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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by marcelos11 View Post
    except i am quite sure blizzard already stated that rogue poisons are no longer on the spell hit table.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4044506920#3
    Except that this is not a bluepost, but a random guy on the forum, who misinterprets the stat changes.

    Edit: I wrote an explanation about how he got it wrong here, but since I no longer really care, I deleted it.
    Last edited by Sorzzara; 2012-08-01 at 05:24 PM.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord AceofHarts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Why the hell am I still answering? I need more coffee...

    Except that this is not a bluepost, but a random guy on the forum, who misinterprets the stat changes. Its true that we will no longer need to worry about spellhitcap, because expertise will provide us with the missing 7.5%. Thats the thing neither the guy to whoms post your link leads nor you seem to grasp.

    I'm sorry to sound condescending here, but it is pretty frustrating to explain something to people who seem to deliberatly ignoring facts and making wild guesses. Again...go on the beta, try it for yourself.
    ill try to put it nicely for you. heres the part i want to empasize.

    Spell hit will no longer matter for rogues; we'll only need to reach the melee hit cap (which will be 7.5% against bosses), since poisons will work off melee hit chance.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by marcelos11 View Post
    ill try to put it nicely for you. heres the part i want to empasize.

    Spell hit will no longer matter for rogues; we'll only need to reach the melee hit cap (which will be 7.5% against bosses), since poisons will work off melee hit chance.
    Then by all means, do exactly that and see for yourself.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Something to point out here is combat's auto attack dmg is about the same assassination and sub now. The reason is that Shadow blades is now used with every ar. And shadow blades replaces your auto attack shadow blades count as a special attack so it doesn't have the duel wield hit cap while active. Making auto attack about 19-20% of your dmg overall vs 33%+ without shadow blades.
    No, combat's autoattack damage is more than Assassination and sub. Combat gets +75% offhand damage. That and the bonus AP from vitality are the driving forces behind its autoattack damage, not lightning reflexes.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 05:29 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    No, combat's autoattack damage is more than Assassination and sub. Combat gets +75% offhand damage. That and the bonus AP from vitality are the driving forces behind its autoattack damage, not lightning reflexes.
    What does any of that have to do with what I said. lightning reflexes? Did you even read what I said or did just hit quote and make up a reply?

  6. #26
    Here is the log I promised. Hopefully this will prove definitely to some people that you do not need to cap expertise to negate poison miss:

    The log was based on autoattacks only for about 57 minutes (nearly the full duration of wound poison) on a level 93 dummy.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...9f3/details/8/

    Here is a thorough analysis of what to look for.

    There are four spells on the log. Melee, Main Gauche, Wound Poison, and Elemental Force (weapon enchant). Each are an important point in the generated evidence.

    My stats for the run were +7.63% hit and +1.84% expertise. Spell hit was at +9.48%. This puts autoattack miss chance at 18.87%. 5.66% dodge chance, and spell miss chance at 5.52%.

    Looking at autoattacks:
    There were 3847 swings total (hit + crit + glance + dodge + miss).
    There are 201 dodges and 743 misses, for 5.22% and 19.31%, respectively. These values are reasonably close to the expected dodge and miss chances.

    Looking at Main Gauche:
    Main Gauche has 291 total procs, with 20 dodges (6.87%), with no misses. This demonstrates clearly that we're at yellow hit cap but not expertise capped.

    Looking at Elemental Force:
    Elemental Force is a weapon enchant that has a chance to deal elemental damage. There were 460 procs with 27 misses (5.87%). The low number of crits and the misses suggest very very strongly (definitively conclusive, in fact) that elemental force is based on spell hit/crit mechanics. The fact that there are misses demonstrates that I am not spell hit capped, and the number of misses is reasonably close to the 5.52% expected spell miss.

    Wound Poison:
    988 procs without a single miss. The chance of not having a poison miss at 5.52% miss chance in 988 procs is 2.9 x 10^(-343) percent. That's on par with seeing quantum mechanical phenomena on a macroscopic scale.

    QED, you do not have to cap expertise for poisons. That "expertise adds to spell hit" exists in the game so that enhancement shaman don't have to get to 15% hit AND 7.5% expertise, since they use actual spells heavily in their rotation. Paladin seals have been on melee hit for a while now and I'm not sure if they moved dk spells to melee hit, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, which would make unholy WANT expertise cap, but I digress.


    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    What does any of that have to do with what I said. lightning reflexes? Did you even read what I said or did just hit quote and make up a reply?
    It has everything to do with what you said. Combat has more haste on live because of LR. LR is part (but not all) of the reason combat does so much more autoattack damage on live than the other specs. LR however is not the primary reason for combat's autoattack damage. The reasons are ambidexterity (mostly this) and vitality. Consequently the loss of LR doesn't change that fact. Nothing about mists changes the fact that combat is the "autoattack" spec.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 06:28 PM.

  7. #27
    Scarab Lord AceofHarts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Here is the log I promised. Hopefully this will prove definitely to some people that you do not need to cap expertise to negate poison miss:

    The log was based on autoattacks only for about 57 minutes (nearly the full duration of wound poison) on a level 93 dummy.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...9f3/details/8/

    Here is a thorough analysis of what to look for.

    There are four spells on the log. Melee, Main Gauche, Wound Poison, and Elemental Force (weapon enchant). Each are an important point in the generated evidence.

    My stats for the run were +7.63% hit and +1.84% expertise. Spell hit was at +9.48%. This puts autoattack miss chance at 18.87%. 5.66% dodge chance, and spell miss chance at 5.52%.

    Looking at autoattacks:
    There were 3847 swings total (hit + crit + glance + dodge + miss).
    There are 201 dodges and 743 misses, for 5.22% and 19.31%, respectively. These values are reasonably close to the expected dodge and miss chances.

    Looking at Main Gauche:
    Main Gauche has 291 total procs, with 20 dodges (6.87%), with no misses. This demonstrates clearly that we're at yellow hit cap but not expertise capped.

    Looking at Elemental Force:
    Elemental Force is a weapon enchant that has a chance to deal elemental damage. There were 460 procs with 27 misses (5.87%). The low number of crits and the misses suggest very very strongly (definitively conclusive, in fact) that elemental force is based on spell hit/crit mechanics. The fact that there are misses demonstrates that I am not spell hit capped, and the number of misses is reasonably close to the 5.52% expected spell miss.

    Wound Poison:
    988 procs without a single miss.

    QED, you do not have to cap expertise for poisons. That "expertise adds to spell hit" exists in the game so that enhancement shaman don't have to get to 15% hit AND 7.5% expertise, since they use actual spells heavily in their rotation. Paladin seals have been on melee hit for a while now and I'm not sure if they moved dk spells to melee hit, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, which would make unholy WANT expertise cap, but I digress.




    It has everything to do with what you said. Combat has more haste on live because of LR. LR is part (but not all) of the reason combat does so much more autoattack damage on live than the other specs. LR however is not the primary reason for combat's autoattack damage. The reasons are ambidexterity (mostly this) and vitality. Consequently the loss of LR doesn't change that fact. Nothing about mists changes the fact that combat is the "autoattack" spec.
    well i guess that just proves the point we were all trying to make to Sorzzarra

  8. #28
    "Wound Poison:
    988 procs without a single miss.

    QED, you do not have to cap expertise for poisons. That "expertise adds to spell hit" exists in the game so that enhancement shaman don't have to get to 15% hit AND 7.5% expertise, since they use actual spells heavily in their rotation. Paladin seals have been on melee hit for a while now and I'm not sure if they moved dk spells to melee hit, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, which would make unholy WANT expertise cap, but I digress."


    AHA! I get it now. That would make hit rating more valuable than expertise before the cap- If you are looking at 10000 strikes and pretend that 5000o f them proc wound poison, and assume that you have enough hit and expertise such that you will have 4% of your attacks miss and 4% dodged, then this also means that of the 5000 hits that would proc wound, 400 do not because the weapon blow misses or is dodged- but of the 4600 that DO get through, 184 of them miss due to hit rating.

    Adding 1% expertise to this will mean that of the 10000 strikes, 4% miss and 3% are dodged, and that of the 5000 hits that proc wound poison, 350 do not because the weapon blow misses or is dodged- but that of the 4650 that DO get through, 186 miss due to hit rating.

    Instead adding 1% hit, means that of the 10000 strikes, 3% miss and 4% are dodged, and that of the 5000 hits that proc wound poison, 350 do not because the weapon blow misses or is dodged- but that of the 4650 strikes that DO get through, 139.5 miss due to hit rating.

    The second case is more favorable. I think that makes sense.

  9. #29
    Correct. Poison damage double dips from hit. First hit rating increases the chance that an attack will land (it must land before you get a poison proc), then it decreases the chance that the poison will miss. One way of putting it is that poisons are on a two-roll system with each swing. First roll is if the swing lands, second roll is if the poison lands.

    One thing I should probably test is whether or not expertise increases poison hit chance in the absence of hit rating. (ie, will poison be hit-capped at 0% hit and 7.5% expertise).

    I think I'll do that now by doing the reverse of the test I just did (remove hit gear and reforge out of hit while retaining expertise cap. When I did that test above I removed my helm (has a large chunk of expertise and no hit on it), and unreforged everything that was reforged into expertise. This allowed me to retain my 7.63% hit while dropping the 7.52% expertise to 1.84%.


    Edit: I just started testing and within the first minute I got a poison miss even though I am expertise-capped, so poison hit chance scales from melee hit and expertise does not affect the outcome of poison avoidance.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 06:52 PM.

  10. #30
    If you're in the business of doing long logs of mechanics, would you be interested in helping us with the EJ mechanics testing threads?
    http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130412-...anics_testing/

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post

    It has everything to do with what you said. Combat has more haste on live because of LR. LR is part (but not all) of the reason combat does so much more autoattack damage on live than the other specs. LR however is not the primary reason for combat's autoattack damage. The reasons are ambidexterity (mostly this) and vitality. Consequently the loss of LR doesn't change that fact. Nothing about mists changes the fact that combat is the "autoattack" spec.
    I'll ask this one more time what does that have to do with what I said?

  12. #32
    Try with exp only, but given the previous log, i expect you to still not miss poisons but to miss attacks.

    The core is how attacks are rolled. If poison procs are counted AFTER an attack lands, getting to 7.5% spell hit through hit or exp doesn't change anything for them. The fact is to know how attacks roll to count them as missed or dodged. If it's a 100-(miss+dodge) single roll, exp and hit will have more or less the same value (if not exact, they are really mirror stats). if misses/dodges are accounted differently, then hit or exp will be stronger and we will simply need one of them.

    Yellow hit has always been the strongest stat beacuse made our yellow attacks not miss, but now exp seems to do the exact same work as hit rating.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    I'll ask this one more time what does that have to do with what I said?
    Then be a little more clear in what you were trying to say. Your post was not very clear.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 07:00 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Then be a little more clear in what you were trying to say.
    There was nothing unclear on what I said you just must have read only 4 words into it.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-08-01 at 07:00 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    There was nothing unclear on what I said you just must have read only 4 words into it.
    Then what does shadow blades have to do with anything? What does a 12sec dps cd every 3min matter in the grand scheme of autoattack damage? I have not tested shadow blades much--it's on the to-do list but I don't find myself on beta much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Try with exp only, but given the previous log, i expect you to still not miss poisons but to miss attacks.

    The core is how attacks are rolled. If poison procs are counted AFTER an attack lands, getting to 7.5% spell hit through hit or exp doesn't change anything for them. The fact is to know how attacks roll to count them as missed or dodged. If it's a 100-(miss+dodge) single roll, exp and hit will have more or less the same value (if not exact, they are really mirror stats). if misses/dodges are accounted differently, then hit or exp will be stronger and we will simply need one of them.

    Yellow hit has always been the strongest stat beacuse made our yellow attacks not miss, but now exp seems to do the exact same work as hit rating.

    I'm doing expertise-only now. I'm seeing misses in elemental force, wound poison, and Main Gauche, with no dodges for autoattacks or MG. Expertise appears to have no effect on the poison attack roll.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pathal View Post
    If you're in the business of doing long logs of mechanics, would you be interested in helping us with the EJ mechanics testing threads?
    http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130412-...anics_testing/
    I largely do this for my own edification/understanding. If I'm curious, I test it myself.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 07:13 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Then what does shadow blades have to do with anything? What does a 12sec dps cd every 3min matter in the grand scheme of autoattack damage?
    Shadow blades replaces auto attack every 1.1mins for combat and every time its up its getting the 20% boost from ar not auto attack. This is more about you having no idea how shadow blades and combat are working together on beta than me being unclear. You were saying white hit rating was more important for combat because it has the most auto attack dmg but combat has more of its auto attack dmg turned into shadow blades than any other spec lowering its overall auto attack dmg to what the other specs are. And shadow blades attacks count as a special attack for hit caps.

    Shadow blades is about 9-10% of your dmg as combat and thats not saying anything for the extra cp's its giving. Shadow blades is very significant to combat's dmg and that dmg is taken directly away from its auto attacks.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-08-01 at 07:19 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Shadow blades replaces auto attack every 1.1mins for combat and every time its up its getting the 20% boost from ar not auto attack. This is more about you having no idea how shadow blades and combat are working together on beta than me being unclear. You were saying white hit rating was more important for combat because it has the most auto attack dmg but combat has more of its auto attack dmg turned into shadow blades than any other spec lowering its overall auto attack dmg to what the other specs are. And shadow blades attacks count as a special attack for hit caps.
    Are you sure shadow blades is on special attack hit? I haven't tested it much but I haven't seen any evidence otherwise. When I did test it I found shadow blades "miss" appearing as melee, not shadow blades in the combat log, so you wouldn't see any misses for shadow blades on recount (or in WoL). If I am correct in this (and confirmation would be nice, I am not positive) then shadow blades doesn't change anything.

    Also the hit scaling from combat does not only come from autoattack damage--it comes from proc behavior (combat potency & MG). MG in particular double-dips from hit for the same reason that poisons do, and hit will increase energy income due to CP behavior (and MG-CP behavior).
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 07:19 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Are you sure shadow blades is on special attack hit? I haven't tested it much but I haven't seen any evidence otherwise. When I did test it I found shadow blades "miss" appearing as melee, not shadow blades in the combat log, so you wouldn't see any misses for shadow blades on recount (or in WoL). If I am correct in this (and confirmation would be nice, I am not positive) then shadow blades doesn't change anything.
    Just tested this about 20 times either I'm getting insanely lucky on getting no misses or shadow blades is capped at 7.5% hit on the raider dummy.

  19. #39
    I've been testing it and I'm seeing the same results as you. Although I am seeing the odd combat log bug where a shadow blades miss or dodge is appearing as "melee" in recount (as "attack" in the combat log).

    I am presuming they are shadow blades attacks--they could be main gauche. Looking at timestamps should help confirm that. I want to log a few more SB cooldowns first though.

    Testing as sub (or even untalented) should be better confirmation. Didn't consider that before starting though.


    Edit: I restared untalented and I am definitely seeing something other than shadow blade show as a miss during shadow blades in the combat log.

    such as this:
    Code:
    8/1 16:27:25.340  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121473,"Shadow Blade",0x20
    8/1 16:27:25.340  SWING_MISSED,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,MISS
    8/1 16:27:25.892  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121473,"Shadow Blade",0x20,124,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
    8/1 16:27:26.491  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121474,"Shadow Blade Off-hand",0x20
    8/1 16:27:26.491  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121474,"Shadow Blade Off-hand",0x20,67,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
    8/1 16:27:26.724  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121473,"Shadow Blade",0x20
    8/1 16:27:27.225  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121473,"Shadow Blade",0x20,117,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
    8/1 16:27:27.575  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121474,"Shadow Blade Off-hand",0x20
    8/1 16:27:27.808  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121474,"Shadow Blade Off-hand",0x20,61,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
    8/1 16:27:27.808  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121473,"Shadow Blade",0x20
    8/1 16:27:28.161  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121473,"Shadow Blade",0x20,112,-1,32,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
    8/1 16:27:28.759  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x01000000003FEEE4,"Shadowvenom",0x511,0x0,0xF13079AA00006AA7,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,121474,"Shadow Blade Off-hand",0x20

    I highlighted the unusual line in bold. This was done in a completely statless gear set so it's base 10% melee haste (from swiftblade's cunning), with no hit, crit, haste, expertise, or mastery.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-01 at 08:40 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post

    Edit: I restared untalented and I am definitely seeing "attacks" miss during shadow blades in the combat log.
    Can't really say what that is other than normal auto attack but dodged or missed shadow blades show up as shadow blade dodged or miss not attack. I took off all my gear and did it and dodges and miss definitely show up as shadow blade dodge and misses not attack.

    Honestly all this really isn't making a lot of sense. On the one hand we've got auto attack miss in a time that auto attack shouldn't be there and then shadow blades itself is listed as the miss if it misses so it looks like its two different things going on. It is beta so maybe something is bugged.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-08-01 at 08:54 PM.

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