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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    Which is exactly what I was trying to say, explaining why I don't agree with this particular line: "OFC you need expertise, yellows being dodged = dmg loss!"
    Right. Expertise should still do what it always did, just nothing new. You still get refunded energy from dodged attacks, and the Envenom buff still refreshes even if it was dodged.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    Which is exactly what I was trying to say, explaining why I don't agree with this particular line: "OFC you need expertise, yellows being dodged = dmg loss!"
    This thread is about stat priors, not Assassination directly, just because Sorzzara drifts apart doesnt devalue the statement.

    7.5% hit cap is for all specs.
    capping expertise on Assassination might nto be the best idea.. you will benefit way more from Mastery and Haste, but that doesnt mean expertise has no value at all.

  3. #63
    Combat and Sub would get it for free, if there was in fact something to get, yes. It's just the fact that if you get the yellow hit cap now, you also get the poison hit cap by default.

    It's possible they could change it in the future. It seems weird that they introduce this new expertise / spell hit system, and at the exact same time they make poisons no longer need the benefit it would provide.

  4. #64
    What I got from the Dev Watercooler:

    Rogues need 7.5% hit chance to cap yellow hit attacks and poison hits (which is our source of spell dmg). The spell hit cap is indeed 15%, but as the watercooler specifically said about rogue poisons, under Criticals (quote): "This means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue poisons will crit for double damage. Rogue poisons will also use the melee hit chance."

    Of course you'd still want Expertise for negating the boss' dodge chance (well perhaps not for all specs but I would imagine Combat and perhaps Sub would want to cap it, I'll let theorycrafters figure it out for Assassination). Expertise WILL also give us 7.5% extra spell hit, which does bring us to 15% spell miss if we get 7.5% Expertise. But it's not really relevant to us because we'll have absolutely no use for the extra spell hit that Expertise grants us.
    Last edited by Slythas; 2012-08-02 at 11:34 AM.

  5. #65
    EDIT: This was meant to be a reply to Yuyuli's last post. I was too slow with typing.

    You are right. For some reason I believed that the thread has "Assassination" in it's title.

    And sure, expertise still has it's value and currently, many Assassination rogues are expertise capped anyway. Just like Combat rogues often reach spell hit cap nowadays even when it's 3rd combat rating in line.

    But thats now, at the end of an expansion. I remember quite clearly that it was much bigger deal to reach required caps when T11 was fresh. And thats why I think it's relevant to discuss question such as "does Assassination need to cap expertise?", because in 7 weeks, our combat ratings will drop all the way down once again.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    EDIT: This was meant to be a reply to Yuyuli's last post. I was too slow with typing.

    You are right. For some reason I believed that the thread has "Assassination" in it's title.

    And sure, expertise still has it's value and currently, many Assassination rogues are expertise capped anyway. Just like Combat rogues often reach spell hit cap nowadays even when it's 3rd combat rating in line.

    But thats now, at the end of an expansion. I remember quite clearly that it was much bigger deal to reach required caps when T11 was fresh. And thats why I think it's relevant to discuss question such as "does Assassination need to cap expertise?", because in 7 weeks, our combat ratings will drop all the way down once again.
    T11 seems so long ago now, but I thought we didn't need to expertise cap even then.

    I think it will be relatively easy to cap on expertise in MoP. They really seem to be emphasizing rating on gear and gems over agility. This combined with us needing less hit to cap poisons should give us a lot of rating to play around with. We may come close to capping expertise by just wearing the gear available and not being able to reforge it all away..

  7. #67
    As far as I remember, Combat/Subtetly needed to be expertise capped and Assassination wanted 17% spell hit. And especially the latter was quite PITA to reach, it usually meant to reforge pretty much everything into hit, at least until we got some more raid drops.

    But maybe my memory is tricking me.

    Anyway, it's interesting to hear that they are taking different approach in MoP. I am just not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing, we'll see, I guess.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimitsu View Post
    T11 seems so long ago now, but I thought we didn't need to expertise cap even then.

    I think it will be relatively easy to cap on expertise in MoP. They really seem to be emphasizing rating on gear and gems over agility. This combined with us needing less hit to cap poisons should give us a lot of rating to play around with. We may come close to capping expertise by just wearing the gear available and not being able to reforge it all away..
    It's actually not trivial to cap expertise/hit at 90, at least if you're in greens. Before they buffed combat ratings, it took ~2500 hit rating and 2500 expertise rating to cap those stats against DUNGEON BOSSES (level 92). I never did dungeons often enough to be fully geared in heroic dungeon blues prior to the pvp epics being freely available, so that is something I don't have experience with, but by extrapolation, if can barely reach dungeon boss cap in greens, then blues will barely get you to level 93 caps.

    At 85 in quest reward greens in cata I could cap hit/expertise by only reforging crit/mastery and selecting a mix of gear with hit/exp in it. When I first hit 90 on beta and was in a lot of quest reward greens I had to reforge every single piece into hit or expertise, including reforging out of haste. After doing that I still wasn't capped on both stats for level 92. Was not even close to level 93 caps. Even in 483 purples I have to reforge out of haste in 1 slot to get both caps for level 93. I may not have an optimal reforge though, I did it manually, not using a brute force tool such as wowreforge.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-02 at 02:13 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    EDIT: Something just crossed my mind - even when spell hit is irrelevant for poisons, doesn't Combat/Subtetly still benefit from it's "free" (because they are stacking expertise anyway) 15% spell hit cap when using a spell proc enchant or possible spell proc gear? It's just a pure speculation, I did not play beta at level 90 so I don't know what is available. I am just thinking out loud that in case such situation happens, Combat and Subtetly might have an advantage over Assassination because they are "passively" spell hit capped.
    If poison hit cap is 7.5 (and it seems from various logs that came in my hands), also combat and sub will have automatically poison capped, since yellow hit is the strongest stat.

    What bugs me is that in an ipotethic world in which yellow hit sucks and exp is godly, capping expertise will also cap poisons EVEN if you have 0 hit. That's what i'm trying to replicate.

    EDIT: what i need also to know is EXACTLY how the roll is done for deciding if an attack is missed or dodged. It's all about this that makes the difference.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Please don't. I'd rather hear news from people who know what the are talkin about.
    someone already showed you the facts from 1 combat log where when he had only 9.XX% hit he never missed a poison application.
    what more proof do you want?
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    EDIT: what i need also to know is EXACTLY how the roll is done for deciding if an attack is missed or dodged. It's all about this that makes the difference.
    The attack table, as far as I know, goes like this: The game "rolls a dice" for every possible type of attack (read: auto-attacks), in the order of Miss > Dodge > Parry > Glancing Blow > Block > Crit.

    Say you have a 20% chance to miss an attack. The game then rolls between 0.01 - 20. If the result is within 0.01-20, you miss, if it's above 20, you don't miss, and the game then rolls for dodge etc etc..

    I may be very wrong on this, as the source I got this from is very likely outdated.

  12. #72
    Whoa, you are reading that wrong for sure.

    If you have a 20% chance to miss, then 0<= X < 20 should give you the miss. But if you roll a 25, it doesn't roll again! It just uses what is next in line. So if you had a 20% miss chance, an 8% dodge chance, a 5% parry chance, a 20% glancing blow chance, a 6% block chance, and a 13% crit chance, the table would look like:

    0 <= x < 20 miss
    20 <=x < 28 miss
    28 <= x < 33 dodge
    33 <= x < 38 parry
    38 <= x < 58 glancing
    58 <= x < 64 block
    64 <= x < 77 crit
    77 <= x Normal hit

    So if you rolled a 55, that's a glance. It doesn't notice that you rolled a 20%, then roll a second time! That would change all the numbers.

    Also note that autoattacks are different that yellow, as pointed out in the link.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    What you said
    That does sound a tad more logical indeed. Always thought it rolled for each of them in that order, and if none of the rolls landed within the given range, the result would just be a normal hit. But yeah thanks for the clarification.

  14. #74
    Ok, so actually expertise and hit given MoP condition will become exactly the same stat, apart they negate different kind of "missed blows".

    If you cap poison hit thriugh yellow hit (which is going to be pretty much the case for every spec), capping expertise or not becomes governed by mechanics.

    - Assa: as on live, dodging a mutilate or an envenom has little to no impact. Exp is a QoL stat, making rotation smoother, but the envenom buff uptime doesn't rely on it. Anyway we still have to count blindside procs and how they are affected by hit/exp (i assume it's a standard yellow move, so to maximize its damage we want to cap both hit and exp). Crit could become better, due to poisons crittig for 200%, but mastery is a flat out damage increase.

    - Combat: hit and exp are already high valued stats by the fact the govern the biggest part of our damage directly (SS) and indirectly (more SS = more combo = more finishers = less cd on AR/KS). We would be capping them anyway.

    - Sub: since we will cap hit (and thus poison hit), the battle is between haste and exp. We don't want a dodged rupture to avoid losing SV buff, but since Evis doesn't refresh rupture anymore, we can just press rupture again. Haste brings only positive things - more attacks and more energy. Due to missing talents/gear like 2t12, crit is really devalued (we don't count the 200% damage on poison crits, but i don't expect them to be a huge part of damage as sub).
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