1. #1

    Mop - Prot warriors have the worst mastery?

    The past few weeks ive tried to follow the Beta Analysis hoping to see some changes to the tanking model for warriors, i cant help but feel that they have put us in a weird spot between cata and mop.

    The problem im having a hard time to ignore is the fact that our mastery has no guarantee of any effect, nor does said effect stack later cause of blocks and crit blocks set in stone 30% and 60% reduction.

    So, we cant get to Block capped - our shield block cant crit block (making the second half of our mastery useless unless shield block is active, which makes the first half useless) - And we´re still the class with the lowest amount of tank cds.


    Am i the only one hoping for a change in the tanking model before live? so we dont have to wait for the first content patch

  2. #2
    I'm just a druid who played a warrior tank alt in T11, but hasn't block and crit block always been set in stone at 30% and 60% damage reduction respectively? Mastery still increases your chance to block and critically block, which is what it does on live. Am I wrong on that or am I reading you post wrong?

  3. #3
    Mastery is pretty much the same on the beta as on live atm, BUT they changed the avoidance tables, currently there is one table that determines wether we dogde, parry, miss or block.

    On live that means that we can make sure we either block or avoid the hit completely.

    But in mop they changed it to two tables, so it chooses if we dodge, parry or miss - and then it determines if we block or not, making it impossible to get block capped.

  4. #4
    I'll answer with another question, how do you feel about Paladin mastery?

    And also, "Warriors have the least CDs" no longer holds true. Demoralizing Shout (20% damage reduction, 1 min CD), Shield Wall (40%, 2 min), Last Stand (30% hp, 3 min), Rallyng Cry (20% hp, 2 min), Demoralizing Banner (10%, 3 min), Enraged regen or Impeding victory (20% hp in a min).
    Cairne wanted to thank him again, to offer encouragement, praise for a task so successfully completed. For being able to bear such burdens. But Saurfang was an orc, not a blood elf, and lavish compliments and effusion would not be welcomed or wanted.

  5. #5
    Mmm... block can crit regardless of being in Shield Block. The tooltip on Shield Block is more a clarification than anything. About the effectiveness, true, is not 100% assured (like a constant increase of armor), but it doesn't mean the effect does not stack (¿?). The more you have, the more you block, you take less damage, you get more rage.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Mmm... block can crit regardless of being in Shield Block. The tooltip on Shield Block is more a clarification than anything. About the effectiveness, true, is not 100% assured (like a constant increase of armor), but it doesn't mean the effect does not stack (¿?). The more you have, the more you block, you take less damage, you get more rage.
    What i mean about not stacking is that it never does more then 30 or 60% if it blocks.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 06:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    I'll answer with another question, how do you feel about Paladin mastery?

    And also, "Warriors have the least CDs" no longer holds true. Demoralizing Shout (20% damage reduction, 1 min CD), Shield Wall (40%, 2 min), Last Stand (30% hp, 3 min), Rallyng Cry (20% hp, 2 min), Demoralizing Banner (10%, 3 min), Enraged regen or Impeding victory (20% hp in a min).
    Personaly i dont see self healing as much of a Tank cd.

    Mastery: Divine Bulwark
    Increases the damage reduction of your Shield of the Righteous by 0%, adds 0% to your Bastion of Glory, and increases your chance to block melee attacks by 0%.

    I like it more, cause it has an impact on your tanking rotation - It effects your active mitigation, your heal and it still has the passive block mechanic
    Last edited by Nonia32; 2012-08-02 at 06:07 PM.

  7. #7
    Banners don't share a CD.

    I think I get what you're saying, but in the end, hopefully, tuning will be fine. I still believe there should be some flavor between classes and unfortunately Warriors got the short end of it with a "spiky" mastery, meaning you can block 5 attacks in a row for 60% less damage (a lot more than a Paladin can ever achieve with his own mastery) and then block 5 attacks for 30% only (whereas a pally would block all 10 for, say, 40% damage). If I had to choose I'd pick Guardian's mastery, it's uninteresting as fuck but it gets the job done and is extremely reliable.

    You make a good point about a Paladin's mastery being related to active mitigation though. DKs also have this sort of interaction.
    Cairne wanted to thank him again, to offer encouragement, praise for a task so successfully completed. For being able to bear such burdens. But Saurfang was an orc, not a blood elf, and lavish compliments and effusion would not be welcomed or wanted.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    Banners don't share a CD.

    I think I get what you're saying, but in the end, hopefully, tuning will be fine. I still believe there should be some flavor between classes and unfortunately Warriors got the short end of it with a "spiky" mastery, meaning you can block 5 attacks in a row for 60% less damage (a lot more than a Paladin can ever achieve with his own mastery) and then block 5 attacks for 30% only (whereas a pally would block all 10 for, say, 40% damage). If I had to choose I'd pick Guardian's mastery, it's uninteresting as fuck but it gets the job done and is extremely reliable.

    You make a good point about a Paladin's mastery being related to active mitigation though. DKs also have this sort of interaction.
    Hm thought the banners did, my mistake.

    I kinna agree with the druid thought there, it is the most reliable one, but i cant help but feel that one is missing the "active mitigation" part aswell.

  9. #9
    Well, they are trying to make mastery have an effect on the active mitigation by improving the rage you get (more critical blocks, more rage). Mayhaps it's not double dipping enough, and it's not as clear (since it improves shield block, but shield barrier is only improved on the sense of being able to use it more) but the effect is there.
    Last edited by Espada; 2012-08-02 at 06:27 PM.

  10. #10
    It's interesting because Prot mastery partially goes against the active mitigation, because every time you pop Shield Block, half your mastery goes to waste (the passive block part), however the crit part is probably quite important since it generates rage and all.

    This isn't such a problem on live because any % block over 100% gets converted to Critical Block chance, but they changed the tooltip on beta. I can't be sure surplus block chance is simply wasted though (beta realms are down), never occurred to me until now.
    Cairne wanted to thank him again, to offer encouragement, praise for a task so successfully completed. For being able to bear such burdens. But Saurfang was an orc, not a blood elf, and lavish compliments and effusion would not be welcomed or wanted.

  11. #11
    Then if that is what they were trying to go at, getting barrier in under the mastery might have an effect, or simply making block a non - set value kinna like the paladin mastery, so you have a scaling mastery that isnt just "chance upon chance".

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 06:42 PM ----------

    The class is just in a weird place tanking wise.

    I just hope the idea gets abit more clear or they rework the mastery - shield block - shield barrier mess that i feel we´re in atm.

  12. #12
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I don't feel any different tanking (disclaimer: have not done raids yet) so I'm not sure what the concern is about. The only part that feels weird to me right now is whether to use Block or Barrier, or rather what situations dictate to use Block and not Barrier, and vice versa. I was under the impression that an absorb always trumps a block, because with the block we still take the damage, but for all intents and purposes it seems like it works as expected: We use Block most of the time as normal, but when we are against unblockable damage we use Barrier instead.
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  13. #13
    Nonia32 you are all wrong.

    Our Mastery is amazing and we have plenty of CDs.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I don't feel any different tanking (disclaimer: have not done raids yet) so I'm not sure what the concern is about. The only part that feels weird to me right now is whether to use Block or Barrier, or rather what situations dictate to use Block and not Barrier, and vice versa. I was under the impression that an absorb always trumps a block, because with the block we still take the damage, but for all intents and purposes it seems like it works as expected: We use Block most of the time as normal, but when we are against unblockable damage we use Barrier instead.
    The concern for me is how our mastery is going to scale, if its chance upon chance. All i would like to see is some scaling for our active mitigation or atleast for our mastery.

  15. #15
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonia32 View Post
    Personaly i dont see self healing as much of a Tank cd.
    I really think you should start viewing healing as a CD as well. I've seen this way of thinking so many times, especially when people have been comparing CDs between healing classes and specs. The main difference is that healing is usually best put to use as a reactive measure and DR is best used as a proactive measure. If you're about to take a big hit, use a DR ability. If you're already at 10k health a 50% DR is only going to put you at an effective health of 20k which probably won't be enough to save you. Healing yourself for 50k, putting you at 60k, might very well save you in this situation.

    The truth is that they can both be very strong CDs but they're best used in different situations.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    I really think you should start viewing healing as a CD as well. I've seen this way of thinking so many times, especially when people have been comparing CDs between healing classes and specs. The main difference is that healing is usually best put to use as a reactive measure and DR is best used as a proactive measure. If you're about to take a big hit, use a DR ability. If you're already at 10k health a 50% DR is only going to put you at an effective health of 20k which probably won't be enough to save you. Healing yourself for 50k, putting you at 60k, might very well save you in this situation.

    The truth is that they can both be very strong CDs but they're best used in different situations.
    Agreed with this.

    In fact, calculations show that LS will always be better than SW as a panic button. And even abilities like Enraged Regen, are still better panic button than SW, simply because it's not meant to be used as such.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-07 at 06:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonia32 View Post
    The problem im having a hard time to ignore is the fact that our mastery has no guarantee of any effect, nor does said effect stack later cause of blocks and crit blocks set in stone 30% and 60% reduction.

    So, we cant get to Block capped - our shield block cant crit block (making the second half of our mastery useless unless shield block is active, which makes the first half useless) - And we´re still the class with the lowest amount of tank cds.
    As for the Mastery concern. I personally think that our Mastery isn't that bad. You shouldn't ignore the Enrage procs from critical blocks, which represent a very significant part of our overall RPS, and thus survivability.

    I'll be always glad to see a buff, but I don't really think it's needed here.

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