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  1. #1

    Anyone know stat priorities for MoP rogues?

    I can't get to EJ atm, so if you just link to them it won't help me (but it will help everyone else who reads the thread).


    Do we know the stat priorities in mop?


    On live, assassination prefers mastery after agility, yellow hit, and spell hit. We know that will change if only because spell hit is currently the same as yellow hit, but with the rebalancing of poisons, is it possible that, say, haste outperforms mastery single target?

    On live, combat has a huge preference for haste. In part this is because haste stacks multiplicatively with other kinds of haste- for instance, the energy regen boost, and the passive attack speed boost both talented in combat. In mop, the first is lessened and the second is removed. Does this change anything?

    On live, sub really likes crit rating, because backstab crits refund energy. This plus the baseline crit is enough to favor the 2pc firelands heroic gear, for instance. Also contributing is that the other stats aren't that great, but with a bit more emphasis put on finishers, maybe mastery might change places with something?

    Do we know?

  2. #2
    We don't have huge pools of testing - ergo we don't know. If you want, we can make some considerations:

    -for all specs: agility trumps over all, so it does yellow hit.

    -Assassination: mastery is still strong, and haste is good but it doesn't impact on our damage as mastery. The strenght of the rotation is in the evnvenom buff, which grants us all the poison procs we need (compared to haste ofc). Hit won't be less desiderable, just easier to cap due to poisons being on melee hit. Expertise is still a big question, since its interaction with hit is still debated. Anyway being the Envenom buff still on cast and not on hit, dodging envenoms don't hurt us as much as it seems (like on live).

    -Combat: you don't want to miss any RvS or SS, being them still the biggest damage in our rotation so expertise is still higlhy valuable. Other than that haste = more energy = more SS spam; mastery = more procs. I think again, nothing new.

    -Sublety: i think crit will be devalued a lot. No 2t12 nor BS glyph. Haste will still be good but we won't need all that extreme energy to juggle multiple finishers with energetic recovery baked into SnD. Mastery has been buffed, but finishers damage is a too little part of the entire rotation. Needs more testing, i'm not sure about anything for sub.

    These are my suppositions - take them as a grain of salt.

  3. #3
    Regarding sub, unless I missed something changing -- you'll be using the same number of finishers after opening on a target, just swapping recup for rupture since it doesn't regen automatically. List shift from SnD/recup/evis (post-rup) to SnD/Rup/Evis... and I'm guessing with SV changes it's going to be incredibly important to keep rup near 100% in spite of likely override issues from temporary procs -.-

    Don't have space on my HD to get beta back for testing, but if anything, Sub needs MORE energy than before, and just won't have it... which would lean towards never having evis and/or extreme haste boosts. As for how the stats will end up lined up... time will tell, once we can get in and model it well. Prios shouldn't change too much, I don't think.

  4. #4
    Hrm. Well, it's the same number of finishers, almost. On live, there's 2.5 finishers you need to keep up, right? You have recup, and you have slice, but you also have to press an envenom before rupture falls. In mop, you have rupture, and you have slice, and you just eviscerate when you can, without sacrificing the others. It's a much dumber spec, and I suspect you are correct that haste won't be quite as good for it- but I wonder if it's enough to modify the position of haste. I definitely agree that crit will be much worse compared to live.


    I'm constantly disappointed with combat's mastery. I keep feeling it should be top at single target / flurry, over haste, because it has no other damned purpose- haste at least helps a marginal amount during aoe. But I think Blizzard's philosophy is that haste makes it harder to play correctly, so it should offer the most reward. I wish combat had an actual mastery :/

  5. #5
    Assa:Exp > Agi > Mastery = Haste > Crit > Hit
    Sub: Exp > Agi > Mastery (minimal) > Haste > Crit > Hit
    Combat: Exp > Agi > Haste > Mastery > Hit (minimal) > Crit (1.72 Haste is as good as 1 Agi)

    (Spellhitcap dont exist anymore, EXP Cap = Spellhitcap)

    Overall Combat scales best with Weapon DPS (followed by Sub), and Sub scales best with Agility (followed by Assa), a fast Offhand is always important for Combat and Sub (for Assa there is no other Choice)

    (remind this are very early Sims)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bi0 View Post
    Assa:Exp > Agi > Mastery = Haste > Crit > Hit
    As I understand it, Spellhitcap still exists, only expertise AND hit now both give spellhit, making it easy to reach.
    That would place Meleehitcap before expertise, resulting for the example in Assassination:

    Meleehit > ExpCap > Agi > Mastery >(=) Haste > Crit, with any additional hit being towards the whitehitCap. And yes, Mastery slightly trumps haste.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  7. #7
    I very highly doubt hit or expertise will come above agi, especially at start-of-expansion. Combat will also benefit the most of the three specs from white hit for two reasons. 1: most autoattack damage, 2: Combat Potency, 3: Main Gauche (more hits = more CP/MG procs). I don't see any of the specs taking much value in hit past yellow cap though (yellow cap = poison cap, poisons are on the yellow hit/crit chances now).

    My intuition/guess is this:
    Assassination: Agi > Yellow Hit > Mastery > Haste > Crit ~ Expertise > White Hit
    Combat: Agi > Yellow Hit > Expertise > Haste > Mastery > Crit ~ White Hit
    Subtlety: Agi > Yellow Hit > Haste > Mastery > Expertise ~ Crit ~ White Hit

    Notes:
    First and foremost: Those are purely intuition-based guesses. I used absolutely no math in coming with those stat priorities. They are straight-up educated guesses based on the class mechanics in mists. I'm unsure where expertise will lie for sub & assassination, but combat will no doubt continue to value expertise the highest of the three specs.

    Spell hit is not on the stat priority list because poisons are not on spell hit table anymore. They are on yellow hit so yellow hit is absolutely identical to poison hit.

    Assassination will benefit most from Crit due to Seal Fate.

    I may be undervaluing expertise for assassination due to blindside procs, assuming a dodged dispatch consumes the buff.

    Combat will benefit most from Expertise & white hit because of Combat Potency and Main Gauche. Doubtful white hit will be better than crit like in cata though, but it just may be better again.

    The gap between haste and mastery for combat will be closer at low gear levels than in cata, in late mists gear levels I wouldn't be surprised if mastery overtakes haste. This is because Main Gauche is 120% weapon damage in mists instead of 100% and in late cata gear, mastery is already very close to haste at 100% weapon damage.

    Crit is heavily devalued for combat because there is no more lethality and devalued in sub because no lethality & no backstab glyph. Basically combat & sub now have no talents interacting with crit and crit is an expensive stat per 1% crit chance (compared to 1% haste or 1% hit). I am not considering HaT for sub because the assumption is that HaT will likely be fed a combo point from the raid generally as soon as the ICD is up.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 10:53 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Assassination: Agi > Yellow Hit > Mastery > Haste > Crit > Expertise > White Hit
    You are wrong about expertise in Assassination. While Meleehit and Spellhit are the same, Spellhitcap and Meleehitcap are not, that would give casters an unfair advantage in their sec.stat/reforging choice. The trick is: A lvl 93 Mob (aka. Boss) has a 7.5% chance for a Meleeattack to miss, a 7.5% chance to dodge it, and a 15% chance for a spell to miss, and no, poisons are still considered spells, since they do nature damage. So, since a large portion of assassination damage is poison, you need to reach 15% spellhit.

    Now, there are two ways to do this: either you stack Hit until 15% (thats what casters will have to do since there is no exp on castergear), or you stack hit until you reach the meleehitcap (7.5%) and exp until you hit the dodge cap...at which point you will also have spell hit at 15% because expertise increases your spell hit as well as lowering the dodge chance your target has towards you.
    The "caster-way" would be idiotic for a rogue, wasting secondary stats into hit where it is not necessary. Also, you would lose poison damage for an attack that is dodged cannot apply poison.

    The exp needed to reach the dodge cap increases your spellhit by exactly 7.5%...since meleehit and spellhit are the same thing, 7.5 + 7.5 = 15%, and thats your spellhitcap right there.

    So yes, expertise is important for assassination. Your stat priority would severely gimp an assassination rogues damage, because a considerable amount of his poison damage would be lost in the spell miss chance.
    Last edited by Sorzzara; 2012-08-01 at 11:12 AM.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    You are wrong about expertise in Assassination. Spellhitcap and Meleehitcap are not the same, that would give casters an unfair advantage in their sec.stat/reforging choice. The trick is: A lvl 93 Mob (aka. Boss) has a 7.5% chance for a Meleeattack to miss, and a 15% chance for a spell to miss, and no, poisons are still considered spells, since they do nature damage. So, since a large portion of assassination damage is poison, you need to reach 15% spellhit.

    Now, there are two ways to do this: either you stack Hit until 15% (thats what casters will have to do), or you stack hit until you reach the meleehitcap (7.5%) and exp until you hit the dodge cap...at which point you will also have spell hit at 15% because expertise increases your spell hit as well as lowering the dodge chance your target has towards you.

    I didn't say spell hit cap and melee hit cap are the same. I said poisons go off the MELEE hit cap, not the spell hit cap. As in 7.5% hit and your poisons won't miss. You could be at 7.5% hit, 0.00% expertise, and your poisons will still never miss. Trust me, I am not wrong, this has been tested and confirmed.

    Damage type has NO RELEVANCE to what kind of hit/crit mechanics the spell uses. Lava Lash does fire damage. Frost strike does frost damage. Rogue autoattacks do shadow damage during shadow blades. Enh shaman autoattacks and storm strike do nature damage during Ascendance. All of these attacks go off melee mechanics, not spell mechanics. Poisons are based on melee mechanics (with the exception that they can not be dodged, which means they do not scale from expertise at all).

    You can just collapse the spell section of your character sheet and move it to the bottom. NONE of that information is relevant to rogues in mists.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 11:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    I didn't say spell hit cap and melee hit cap are the same. I said poisons go off the MELEE hit cap, not the spell hit cap. As in 7.5% hit and your poisons won't miss. You could be at 7.5% hit, 0.00% expertise, and your poisons will still never miss. Trust me, I am not wrong, this has been tested and confirmed.
    Poisons will never miss with 7.5% hit, but they can fail to reach the target, not unlike a dodge (Lets call that the "lore"-explanation behind the system, in brutal combat-log-reality, they will simply miss"), and that is exactly the thing that exp changes, and thats exactly the reason why it is as important for rogues as it is for shamans and DKs. Blizzard simply normalized everything out.

    But go ahead and use assassination with no expertise. According to your post, neither frost DKs nor enhancershamys should use expertise, and assassination rogues are top of the class, simply because we can ignore expertise and reforge it into additional haste/mastery/whatever.

    I would REALLY like to see the tests and confirmation you are talking about, for all I read and my own beta testing says otherwise.


    Edit: I took the liberty and searched for the official statement, here it is: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/454...-3_1_2012#blog

    I quote:
    Hit and spell hit will no longer be separate stats. The hit stat negates melee miss and spell miss.

    Expertise will negate dodge and spell miss, then parry.

    Against a +3/boss level creature: 15% spell miss, 7.5% melee miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry (from the front only), 7.5% block (from the front only).
    So, what I said in my above post was completely correct. You can either have 7.5% hit + 7.5% exp to ensure your poisons will always hit, or 15% hit (in which case your target will dodge melee strikes) or 15% exp, but I think we all agree that would be insane.

    The same is true for all spell damage done by a DK, an Enhancer and a Rogue. Otherwise, these three would have the luxury of completely ignoring expertise, which would be illogical.
    Last edited by Sorzzara; 2012-08-01 at 11:56 AM.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  11. #11
    The point is around the interaction of hit/exp and the poison real hit cap.

    If poisons are on yellow hit, capping 7.5% hit will make them miss no more. Other than that they can only be hit or crit.

    If poisons are on "spell hit" (read 15%), then the optimal solution is 7.5hit + 7.5exp. You can obviuosly go for 15% hit only, but it's pretty easy to understand that it isn't good, since hit over 7.5% will lose the yellow hit weight, while expertise will bring additional value (avoid melee dodge + "spellhit") becoming better than hit when you have yellow hit capped.

    So, if the cap to reach is 7.5%, exp won't be much good apart for combat.
    If the cap is still 15% (which it should be from my tests), assa WILL cap expertise along with yellow hit.

  12. #12
    Poisons are on the melee hit table in MOP. If you cap yellow hit, you also cap poison hit (7.5%).

    It would be a big ask for Rogues to get to 15% after losing Precision, and also cap Expertise. On the beta it is almost impossible for casters to hit cap at the moment (at17%). It is not possible to do that even if you reforge everything to hit and gem full hit. We are lucky we only need 7.5%.

    Expertise only reduces Dodge and Parry chance and so does not increase in relative value.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    Poisons are on the melee hit table in MOP. If you cap yellow hit, you also cap poison hit (7.5%).

    It would be a big ask for Rogues to get to 15% after losing Precision, and also cap Expertise. On the beta it is almost impossible for casters to hit cap at the moment (at17%). It is not possible to do that even if you reforge everything to hit and gem full hit. We are lucky we only need 7.5%.

    Expertise only reduces Dodge and Parry chance and so does not increase in relative value.
    Are you people deliberately ignoring blue posts? http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/454...-3_1_2012#blog
    Ghostcrawler himself specifically states that there is a 15% spellmisschance, and that expertise reduces the chance to get a dodge, a parry or spellmiss.

    Therefore, you don't have to get the 15% out of hit! 7.5% comes from hit, another 7.5% comes from expertise. You can do a simple addition I assume?

    I am very sorry jtstormrage, but your statement is simply plain wrong. Read blueposts before you spread misinformation.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  14. #14
    Ok, so the choice here is simple.

    - Assa: AGI > yellow hit > expertise > mastery > haste > crit (depends on relative values of mastery and haste anyway)
    - Combat: AGI > yellow hit > expertise > haste > mastery > crit (again, haste is strong as usual but mastery has been buffed)
    - Sub: AGI > yellow hit > john f****ng madden (mostly due to haste still being strong overall, crit being devalued and mastery being lackluster)

  15. #15
    Well, any stat priority that doesn't have expertise and yellow hit exactly the same has misunderstood the system (or I have). A set amount of expertise rating ups the chance your melee and spells hit the boss by the same percentage that a set amount of hit rating ups the chance your melee and spells hit the boss, so those two simply gotta be equal before the cap.


    EDIT- Apparently not, read my post on the next page, or more relevantly what shadowboy says there.
    Last edited by Verain; 2012-08-01 at 06:34 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    I didn't say spell hit cap and melee hit cap are the same. I said poisons go off the MELEE hit cap, not the spell hit cap. As in 7.5% hit and your poisons won't miss. You could be at 7.5% hit, 0.00% expertise, and your poisons will still never miss. Trust me, I am not wrong, this has been tested and confirmed.

    Damage type has NO RELEVANCE to what kind of hit/crit mechanics the spell uses. Lava Lash does fire damage. Frost strike does frost damage. Rogue autoattacks do shadow damage during shadow blades. Enh shaman autoattacks and storm strike do nature damage during Ascendance. All of these attacks go off melee mechanics, not spell mechanics. Poisons are based on melee mechanics (with the exception that they can not be dodged, which means they do not scale from expertise at all).

    You can just collapse the spell section of your character sheet and move it to the bottom. NONE of that information is relevant to rogues in mists.
    You're saying poisons no longer count as spells? I am very interested in testing this when I get home this evening. I was under the impression that they still did, and that you would in fact need 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise. I still feel like that was intended based on all of the blue posts, but if you're right about them no longer being spells, then they are probably on the yellow hit table now.

    Edit: Just found your post on EJ, and it seems you are right. I'm going to test it tonight to be sure, but good find. I would keep your eyes peeled for a future change, though. I still get the feeling this runs contrary to their intentions.
    Last edited by Shimitsu; 2012-08-01 at 04:53 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Therefore, you don't have to get the 15% out of hit! 7.5% comes from hit, another 7.5% comes from expertise. You can do a simple addition I assume?
    YOU DON'T NEED 15% HIT FOR POISONS. You only need 7.5% hit. Period.

    I will repost with a log in an hour or so to demonstrate that fact.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 05:25 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    See, you've bolded the part you don't get.

    YOU DON'T NEED 15% HIT FOR POISONS. You only need 7.5% hit. Period. 7.5% Hit and 0% expertise will STILL cap poisons.

    Okay, for the last freakin time...read the bluepost I linked. I wont repeat this any longer. I grow tired of you. This is the last time I'm gonna say this:

    All magic damage, no matter if it is caused by a spell, a Froststrike, a DoT-Tick or a rogues Poison has an innate chance of 15% to miss a lvl 93 Mob in MoP. To prevent this, you need Spellhit. Spellhit comes from Hit and expertise. Since you need 7.5% of each anyway to keep Meeleestrikes from missing/dodgeing, If you cap hit and expertise, you also cap Poisons. If you only cap hit to 7.5, then 7.5% of all Poison damage you cause, DP DoT, DP proc, VM proc will miss.

    Again, this was the last time I'm gonna repeat this for you and all the others who still don't get it and believe themselves to know moe about the game than ghostcrawler himself. If you don't believe me, fine, I hereby officially stop caring. The less rogues pull the necessary numbers and get kicked out of raids, the better for me, having raidspot choice is always nice.

    Peace.
    Last edited by Sorzzara; 2012-08-01 at 05:07 PM.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    I very highly doubt hit or expertise will come above agi, especially at start-of-expansion. Combat will also benefit the most of the three specs from white hit for two reasons. 1: most autoattack damage, 2: Combat Potency, 3: Main Gauche (more hits = more CP/MG procs). I don't see any of the specs taking much value in hit past yellow cap though (yellow cap = poison cap, poisons are on the yellow hit/crit chances now).
    Something to point out here is combat's auto attack dmg is about the same assassination and sub now. The reason is that Shadow blades is now used with every ar. And shadow blades replaces your auto attack shadow blades count as a special attack so it doesn't have the duel wield hit cap while active. Making auto attack about 19-20% of your dmg overall vs 33%+ without shadow blades.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Okay, for the last freakin time...read the bluepost I linked. I wont repeat this any longer. I grow tired of you. This is the last time I'm gonna say this:

    All magic damage, no matter if it is caused by a spell, a Froststrike, a DoT-Tick or a rogues Poison has an innate chance of 15% to miss a lvl 93 Mob in MoP. To prevent this, you need Spellhit. Spellhit comes from Hit and expertise. Since you need 7.5% of each anyway to keep Meeleestrikes from missing/dodgeing, If you cap hit and expertise, you also cap Poisons. If you only cap hit to 7.5, then 7.5% of all Poison damage you cause, DP DoT, DP proc, VM proc will miss.

    Again, this was the last time I'm gonna repeat this for you and all the others who still don't get it and believe themselves to know moe about the game than ghostcrawler himself. If you don't believe me, fine, I hereby officially stop caring. The less rogues pull the necessary numbers and get kicked out of raids, the better for me, having raidspot choice is always nice.

    Peace.
    except i am quite sure blizzard already stated that rogue poisons are no longer on the spell hit table.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4044506920#3

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