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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrion View Post
    Not sure about your 4th point. I mean, it's logical enough, but Cataclysm didn't follow it, so it's not a written in stone example.
    Cataclysm did follow it, but the lost maelstrom charges were worth less dps than the gained SS/LL executions at the time. Even then, it wasn't exactly a huge difference (putting MWx5 above SS/LL is only a hundred or so DPS lost in Cata).
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2012-08-21 at 12:48 AM.

  2. #142
    Deleted
    I was explaining why MW5 Lightening Bolt is not top priority, but okay.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    1st, the simcraft profile is using UF.
    That's stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    2nd, "barely stronger than earth shock" means a lot less in MoP than it did in Cata, because Earth Shock was buffed significantly.
    Or Lightening Bolt was just nerfred too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    4th, "min/max" means "minimizing losses, maximizing gains." You only seem to be focused on the 2nd part of that equation. Placing 5 stack MW above our weapon strikes minimizes the number of maelstrom charges we waste.
    Yeah, and in Cataclysm we clearly care about losing MW stacks. And we clearly was doing that in the name of minimazing losses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    5th, neither those tooltip values nor the DPET chart on simcraft include Echo procs, which closes part of the gap between LB (+ES) and EB/SS/LL (if you pick echo as your t60 talent)
    You should try math, sometimes. Elemental Blast deals 42,036. Lightening Bolt deals 13,089. Ligthening Bolt needs to be echoed and both of them have to be critical strikes to actually deal more then non-crit Elemental Blast. And Elemental Blast can echo too. And crit. I woudn't call that "closing gaps". But you know better, okay. Stormstrike buff makes that 4-5/10 LB to be critical. Bo so does with Earth Shock.

    Ah, and, overall, Stromstrike deals more damage then Elemental Blast. YAY?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    (putting MWx5 above SS/LL is only a hundred or so DPS lost in Cata).
    Pics or it did not happen.


    [User was infracted for this post]

    Play nice.
    Last edited by Endus; 2012-08-21 at 01:29 AM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Pietrzyk View Post
    That's stupid.
    It's more dps than EB, so why is it stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietrzyk View Post
    Or Lightening Bolt was just nerfred too much.
    It's still way stronger than Cataclysm's lightning bolt. 95.8% of the SP coefficient, but 200% damage crits and 30% chance for duplication via echo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietrzyk View Post
    Yeah, and in Cataclysm we clearly care about losing MW stacks. And we clearly was doing that in the name of minimazing losses.
    See above. Cataclysm's lightning bolt is significantly weaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietrzyk View Post
    You should try math, sometimes.
    Yes. Let's try math.

    Here are my shaman's self-buffed stats on the beta:

    27373 AP / 15055 SP
    13500 agility + 2813 crit rating = 18.33% crit (melee) / 6.98% crit (spell)
    6351 mastery = 37.17% bonus fire/frost/nature damage
    9817-13875 mainhand / 4908-6938 offhand weapon damage

    This results in the following average hit values (post-armor mitigation):
    53603.5 elemental blast
    34685.1 stormstrike (MH+OH)
    16842.0 lightning bolt
    15982.5 earth shock

    Add +6% EB damage and +30% LS/ES damage (echo):
    56819.7 elemental blast
    34685.1 stormstrike (MH+OH)
    21894.6 lightning bolt
    20777.3 earth shock

    Add in crits:
    0.9302(56819.7) + 0.0698(56819.7*2.06) = 61023.7 elemental blast
    0.8167(34685.1) + 0.1833(34685.1*2.06) = 41424.3 stormstrike
    0.6802(21894.6) + 0.3198(21894.6*2.06) = 29316.6 lightning bolt
    0.6802(20777.3) + 0.3198(20777.3*2.06) = 27820.5 earth shock

    LB is already up to 71% of SS's value, instead of what the original numbers implied (~49%), and that's before considering the fact that UF > EB as a level 90 talent (bringing LB up to ~85% of a SS), or that raid buffs benefit LB more than SS (+11.6% weapon damage and +6.67% melee crit vs. +24.2% LB damage and +5.00% spell crit on the character sheet), which significantly outweighs the minor advantage that SS has from raid debuffs (+4.4ish% physical damage (armor debuff) and +4% physical damage (phys. vulnerability) vs. +5% magic damage (magic vulnerability))
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2012-08-21 at 01:40 AM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Cataclysm did follow it, but the lost maelstrom charges were worth less dps than the gained SS/LL executions at the time. Even then, it wasn't exactly a huge difference (putting MWx5 above SS/LL is only a hundred or so DPS lost in Cata).
    No, Cataclysm didn't follow it. Enhancement did not place MW5 above weapon strikes.

    Mists might follow it again, though I have doubts with LB's scaling nerfs and Stormstrike's recent buff.

  5. #145
    Deleted
    Loking at simcraft, the priority doesn't change that much anyway.

    What i could say defiitely is that SS and LL will still be our highest priority, maybe LL>SS under certain circumstances.

    After that, obviously LB comes, UE+FS, ES. With UF i'd definitely favor UW over all MW5 since UE buffs our LB-damage.

    So for me, it would be like:

    SB>LL>=SS>UW>MW5>UF+FS>ES.

    EB definitely impacts our play style so a lot of things changes for that, even hardcasting becomes even more important.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 04:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Orrion View Post
    No, Cataclysm didn't follow it. Enhancement did not place MW5 above weapon strikes.

    Mists might follow it again, though I have doubts with LB's scaling nerfs and Stormstrike's recent buff.
    Strikes will be more important for sure. LL hits for 100% more before EotE. SS doesn#t hit for a lt more, but you should not forget that usually, when your SS is ready, the +25% crit chance debuff is gone already. So in one case, you hit LB and SS, both do nearly equal damage. In the other case you have SS and +25% crit chance on LB. Obviously the second one will win.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrion View Post
    No, Cataclysm didn't follow it.
    Yes, it did. Placing strikes above MW doesn't mean we didn't min/max in cataclysm. All it means is more strikes was worth more than less wasted maelstrom charges at the time.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2012-08-21 at 04:36 AM.

  7. #147
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orrion View Post
    No, Cataclysm didn't follow it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Yes, it did.
    To be clear, "it" was this;

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    4th, "min/max" means "minimizing losses, maximizing gains." You only seem to be focused on the 2nd part of that equation. Placing 5 stack MW above our weapon strikes minimizes the number of maelstrom charges we waste.
    Cata definitely did follow the precepts of min/maxing; all expansions do. That we may have drawn different conclusions in Cata than in WotLK based on those concepts was not what Nitwit was trying to say. "Minimizing losses" is always important; this is why Elemental uses Fulmination at 8 stacks when Flame Shock is running low; not using Fulmination early means that either Flame Shock would fall off, or charges wouldn't be discharged and you could gain charges over 9, losing them. It's a decision based on that premise.


  8. #148
    Deleted
    Cata definitely did follow the precepts of min/maxing; all expansions do. That we may have drawn different conclusions in Cata than in WotLK based on those concepts was not what Nitwit was trying to say. "Minimizing losses" is always important; this is why Elemental uses Fulmination at 8 stacks when Flame Shock is running low; not using Fulmination early means that either Flame Shock would fall off, or charges wouldn't be discharged and you could gain charges over 9, losing them. It's a decision based on that premise.
    Yes, Endus, you're right, but that doesn't mean I should place MW5 above my melee strikes, and that's what Nitwit was also saying.

    Add +6% EB damage and +30% LS/ES damage (echo):
    56819.7 elemental blast
    34685.1 stormstrike (MH+OH)
    21894.6 lightning bolt
    20777.3 earth shock
    Stopped reading here. If you count Echo to Lightening Bolt/Earth Shock and comprare them to Stormstrike, then why didn't you mention Stormstrike benefits form Static Shock and can trigger Windfury?
    Last edited by mmoc347b925a37; 2012-08-21 at 04:45 PM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To be clear, "it" was this;



    Cata definitely did follow the precepts of min/maxing; all expansions do. That we may have drawn different conclusions in Cata than in WotLK based on those concepts was not what Nitwit was trying to say. "Minimizing losses" is always important; this is why Elemental uses Fulmination at 8 stacks when Flame Shock is running low; not using Fulmination early means that either Flame Shock would fall off, or charges wouldn't be discharged and you could gain charges over 9, losing them. It's a decision based on that premise.
    Maybe I wasn't being clear enough.

    My contention isn't that Cataclysm didn't follow min/maxing. It was that his example was terrible because we didn't follow the example in Cataclysm. Nitwit as much as spelled out that we didn't follow that example in later posts.

  10. #150
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orrion View Post
    Maybe I wasn't being clear enough.

    My contention isn't that Cataclysm didn't follow min/maxing. It was that his example was terrible because we didn't follow the example in Cataclysm. Nitwit as much as spelled out that we didn't follow that example in later posts.
    And my point was that I'm fairly sure, from context, that it was an example of the principle, not a statement that that specific example remained constant across both WotLK and Cata.

    But I'll allow Nitwit to correct me if I'm in the wrong on that.


  11. #151
    Mechagnome Sforza's Avatar
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    Wonder if this new enhancement would be viable somehow in 3v3 arena... any thoughts?
    Also, is the talents elemental mastery usefull for enhancement? pvp wise

  12. #152
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Campechano View Post
    Wonder if this new enhancement would be viable somehow in 3v3 arena... any thoughts?
    Also, is the talents elemental mastery usefull for enhancement? pvp wise
    It has its uses but IMO any of the other choices will be superior in utility - Especially Echo.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Campechano View Post
    Wonder if this new enhancement would be viable somehow in 3v3 arena... any thoughts?
    Also, is the talents elemental mastery usefull for enhancement? pvp wise
    With my little experience in arenas, I think Enhancement will be pretty good in MoP. Will have some things like Capacitor totem that will be hard to use it to its potential, but there a lot of things that will play in favor of Enhance.

    About Elemental Mastery, could have some use with Ascendance in a situation when you need burst, but then Ancestral Swiftness could be very strong too if you need to use a heal or hex and don't have MW5, and Echo of Elements can save you if it procs in a heal.
    Last edited by Lavindar; 2012-08-21 at 10:26 PM. Reason: adding quote
    Everything that is, is alive.

    Agaor - Enhancement Shaman

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Pietrzyk View Post
    Stopped reading here. If you count Echo to Lightening Bolt/Earth Shock and comprare them to Stormstrike, then why didn't you mention Stormstrike benefits form Static Shock and can trigger Windfury?
    Because I forgot. It doesn't significantly change the analysis, though, and the new changes in the latest beta build invalidate all of the math previously posted.

  15. #155
    Deleted
    Shaman (Forums)

    Stormblast now does 375% weapon damage, up from 300%.


    Enhancement

    Lava Lash now does 250% weapon damage, up from 200%.
    Stormstrike now does 375% weapon damage, up from 300%.
    Oh Lord have mercy!

  16. #156
    Deleted
    If these buffs are staying for MoP, I'm gonna have so much fun at 87+ lvls when we get Ascendance and pop all the CDs in dungeon bosses whilst leveling <3 I already see the big numbers coming

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