Is Ret bringing enough buffs in MoP?

[Tangra]

The more I stare at spell changes the more it seems like Ret is losing even more buffs in MoP. We lost 3% damage, Replenishment, and auras we, and we got 4% physical damage and the craptastic 10% reduced melee damage done, which is almost completely irrelevant since it is brought by every tank in the game and numerous other classes. Here is an example:

Ret
5% stats or mastery (not both at the same time as usual)
4% physical damage done to target
10% physical damage done debuff to target via Hammer of the Righteous

Enhancement Shaman
10% Spellpower
10% Melee Haste
Mastery
Heroism
10% physical damage done debuff to target via Earth Shock

This really just doesn't look right... just as with Cata we're losing more raid buffs in comparison to others (we lost 3% haste last time with no compensation)

[Reith]

I dunno if we're actually the outlier here... maybe Enhancement just has too much stuff. I'd like the 10% melee haste buff for Ret, though.

[Deleted]

Enhance doesnt even gain anythin themselves from spellpower its just a bribe to make the guildleader perhaps bring them to the raid considering their subpar aoe and bad target switching.
With spellpower gone and as you said 10% reduced melee damage done being brought by all tanks leaves melee haste and mastery.

Someone has to bring bloodlust/heroism and enhancement is the class that benefits the least from haste so the buff.

[Tangra]

I dunno if we're actually the outlier here... maybe Enhancement just has too much stuff. I'd like the 10% melee haste buff for Ret, though.

The only spec that seems to bring less than Ret seems to be Shadow Priest, as far as I can tell anyway; windwalkers might be on the low end also. But I'm fairly certain we are below average. Everyone else I have looked at brings roughly the same amount of buffs, and the debuffs they bring are usually more relevant that 10% reduced physical damage.

Here are Dks for example:

10% Attack Power
10% Haste
4% Physical Damage
30% Reduced Spell Haste
Battle Res

[Pipboi]

Enhance doesnt even gain anythin themselves from spellpower its just a bribe to make the guildleader perhaps bring them to the raid considering their subpar aoe and bad target switching.
With spellpower gone and as you said 10% reduced melee damage done being brought by all tanks leaves melee haste and mastery.

Someone has to bring bloodlust/heroism and enhancement is the class that benefits the least from haste so the buff.

Isn't Stormlash Totem enough reason to bring a shaman?

[Tangra]

Enhance doesnt even gain anythin themselves from spellpower its just a bribe to make the guildleader perhaps bring them to the raid considering their subpar aoe and bad target switching.
With spellpower gone and as you said 10% reduced melee damage done being brought by all tanks leaves melee haste and mastery.

Someone has to bring bloodlust/heroism and enhancement is the class that benefits the least from haste so the buff.

I'm pretty sure spellpower matters for hybrid dps again, a lot of coefficients have been moved to spellpower, mainly due to the talent system causing different specs to share many important abilities.

---------- Post added 2012-07-30 at 10:17 PM ----------

Isn't Stormlash Totem enough reason to bring a shaman?

Wow, I didn't even notice that before, what is our answer to that supposed to be? Aura Mastery? lol That's practically a mini Heroism without exhaustion. I mean how are we supposed to keep up to stuff like this and the warrior dps banner, why not just stack specs that bring these extra new dps cooldowns that aren't even being counted as raid buffs even though they clearly are (especially on fights with burn phases)? I'm really starting to fail to see the reason to play Ret in MoP.

[Deleted]

Enhance doesnt gain anything from spellpower no, they changed it because enhance shamans ran around using spellpower axes hardcasting spells in T12. Enhance gain crap from spellpower, probably the only class that brings a buff they dont benefit one bit from.

Stormlash got neutered big time, chopped down to a third of the original damage so it wasnt supposed to be a new bloodlust like spell.
Not sure if the caped the damage it would hand out as well..

[Tangra]

Enhance doesnt gain anything from spellpower no, they changed it because enhance shamans ran around using spellpower axes hardcasting spells in T12. Enhance gain crap from spellpower, probably the only class that brings a buff they dont benefit one bit from.

Stormlash got neutered big time, chopped down to a third of the original damage so it wasnt supposed to be a new bloodlust like spell.
Not sure if the caped the damage it would hand out as well..

That was quite a while ago, they don't gain much from spellpower now but they will in MoP just like Ret will. Look at their level 90 talent Elemental Blast for example: it clearly scales with spell power.

Also, these new raid-wide dps buffs that shamans and warriors a bringing are really starting to bother me, we finally got rid of overpowered abilities like Dark Intent, which made Warlock stacking very beneficial, and now they have invented a totally new class of buffs that they don't seem to be accounting for in raid comb design. Shamans and Warriors will end up getting stacked on fights with burn phases.

[Lanlen]

That was quite a while ago, they don't gain much from spellpower now but they will in MoP just like Ret will.

Ret doesn't benefit directly from spellpower in MoP. The new Sword of Light says, "you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power." Mental Quickness says the same thing. So neither Rets nor Enhancement Shaman benefit from the Burning Wrath buff.

[Requital]

I still say with everything they stripped from Ret we are the easiest class to cut from a Raid be it 10 man or 25 man either or.

[Tangra]

Ret doesn't benefit directly from spellpower in MoP. The new Sword of Light says, "you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power." Mental Quickness says the same thing. So neither Rets nor Enhancement Shaman benefit from the Burning Wrath buff.

You're right, but ultimately the issue at hand is how attractive a spec is to a raid leader, not the personal benefit of the buffs they bring. Look at Ret, we have been bringing Replenishment for years and we hardly need it.

[Xanda]

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/30814-mental-quickness

"you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power." It includes everything.

[Tangra]

I still say with everything they stripped from Ret we are the easiest class to cut from a Raid be it 10 man or 25 man either or.

That's what happens when every expansion you get overhauled while other specs actually get improved. They are so busy fixing the half-baked changes from the previous expansion that they forget to actually give us as many new things as others get.

---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 02:31 AM ----------

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/30814-mental-quickness

"you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power." It includes everything.

Yes, I corrected myself. However, regardless this doesn't matter since shamans seem to bring 1 more buff than any other class in the game. And they bring them at the same time, unlike Paladins who have to pick between might and kings.

[Rivin]

If you're going to count Bloodlust and battle rezzes then you need to count Devotion Aura for Ret too.

[Tangra]

If you're going to count Bloodlust and battle rezzes then you need to count Devotion Aura for Ret too.

Well I didn't count Shaman self-res if that makes you feel better, or the new bullshit class of buffs such as warrior banners and stormlash totem that will lead to shaman and warrior stacking on any fight with a harsh burn phase *cought* anything remotely like H Spine *cough*. Now warriors will be beating us on personal damage and bringing more buffs and utility, oh wait they already do.

[Rivin]

Well, I think if you're going to count raid cooldowns as raid buffs then you should count all of them. :P Better to not count any of them though. That's going beyond buffs and into utility. Unless you want to start comparing allllll the utility every class can bring to a raid.

[Tangra]

Well, I think if you're going to count raid cooldowns as raid buffs then you should count all of them. :P Better to not count any of them though. That's going beyond buffs and into utility. Unless you want to start comparing allllll the utility every class can bring to a raid.

Heroism isn't just any cooldown it's the most absurdly massive cooldown in the game and can't be compared to anything but a raid buff, if you divide the haste given by heroism by the amount of time the average fight lasts, you'll see that it does pretty much as much as any raid buff.

---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 03:21 AM ----------

Well, I think if you're going to count raid cooldowns as raid buffs then you should count all of them. :P Better to not count any of them though. That's going beyond buffs and into utility. Unless you want to start comparing allllll the utility every class can bring to a raid.

Heroism isn't just any cooldown it's the most absurdly massive cooldown in the game and can't be compared to anything but a raid buff, if you divide the haste given by heroism by the amount of time the average fight lasts, you'll see that it does pretty much as much as any raid buff. Battle res is also hard to compare to other cooldowns such as Aura Mastery, since reviving a dead player is incredibly beneficial, much more so than making healing a little easier during a high AoE phase.

[Kelesti]

Priest, Power Word: Fortitude.

Shadow: 5% spellhaste that's already brought by a) Elemental Shaman (with their other buffs), b) Balance Druid (with their other buffs)

[Handlebardoc]

Battle res is also hard to compare to other cooldowns such as Aura Mastery, since reviving a dead player is incredibly beneficial, much more so than making healing a little easier during a high AoE phase.

I would disagree; battle rezzes are provided by all 10 specs of the available classes, whereas a raid CD that actually reduces dmg taken (which is the best type of raid CD) is only provided by one other spec in the game (the disc priest), and as a bonus the pally one does not require you to be a healer, and does not have a strict range/positional requirement. It's better than people think.

[Tangra]

Priest, Power Word: Fortitude.

Shadow: 5% spellhaste that's already brought by a) Elemental Shaman (with their other buffs), b) Balance Druid (with their other buffs)

I mentioned priests as possible exception early on. I'm not sure what you mean about Ele Shamans and Balance Druids, both of those bring an average, if not above average number of buffs.