A f2p mmo that is NOT p2w ... that is all we (= I and assuming everyone else) want :(

[Ishau]

I am very interested now in what both Jtbrig7390 and edgecrusherO0 would consider as pay to win.

If you don't consider it as being "the ONLY way to get the best items (in terms of power gains) is by paying for it" then what exactly would you think it could mean?

[PBitt]

Because they can easily net more money if their game is good. TBH, I actually prefer the sub system WoW has...yeah there are some mounts/pets you can only get with real money but on the grand scale of things and the 10 billion items in game, it's not a big deal.

[IEatRoflWafflz]

I wouldn't say so. It'd mean grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding or you pay cash. Which is not exactly appealing.

Agree. I didn't play LoL too much (only 10-15 games) but what threw me off so much was you had to GRIND for ever to get every hero, or pay to play them. Unless you wanted to spend hundreds of hours to be able to play the whole game you had to pay-to-play. Dota 2 is probably a better example where EVERYTHING (literally everything) is free except cosmetics. Every in-game item and hero is available as soon as you open the game. Announcer packs, mega kill packs, Cosmetic items such as hats, shoulders, weapons you can buy (most of them) or find them in games (random drops after games).

[Kilz]

Aion
Vindictus
Continent of the 9th
City of Heroes
Champions Online
Everquest 2
DC Universe Online
Lineage 2

There are a few non pay to win MMO's out there.

F2P = P2Wis a misconception. Yes, there are some P2W MMO's out there, but they're in the overwhelming minority, and are generally the smaller niche import titles. The big title F2P MMO's you see, and most of the smaller ones as well, don't sell power through their stores.

FYI selling experience boosts isn't selling power. Selling a temporary 10% hp buff in the store that you can also acquire in-game without paying a single penny isn't selling power. Selling power is selling "Sword of awesome" that does 500 dps, when "Sword of mediocre" does 300dps and is the best sword you can acquire in-game.

Vindictus is actually kinda a P2W game. You'll find it pretty much impossible to get the best gear if you don't use NX. You have to create a weapon, get two enchants on it which have a chance at destroying the weapon, then enhance it to high levels which require the runes to do so without risking making the weapon a PoS because it failed too many times and has low durability, or worse exploded going for the double digit numbers. After you have the weapon you now need to get two enchants on all of your gear which will destroy some of it. Keep in mind none of the gear is cheap.

Defense/Attack speed/Attack Power in Vindictus can be taken to crazy limits with heavy NX spending. A person with that kind of gear isn't going to be getting hit hard at all, and a person with the basic gear is going to get hit with trucks while being too slow to attack because of low attack speed. The economy of the game just favors NX spenders way too much because of how overpriced everything is. It's the same for DFO, which is another game that Nexon has. The Korean version of these games are much better because of the huge difference in population. An item that goes for 300mill+ could only fetch around 20mill on the Korean version.

[edgecrusher]

I am very interested now in what both Jtbrig7390 and edgecrusherO0 would consider as pay to win.

If you don't consider it as being "the ONLY way to get the best items (in terms of power gains) is by paying for it" then what exactly would you think it could mean?

That's pretty much what I classify it as. Selling gear through the cash shop that is more powerful than what you can get in-game, and selling buffs through the cash shop that you can't acquire in game.

As long as anything you can purchase in the cash shop can be reasonably acquired in-game (not like, Sword X which you can buy for 5 dollars, or spend 300 hours grinding the same mobs to get), I don't consider the game to have a pay to win system.

[Jtbrig7390]

I am very interested now in what both Jtbrig7390 and edgecrusherO0 would consider as pay to win.

If you don't consider it as being "the ONLY way to get the best items (in terms of power gains) is by paying for it" then what exactly would you think it could mean?

Read the rest of my posts.

i was saying Pay 2 win is when you can buy gear like *Sword of stupid badass power of doom* from a cash shop and there is little to nothing in the world/game that is as good or better then it.

Pay 2 Win is not when u can by cosmetic gear or Xp/hp temp buff pots.....if u read all of the posts i was being sarcastic to the person i original replyed to. sorry if i did not make that clear.

[Zogarth]

That's buying convenience though. My brother unlocked every champion, purchased multiple runepages, and purchased every rune he wanted (i.e. ignored the useless ones or the ones he didn't want for any of his builds). He did that without spending money on IP boosts or champions. Sure, it took him a long time, but he managed to do it. Someone who paid money may have accomplished this faster than him (in fact, the surely did), but they are no more powerful than him because of it.

My problem with jumping into LOL was that i started playing with my mates right from the start (That is what a team game is all about imo), but I had a damn har time since my four friends were level 30, and i were level 1. I was weaker than the guy standing in front of me, even tho we had the same items, and the same hero. I find that unacceptable in my world... but again that is just my opinion. And before someone come up with the "that is the same as calling it unfair that you can't kill a full epic guy in WOW in blues") - Well, frankly i also think gear that makes you stronger than others has no place in any kind of PVP. PVP is all about SKILL and not gear in my opinion.

[Nelle]

I really can't see the problem with having subscription based MMOs with loads of content.

In my eyes World of Warcraft is perfect, the vanity pet/mounts sold in the webshop gives them an extra revenue, a thing that keeps the game alive and new content developed, because who would kill a golden cow?

Why do people want "free" games? No matter how you put it, they will ALWAYS suffer and give you less gameplay...

[Ishau]

So if you both would agree with the definition "the ONLY way to get the best items (in terms of power gains) is by paying for it" then how is a game that like City of Heroes not pay to win? You have to pay a sub to unlock the methods to obtain the best items which fits in with the only way to gain the best items is to pay for them.

I have no problems with Dev's getting paid for their time. They are a business and a business needs to make money however it doesn't make it any less pay to win.

I would agree games like LoL (although not an MMO) did get it right. Sure it is a grind to unlock everything but you can eventually without paying for it unlock everything. It clearly works as LoL is one of the most successful F2P games we have.

[edgecrusher]

My problem with jumping into LOL was that i started playing with my mates right from the start (That is what a team game is all about imo), but I had a damn har time since my four friends were level 30, and i were level 1. I was weaker than the guy standing in front of me, even tho we had the same items, and the same hero. I find that unacceptable in my world... but again that is just my opinion. And before someone come up with the "that is the same as calling it unfair that you can't kill a full epic guy in WOW in blues") - Well, frankly i also think gear that makes you stronger than others has no place in any kind of PVP. PVP is all about SKILL and not gear in my opinion.

That's because you were playing with higher level players, so you were being matched up against higher level players. Provided you're playing against similar level players, they're going to have, at best, a minimal advantage if they're buying runes (which low level runes are a waste).

That's like complaining that you are PvPing with friends in WoW who are max level, but you're only level 40. You're fighting level 70's, so of course they're going to smash you :P

As for the item thing, I usually agree (one reason I like how GW2 sets up the sPvP), but in League items exist because they're part of the meta-game. How you build your character has a HUGE impact on how you perform. You're supposed to alter your build to fit your opponents. Heavy AD enemy team? Build more armor. Heavy AP? Build more magic resist. ect. ect.

Skill comes in in knowing HOW to build your characters properly in addition in knowing how to play them properly.

So if you both would agree with the definition "the ONLY way to get the best items (in terms of power gains) is by paying for it" then how is a game that like City of Heroes not pay to win? You have to pay a sub to unlock the methods to obtain the best items which fits in with the only way to gain the best items is to pay for them.

I have no problems with Dev's getting paid for their time. They are a business and a business needs to make money however it doesn't make it any less pay to win.

I would agree games like LoL (although not an MMO) did get it right. Sure it is a grind to unlock everything but you can eventually without paying for it unlock everything. It clearly works as LoL is one of the most successful F2P games we have.

Because that's the nature of the freemium model. The freemium model necessarily puts limits on what content the player has access to. That's one of the reasons I don't consider freemium games truly F2P. They function more as glorified unlimited trials than actual F2P games.

[Kamari]

League of Legends is , besides an awesome game, an example of how it SHOULD be done.
- All champions are available through IP ( game currency earned by playing) and it ISNT a grindfest
- Runes ( the only things that can give you a strong advantage) are not buyable with RP ( buyable currency)
- RP is only used for speeding up the rather trivial leveling ,getting champions faster and COSMETIC changes.

It is ... perfection, or atleast extremely close to perfection.

So why is there no MMO ( that I know of) with a similar currency system?
A game allowing you to play the entire game for free, buy cosmetics for RL money and best of all: ISNT PAY 2 WIN!

I think Subscription is the best model provided that enough content is released to make the subscribers happy. If they aren't, they unsub and it lets the company know that they might be doing something wrong. P2W is just an awful way to go, and as others have said the f2p mmo model similar to LoL is not sustainable by most companies as most games just won't get that large of a player base. Companies should be rewarded for their work. If you don't like a subscription game, you can ALWAYS unsubscribe and come back when they have more content.

[Totori]

I really can't see the problem with having subscription based MMOs with loads of content.

In my eyes World of Warcraft is perfect, the vanity pet/mounts sold in the webshop gives them an extra revenue, a thing that keeps the game alive and new content developed, because who would kill a golden cow?

Why do people want "free" games? No matter how you put it, they will ALWAYS suffer and give you less gameplay...

Not really. Having it free to play doesn't make it suffer from content and game play. Quite honestly WoW has less content and makes you have a subscription fee. Within two years there's only 2 major content patches consisting of one raid each.
The game play has not changed much.
They are also staggering releases in MOP, for what reason though. It's not like it makes the content even harder or anything. It just makes you spend more time waiting allotting an extra sub fee.

Some games like GW2 (though it's not really that interest to me), anecdotally speaking, seems like it brings a lot in terms of game play. I play Tera and love it, but it doesn't mean F2P model means less of anything.

[Athorha]

Aion
Vindictus
Continent of the 9th
City of Heroes
Champions Online
Everquest 2
DC Universe Online
Lineage 2

There are a few non pay to win MMO's out there.

F2P = P2Wis a misconception. Yes, there are some P2W MMO's out there, but they're in the overwhelming minority, and are generally the smaller niche import titles. The big title F2P MMO's you see, and most of the smaller ones as well, don't sell power through their stores.

FYI selling experience boosts isn't selling power. Selling a temporary 10% hp buff in the store that you can also acquire in-game without paying a single penny isn't selling power. Selling power is selling "Sword of awesome" that does 500 dps, when "Sword of mediocre" does 300dps and is the best sword you can acquire in-game.

So if blizzard starts to sell heroic raid quality loot a week after the content patch (once heroics are unlocked) then it's not considered pay to win since players have in game means of obtaining said loot?

[Jtbrig7390]

So if you both would agree with the definition "the ONLY way to get the best items (in terms of power gains) is by paying for it" then how is a game that like City of Heroes not pay to win? You have to pay a sub to unlock the methods to obtain the best items which fits in with the only way to gain the best items is to pay for them.

I have no problems with Dev's getting paid for their time. They are a business and a business needs to make money however it doesn't make it any less pay to win.

I would agree games like LoL (although not an MMO) did get it right. Sure it is a grind to unlock everything but you can eventually without paying for it unlock everything. It clearly works as LoL is one of the most successful F2P games we have.

Once again if u think CoH is Pay to win with its free to play setup then WOW is also Pay to Win cause a level 20 can be beat by people level 20's cause they got better gear then you.....disagree if u but atm wow's f2p setup is the level 20 max one for the simple fact u can play it forever and your limited to what all u can do....same with most if not all f2p/p2p games.

[Nolfster]

As long as anything you can purchase in the cash shop can be reasonably acquired in-game (not like, Sword X which you can buy for 5 dollars, or spend 300 hours grinding the same mobs to get)

This is the holy grail majority which majority f2p games can not find. It is simply about finding the right balance between item cost in store/time required to get it in game.

Also pay2win label is misleading, I don't really like using it and many people tend to be jumping on it very early. But since there is nothing else widely used..

For me p2w is anything that gives you advantage in game over other players, which you can gain by spending extra rl money.

[Doylez]

Imo everything that goes beyond cosmetical changes is pay2win. Whether or not you can earn the "Ubersword +10" ingame as well is completely irrelevant. If you can buy power with real money then that's already pretty much the definition of pay2win. Stuff like XP/Currency-Boost and paying for inventory/bank slots are already barely acceptable for me but things like "HP-boost" or buying items with stats are certainly not. I think Diablo 3 is pretty much the worst kind of pay2win because you can buy EVERYTHING with real money.

[Kolo]

I really can't see the problem with having subscription based MMOs with loads of content.

In my eyes World of Warcraft is perfect, the vanity pet/mounts sold in the webshop gives them an extra revenue, a thing that keeps the game alive and new content developed, because who would kill a golden cow?

Why do people want "free" games? No matter how you put it, they will ALWAYS suffer and give you less gameplay...

So the 5 million people who pay 15 bucks a month are having their money put towards witch hunts and Duck Tales-esque money vault swimming? 75 million dollars a month should cover everything they need to make in game plus salaries plus taxes plus insurance plus repopulating the earth with duck-billed platypus. That's not counting what Asian players end up paying to play because I know that business works completely different.

[Jtbrig7390]

This is the holy grail majority which majority f2p games can not find. It is simply about finding the right balance between item cost in store/time required to get it in game.

Also pay2win label is misleading, I don't really like using it and many people tend to be jumping on it very early. But since there is nothing else widely used..

For me p2w is anything that gives you advantage in game over other players, which you can gain by spending extra rl money.

i agree the problem is people think cosmetic items and hp/xp temp buff pots are pay 2 win when there not lets use wow one moment. if your rested u get a xp buff if u eat food u get a hp buff all of it is temp. so no way is a xp/hp temp buff pot p2w.

[edgecrusher]

So if blizzard starts to sell heroic raid quality loot a week after the content patch (once heroics are unlocked) then it's not considered pay to win since players have in game means of obtaining said loot?

A week after? Yes, because that's an unreasonable amount of time to expect players to geared up in. If they did it say, 6 months after? Well after players have had plenty of chances to clear the instance dozens of times? Nope.

Would I support it and do I support business models like that? Nope. But I don't consider it pay to win either.

[Jtbrig7390]

A week after? Yes, because that's an unreasonable amount of time to expect players to geared up in. If they did it say, 6 months after? Well after players have had plenty of chances to clear the instance dozens of times? Nope.

Would I support it and do I support business models like that? Nope. But I don't consider it pay to win either.

there is a really thin line of P2w/Not P2w and i think the problem is everytime a cash shop shows up people jump on the P2w side and not even think it over all that cross's there mind is *OMG U CAN BUY INGAME STUFF WITH CASH THATS SO P2W*