing, all they have to do is keep those little bars in the green'
'DPS just stand there and pew pew'

That's never been the case, and it is even less now.
Tanks have to DPS, there are times when healers have to DPS on pull, DPS have to heal during those big aoe phases? Tanks have to take down adds by themselves, etc, etc.

Tanks have got to push the dps in raids, your survivability gain, is reduced because the fight is lasting longer, so you're going to take more overall damage anyways.

If this still hasn't changed your mind, i cannot more emphatically say this than: Dual wield tanking is just BAD. I'd love to dual wield tank, don't get me wrong, but it's just BAD.

[Stir]

*snip*

Oh, I was already in the boat of 'dual-wielding shouldn't happen' simply because the spec doesn't incorporate anything relating to dual-wielding.
I was merely wondering why the Landsknecht approach (sacrificing (some) survivability for damage in a vanguard position) was superior.

It's true that I'm stuck in the 'tanks should defend, healers should heal and DPS should kill stuff'-design. If tanks are out-damaging the damage dealers, then the role of DPS becomes effectively null. It's simply bad for damage dealers, who've specialized in dealing damage, and dedicated their abilities and focus to this end, to be outplayed in their own field by someone that isn't even IN their field.
If the fights demand a higher emphasis on tank DPS, then personally, I really disagree with the encounters...

Anyway; I didn't exactly needed convincing... Merely an explanation.

[Morlana]

It's true that I'm stuck in the 'tanks should defend, healers should heal and DPS should kill stuff'-design. If tanks are out-damaging the damage dealers, then the role of DPS becomes effectively null. It's simply bad for damage dealers, who've specialized in dealing damage, and dedicated their abilities and focus to this end, to be outplayed in their own field by someone that isn't even IN their field.
If the fights demand a higher emphasis on tank DPS, then personally, I really disagree with the encounters...

Well, for starters, while it does feel a bit wierd to have the tank as #1 dps on some fights, Vengeance hasn't changed the tanking role at all and arguably it didn't have a big impact on encounter design either. It simply means Berserk timers are tuned taking that into account (ie increased tank dps).

From a personal PoV as a tank, my priority is still staying alive no matter what, the only 'difference' is that my second priority changed from threat, (which was a binary mechanic, meaning either you generated enough, at which point any more was 100% pointless or you didn't, in which case you had to throttle raid dps, use more Paladins/Shammies for BoSalv/whatever that threat totem was called or use "dps" gear to reach that threshold.) to DPS which is a scaling mechanic, so I very much like this change.

As for dpsers losing their role, Vengeance took that into account, tank spec DPS is horrible without it so they're fine, really.

[Bunnys]

Oh, I was already in the boat of 'dual-wielding shouldn't happen' simply because the spec doesn't incorporate anything relating to dual-wielding.
I was merely wondering why the Landsknecht approach (sacrificing (some) survivability for damage in a vanguard position) was superior.

It's true that I'm stuck in the 'tanks should defend, healers should heal and DPS should kill stuff'-design. If tanks are out-damaging the damage dealers, then the role of DPS becomes effectively null. It's simply bad for damage dealers, who've specialized in dealing damage, and dedicated their abilities and focus to this end, to be outplayed in their own field by someone that isn't even IN their field.
If the fights demand a higher emphasis on tank DPS, then personally, I really disagree with the encounters...

Anyway; I didn't exactly needed convincing... Merely an explanation.

Tanks should be treated as an equal part of the dps team, they're not replacing dps by any means - due to the vengeance mechanic. Mitigation is only half a tank's job these days and I like it personally...

[Dole4011]

I wasn't allowed to address this elsewhere, so here we go:

I'm occasionally running my 85 dk through dungeons for rep. I am not leveling him (any exp gains are incidental); I'm just doing the daily dungeon to get Tiller rep so I can farm motes of harmony without having to get to 90.

That said, I want a quick queue so I queue as a tank. Up to this point, I've just been using a 372 2her: Faded Forest Battlemace

However, I've acquired two of these (410 ilvl): Dubious Handaxe

Also, when I ding 86, I have access to two of these (450 ilvl): Yaungol Fire Carrier

My question is this, at what point do higher ilvl one handers become more worthwhile than a 2her?

Anyway, this obv isn't srs bzns. It's just a leveling dungeon which are not really known for being much of a challenge. I'd just like to be able to contribute the most dps without being a liability.

Also, I understand that there are a lot of reasons why 2h are generally better, but when the weapon damage on a 1her exceeds that of a 2her, to me it becomes less clear. At some point, the ilvl disparity becomes great enough that the 2h benefits aren't enough. I'm curious when.

TL;DR-How much better do the 1hers have to be for dual-wielding as blood to overtake using a 2her regarding damage?

[Nyanmaru]

TL;DR-How much better do the 1hers have to be for dual-wielding as blood to overtake using a 2her regarding damage?

When they do more damage or offer substantially more stats.

I got absolutely no idea what a level 85 DKs damage looks like. What's the ratio of Death Strike and Heart Strike to the rest of your damage?

Rough napkin math the 1h would increase your melee damage by roughly 25% but you'd lose about 30% of your strike damage.

The yaungol fire carriers are most likely an upgrade though.

But there's a number of blue 2h weapons that would be an even better choice (in no particular order):
Spiritblade Decimator
Swarming Cleaver of Ka'roz
Lerah's Ribsmasher
Fellworth's Repetitive Greataxe

As a rough guideline, it should be at about 50-60 ilvl difference that the 1h weapons easily overtake the 2h weapon (mind you, if you compare cross expansions this may vary, a green cataclysm weapon will have a hard time against any blue mop weapon)

[Dole4011]

Cool. Thanks for the reply.

I was actually having an argument with a guildy about this, haha. Anyway, he pointed me in the direction of the Swarming Cleaver so I'm just going to go that route.