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  1. #41
    I'm seeing SOME shadow blades show up as dodge or miss, but some are showing up as a melee swing. It's unusual and I'm probably gonna try a different approach to visualizing what's happening. That will take quite a bit of time though.

    What I was doing for testing was popping shadow blades (and troll racial just for extra swings during that window), waiting 1 second, then turning on autoattack, then turning off the autoattack with 1 second left on shadow blades. That way there are no swings outside of shadow blades. Did it untalented and did not use any special attacks, nor did I use poisons.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 08:55 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Okay, for the last freakin time...read the bluepost I linked. I wont repeat this any longer. I grow tired of you. This is the last time I'm gonna say this:

    All magic damage, no matter if it is caused by a spell, a Froststrike, a DoT-Tick or a rogues Poison has an innate chance of 15% to miss a lvl 93 Mob in MoP. To prevent this, you need Spellhit. Spellhit comes from Hit and expertise. Since you need 7.5% of each anyway to keep Meeleestrikes from missing/dodgeing, If you cap hit and expertise, you also cap Poisons. If you only cap hit to 7.5, then 7.5% of all Poison damage you cause, DP DoT, DP proc, VM proc will miss.

    Again, this was the last time I'm gonna repeat this for you and all the others who still don't get it and believe themselves to know moe about the game than ghostcrawler himself. If you don't believe me, fine, I hereby officially stop caring. The less rogues pull the necessary numbers and get kicked out of raids, the better for me, having raidspot choice is always nice.

    Peace.
    You must love the taste of your own foot, because you just stuffed the whole thing in your mouth.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimitsu View Post
    You must love the taste of your own foot, because you just stuffed the whole thing in your mouth.
    OK...would you bother backing that up with something that even remotely resembles an argument, or are you just randomly quoting a post and signing your ginourmous feat with a random one-liner?
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  4. #44
    Sorzzara's right, it was neither helpful nor constructive.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    OK...would you bother backing that up with something that even remotely resembles an argument, or are you just randomly quoting a post and signing your ginourmous feat with a random one-liner?
    You can't go anywhere on the internet putting on that awesome display of arrogance, being proven dead-wrong, and not expect to get called out on it. Being wrong is perfectly okay, but being wrong after the way you handled yourself, not so much.

    Perhaps I should have refrained from rubbing salt in your self-inflicted wound, but given the current standard of internet ridicule, you got off easy.
    Last edited by Shimitsu; 2012-08-02 at 01:40 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimitsu View Post
    You can't go anywhere on the internet putting on that awesome display of arrogance, being proven dead-wrong, and not expect to get called out on it. Being wrong is perfectly okay, but being wrong after the way you handled yourself, not so much.

    Perhaps I should have refrained from rubbing salt in your self-inflicted wound, but given the current standard of internet ridicule, you got off easy.
    Except that there is no self inflicted wound and the joke is on you. I am completely right, backed up by others here, official blueposts, my own testing,...so unless you can present evidence, other than simply stating "you are wrong, and since I feel like I am part of something I will now insult you", I'd say you log into the beta, strip your lvl90 toon (which you have, right?) of all exp gear, go to 7.5% hit and see what happens to your poison procs after 10 min on a dummy.

    Then you may come back and beg for my forgiveness.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Except that there is no self inflicted wound and the joke is on you. I am completely right, backed up by others here, official blueposts, my own testing,...so unless you can present evidence, other than simply stating "you are wrong, and since I feel like I am part of something I will now insult you", I'd say you log into the beta, strip your lvl90 toon (which you have, right?) of all exp gear, go to 7.5% hit and see what happens to your poison procs after 10 min on a dummy.

    Then you may come back and beg for my forgiveness.
    Tbh, i'm "worried" that he would see a lot of missses but no dodge and all poison procs hit. If capping 7.5% hit make all poisons hit, it should do the same capping expertise.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Tbh, i'm "worried" that he would see a lot of missses but no dodge and all poison procs hit. If capping 7.5% hit make all poisons hit, it should do the same capping expertise.
    "If", but that's not the case. The fact that magic damage is suspect to the magic miss chance never changed, and you will find no blizzard post that states otherwise. The only thing that changed where the normalization to 7.5 meleemiss, 15% spellmiss and 7.5% dodge (from behind) and the fact that expertise grants antidodge and anti-magic-miss. Therefore, with 7.5 hit and no exp, 7.5% of poison will miss.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    "If", but that's not the case. The fact that magic damage is suspect to the magic miss chance never changed, and you will find no blizzard post that states otherwise. The only thing that changed where the normalization to 7.5 meleemiss, 15% spellmiss and 7.5% dodge (from behind) and the fact that expertise grants antidodge and anti-magic-miss. Therefore, with 7.5 hit and no exp, 7.5% of poison will miss.
    Hell, how much proof do you want? you even linked a blog post were Ghostcrawler states Poisons are under Meele hit

    7.5% Hit will make your Poisons ALWAYS Hit, Poisons can NOT be dodged and because it can NOT be dodged you do NOT need expertise for Poisons.

    Please understand this and do not defend a wrong fact, Poisons are under Meele hit and are not affected by spell miss, they no longer count as spell.
    There is no point in you defending something you clearly didn't test yourself.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuyuli View Post
    Hell, how much proof do you want? you even linked a blog post were Ghostcrawler states Poisons are under Meele hit

    7.5% Hit will make your Poisons ALWAYS Hit, Poisons can NOT be dodged and because it can NOT be dodged you do NOT need expertise for Poisons.

    Please understand this and do not defend a wrong fact, Poisons are under Meele hit and are not affected by spell miss, they no longer count as spell.
    There is no point in you defending something you clearly didn't test yourself.
    It's hilariously ironic that Sorzzara himself was the one that posted that link. He simply needs to open that Dev Watercooler, and ctrl-f this line: "Rogue poisons will also use the melee hit chance." There's only two ways to interpret this. Poisons are either on the yellow hit table, or the white hit table, but NOT the spell hit table, as that would not be news-worthy since that's the way it is on live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Except that there is no self inflicted wound and the joke is on you. I am completely right, backed up by others here, official blueposts, my own testing,...so unless you can present evidence, other than simply stating "you are wrong, and since I feel like I am part of something I will now insult you", I'd say you log into the beta, strip your lvl90 toon (which you have, right?) of all exp gear, go to 7.5% hit and see what happens to your poison procs after 10 min on a dummy.

    Then you may come back and beg for my forgiveness.
    I do in fact have a level 90 on the beta, and as I said in my first post in this thread, I tested it as soon as I got home. Within 20 minutes, I came to the exact conclusion as others in this thread. I honestly have no idea what post of theirs you misinterpreted as agreement with your notion that poisons still use the spell hit table. Cap at 7.5% hit, and bottom out your expertise as much as you can. You will not see a single poison miss. Just look at Shadowboy's log in post #26. If you have never used WoL, just hover over the total damage done for Wound Poison and note they are all hits and crits with no misses at all through nearly 1000 procs. Now mouse over Elemental Force (something that really does use the spell hit table) and notice the expected number of misses. Again, this is only with "+7.63% hit and +1.84% expertise."
    Last edited by Shimitsu; 2012-08-02 at 10:36 AM.

  11. #51
    Then please by all means do that and ignore exp as an assa rogue once MoP goes live. As I said in an above post, I stopped caring some time ago. You don't understand game mechanics = not my problem
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Then please by all means do that and ignore exp as an assa rogue once MoP goes live. As I said in an above post, I stopped caring some time ago. You don't understand game mechanics = not my problem
    You kept going on about poisons being on spell hit.
    Now you changed it completly to "You need expertise"

    OFC you need expertise, yellows being dodged = dmg loss! BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POISONS.

    Seriously, what the...? You were wrong. Simple.

    /facepalm
    Last edited by Yuyuli; 2012-08-02 at 10:44 AM.

  13. #53
    Yeah. I am wrong, and expertise has nothing to do with poisons or magic damage at all. And because of that, expertise will grant spellhit in MoP...sounds 100% logical.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Then please by all means do that and ignore exp as an assa rogue once MoP goes live. As I said in an above post, I stopped caring some time ago. You don't understand game mechanics = not my problem
    I get that you're embarrassed, and I'm sorry I kinda kicked you when you were down, but don't deliberately mislead people simply because it's too hard to admit you were wrong. You clearly didn't test anything, and you refuse to acknowledge the hard facts put in front of you. As it stands on beta, poisons do not use the spell hit table. If something changes, we'll let you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Yeah. I am wrong, and expertise has nothing to do with poisons or magic damage at all.
    And there is the problem. You are 100% correct about spells needing the spell hit cap. But in your very own Dev Watercooler post, they differentiate between spells and poisons.

  15. #55
    Please don't. I'd rather hear news from people who know what the are talkin about.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  16. #56
    The log of post #26

    worldoflogs.com/reports/xr47ez03gzybj9f3/spell/8680/

    Can you see what we can see?

    Uptime: 58:16
    856 Hits
    0 Dodge
    0 Miss

    You know.. We'd rather hear news from people who know what they are talking about too.
    Last edited by Yuyuli; 2012-08-02 at 10:53 AM.

  17. #57
    What's funny is I was under the exact same impression about poisons still using the spell hit table when I came into this thread. Apparently we had read the exact same posts, but we also missed the same key information. So I tested it myself, and actually read the information others were providing, including the information from Sorzzara and realized I was wrong. Poisons are really on the yellow hit table. Why he would prefer to cover his eyes and ears and go "LA LA LA LA" I'll never know.
    Last edited by Shimitsu; 2012-08-02 at 10:59 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuyuli View Post
    You kept going on about poisons being on spell hit.
    Now you changed it completly to "You need expertise"

    OFC you need expertise, yellows being dodged = dmg loss! BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POISONS.

    Seriously, what the...? You were wrong. Simple.

    /facepalm
    I am not sure if the expertise need is so clear, because this discussion is related to Assassionation spec. Which historically doesn't need to be expertise capped:
    Quote Originally Posted by http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t110134-assassination_guide_cata_12_01_2011_a/
    When a combo point generating ability (Mutilate, Backstab, etc.) or a finisher is dodged you are refunded 80% of the cost. When Envenom is dodged, you still get the Envenom buff but depending on how much time you have left on your SnD, your SnD may fall off and have to directly refresh your SnD. These mechanics play a part in expertise's relative poor value and it is likely most Assassination rogues will not gear for expertise cap unless they have cycle stability issues.
    So as far as I understand it, Combat and Subtetly that do stack expertise up to the cap will receive 7.5% spell hit from, hence will reach 15% spell hit cap "for free". It's only Assassination that is questionable.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.
    Last edited by Fae; 2012-08-02 at 11:03 AM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    It's not really that much /facepalm, because this discussion is related to Assassionation spec. Which historically doesn't need to be expertise capped:


    So as far as I understand it, Combat and Subtetly that do stack expertise up to the cap will receive 7.5% spell hit from, hence will reach 15% spell hit cap "for free". It's only Assassination that is questionable. Please correct me if I am wrong.
    The issue now is that it only requires 7.5% hit for poisons to never miss, just like another yellow attack. Since poisons are no longer treated as spells, there is no benefit from the spell hit granted by expertise (just like there would be no benefit from stacking hit higher than 7.5% other than white attacks), meaning expertise should have the same rough value as it does on live for all specs.
    Last edited by Shimitsu; 2012-08-02 at 11:06 AM.

  20. #60
    Which is exactly what I was trying to say, explaining why I don't agree with this particular line: "OFC you need expertise, yellows being dodged = dmg loss!"

    EDIT: Something just crossed my mind - even when spell hit is irrelevant for poisons, doesn't Combat/Subtetly still benefit from it's "free" (because they are stacking expertise anyway) 15% spell hit cap when using a spell proc enchant or possible spell proc gear? It's just a pure speculation, I did not play beta at level 90 so I don't know what is available. I am just thinking out loud that in case such situation happens, Combat and Subtetly might have an advantage over Assassination because they are "passively" spell hit capped.
    Last edited by Fae; 2012-08-02 at 11:16 AM.

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