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  1. #101
    Brewmaster Zenotetsuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Trials like that are HORRIBLE for showing you how the game really is though. WoW or Rift at 20 is NOTHING like it is at max level. Sure you get some of the basics, but there is so much that you will have no idea about by being capped at that low level. If anything, I think TERA did it the best with their streaming trial that gives you a mid level character. Gives you much more of a fell for how the game will play at high(er) levels compared to WoW or Rifts trials.
    meh IDK, I know if I am interested in a game in the first 20 levels or not. I just meant in general though that a trial or extended demo like that is better to me than a fully F2P game that has some of the best parts ripped out and sold in the shop as premium content, but you don't realize how important they are until you get to the point where they become important. I would much rather have the full game to a certain level (obviously with some restrictions to help stop gold spammers and whatnot) to tell me if the game is worth buying, or subbing to.
    A game's controls are a big deciding factor for me, if I can't enjoy how combat feels I can't enjoy the game.

  2. #102
    Only reason people think F2P = P2W is because that is how it was originally delivered. A lot has changed since then, but if you don't know, you believe it as you do.

    The world is flat.

  3. #103
    Bloodsail Admiral WillFeral's Avatar
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    It doesnt matter what format of a game you are playing if you want to win you can pay to get whatever you want,take World of Warcraft for example:Want the best gear in the game and clear all the content? Just pay a guild to carry you through w/e you want.Want a high rating in arena and if you are willing to pay the amount you can get Gladiator as well,just pay some r1's to carry to w/e rating you want or work out a deal with some people and win/trade.

    Regardless of what game you mention you can pay and get w/e you want.
    Here come the Irish.

  4. #104
    Brewmaster Zenotetsuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickynerd View Post
    Only reason people think F2P = P2W is because that is how it was originally delivered. A lot has changed since then, but if you don't know, you believe it as you do.

    The world is flat.
    One problem with that... There are still games being released that are P2W, they just aren't as transparent as the F2Ps once were. Hence this entire discussion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 03:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by WillFeral View Post
    It doesnt matter what format of a game you are playing if you want to win you can pay to get whatever you want,take World of Warcraft for example:Want the best gear in the game and clear all the content? Just pay a guild to carry you through w/e you want.Want a high rating in arena and if you are willing to pay the amount you can get Gladiator as well,just pay some r1's to carry to w/e rating you want or work out a deal with some people and win/trade.

    Regardless of what game you mention you can pay and get w/e you want.
    That isn't what we are talking about. The discussion was about F2P games rewarding people that pay for things by giving them more power than people that don't pay them money, not about people choosing to be stronger than others with no effort by manipulating the game design.
    Last edited by Zenotetsuken; 2012-08-05 at 03:14 AM.

  5. #105
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
    The thing is that if a F2P game is doing it's job properly then the 900 point one (or w/e, been a long time since I played LoL) that is VERY VERY easy and fast to get is just as viable as the 6700 one, so choosing the 6700 one is merely a choice with no direct benefit besides being something different.
    Not saying that it works like that always, but that is why LoL especially isn't and shouldn't be considered P2W. It is your choice to buy the most expensive champion, and with it you are choosing to invest the time into getting it. They design their system on the assumption that the vast majority of players won't pay cash to get a champion, so they sell outfits for all their champions that do nothing but make you more unique.
    That goes for all well designed F2P games. You should never have an advantage over someone simply because you paid cash for something that they either A) Couldn't acquire by playing the F2P model, or B) They made it so restrictively time consuming to compete that you cannot realistically do it without paying.

    If a game were to release a Sword of Awesome (500 dps) for $5, and a Sword of Kick-Ass (500 dps) that you have to do a quest chain, pay x amount of in-game currency, and farm up some difficult mats to craft; It would be a personal choice if you were to decide that the time spent farming wasn't worth it to you.
    If however they released a Sword of Coolstuff (500 dps) as the only alternative to the $5 one that would take you 1000 tear drops (that drop 1 per run) off some boss in an instance to craft a gem that begins the quest like the Sword of Kick-Ass one then that would be classified as P2W IMO, due to being specifically designed to be so time consuming that no one would do it.

    As others have said, I MUCH prefer a P2P method to F2P, because P2P games shouldn't really be selling anything in their cash-shops that would be an impact on yours or other player's experience of the game. I would much rather just buy a game like GW2 and have everything available to me that will affect my game experience than play a F2P game that I need to keep throwing small amounts of money at in order to have the same experience.

    F2P should really only be a demo like WoW's Free Unlimited Trial IMO. Shows you the game world, how the combat feels, the mechanics, and let's you decide if you want to play or not.
    For me it's just mainly anecdotal, but a lot of 6300 IP ones can be overtly OP or will trump another hero regardless.
    New releases as anecdotal speaking tends to be OP and then costs 6300 IP, and then this trend continues every single release, and gets nerfed after a while.

    A game with so many heroes and yet expecting it to be 100% balanced is far from reality.
    To grind out the necessary IP for one purchase is exactly what it is, a grind as shown by the times required I did with the recorded average and a 100% win / 50% win-lose rate.
    To gain one hero you'd be doing exactly what you said, grinding the living hell out of it, or pay for it.
    They have a different cost for a reason. Else if they were all balanced they might as well put the same pricing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
    One problem with that... There are still games being released that are P2W, they just aren't as transparent as the F2Ps once were. Hence this entire discussion.
    The thing is you need to differentiate between the two. I can take Maplestory, it is F2P, and it's cash store is basically all appearance. (Last I played, no idea if it changed).
    Just because some games are P2W and F2P doesn't mean they all are.

    GW2 is another example of F2P / B2P. It's cash store is mainly appearance, and some lazy boosts.

  6. #106
    Brewmaster Zenotetsuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    For me it's just mainly anecdotal, but a lot of 6300 IP ones can be overtly OP or will trump another hero regardless.
    New releases as anecdotal speaking tends to be OP and then costs 6300 IP, and then this trend continues every single release, and gets nerfed after a while.

    A game with so many heroes and yet expecting it to be 100% balanced is far from reality.
    To grind out the necessary IP for one purchase is exactly what it is, a grind as shown by the times required I did with the recorded average and a 100% win / 50% win-lose rate.
    To gain one hero you'd be doing exactly what you said, grinding the living hell out of it, or pay for it.
    They have a different cost for a reason. Else if they were all balanced they might as well put the same pricing.
    The thing is you need to differentiate between the two. I can take Maplestory, it is F2P, and it's cash store is basically all appearance. (Last I played, no idea if it changed).
    Just because some games are P2W and F2P doesn't mean they all are.

    GW2 is another example of F2P / B2P. It's cash store is mainly appearance, and some lazy boosts.
    I never said they were all P2W, the post I quoted was implying that P2W doesn't exist anymore, and I was informing him that it still exists, but it has moved away from overtly P2W and settled into a comfortable grey area.

    The thing with LoL is that you are choosing to not get the cheaper champions, but instead going for what you personally consider the big payoff. That choice right there is the difference. If you are given the starter set, but unhappy with it simply because you view it as inferior, and the monthly (?) rotation of free champions is also not good enough then the problem isn't the game. The class balance between the 900 ones and the 6300 ones isn't gamebreaking, and if it is then it is quickly fixed, or if it is too OP people will just ban it. They want you to spend money, but they have made it so that if you don't want to spend money you are at no more of an advantage or disadvantage as someone that doesn't mind spending money.
    Also I think those figures may be a little off, I never spent a dollar and I got Dr.Mundo, Caitlyn, Warwick, almost all the cheap ones (Annie, Soraka, Nunu, Poppy, Master Yi) and Twisted Fate, and I only played to level 13 I think over the course of maybe a month, 2 tops. Unless the IP has changed drastically over the past 6 or so months I would have to say there is something off with those numbers, or they aren't taking something or another into account.
    Last edited by Zenotetsuken; 2012-08-05 at 06:25 AM.

  7. #107
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
    I never said they were all P2W, the post I quoted was implying that P2W doesn't exist anymore, and I was informing him that it still exists, but it has moved away from overtly P2W and settled into a comfortable grey area.

    The thing with LoL is that you are choosing to not get the cheaper champions, but instead going for what you personally consider the big payoff. That choice right there is the difference. If you are given the starter set, but unhappy with it simply because you view it as inferior, and the monthly (?) rotation of free champions is also not good enough then the problem isn't the game. The class balance between the 900 ones and the 6300 ones isn't gamebreaking, and if it is then it is quickly fixed, or if it is too OP people will just ban it. They want you to spend money, but they have made it so that if you don't want to spend money you are at no more of an advantage or disadvantage as someone that doesn't mind spending money.
    Also I think those figures may be a little off, I never spent a dollar and I got Dr.Mundo, Caitlyn, Warwick, almost all the cheap ones (Annie, Soraka, Nunu, Poppy, Master Yi) and Twisted Fate, and I only played to level 13 I think over the course of maybe a month, 2 tops. Unless the IP has changed drastically over the past 6 or so months I would have to say there is something off with those numbers, or they aren't taking something or another into account.
    There's an IP bonus at low levels. This is going by their statistic of an average game is 37 minutes, with 100 IP win, 68 IP lose.
    So of 6300, 63 wins = 37 minutes * 63 = 2331 minute or 38.85 hours.

    Regardless of how you look at it, it's a grind.

    Remember, from the characters that people call OP are anecdotal, except they always seem to be related to new releases. I personally get bored of LoL/DotA or any related type of games.

  8. #108
    An underestimated f2p game is bloodline champions. Sure, more like LoL than a mmorpg. But people looking for a challange and enjoy wow arena will love that game. A bit high skillcap but system is either unlock heroes or bloodlines as they are called with ingame coins or buy them for cash. You can progress through ladders playing solo or in 2v2 or 3v3 teams. I downloaded the game yesterday and I'm having a blast really
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
    One problem with that... There are still games being released that are P2W, they just aren't as transparent as the F2Ps once were. Hence this entire discussion.[COLOR="red"]
    Of course there is still F2P games that are P2W, now there is an actual difference between the two.

    A few years ago:

    Is it F2P? Yes? Screw that.

    Now:

    Is it F2P? Yes? Cool.

    or

    Is it P2W? Yes? Screw that.

  10. #110
    Brewmaster Zenotetsuken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickynerd View Post
    Of course there is still F2P games that are P2W, now there is an actual difference between the two.

    A few years ago:

    Is it F2P? Yes? Screw that.

    Now:

    Is it F2P? Yes? Cool.

    or

    Is it P2W? Yes? Screw that.
    Yeah, my point was that there are still enough P2W games out there to necessitate the distinction. If all F2P games were released with the same player and dev/publisher accepted cash-shop model then there would be no reason to say "Is it P2W?" It would simply be "That game looks cool, I think I will try that." Unfortunately too many players want/expect the games for free and don't care if a dev gets paid for their work or not, and too many publishers want to monetize as many aspect of a game as they can so that they can milk every possible cent out of it to cover the lost revenue of the people that don't want to pay.
    It is the people in the middle that get screwed over because of it, players that don't mind spending some cash on things, and devs that just want to make their game awesome for people.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
    Yeah, my point was that there are still enough P2W games out there to necessitate the distinction.
    Just out of curiosity, what are all the P2W games? The only ones that I can think of off the top of my head are some of PWE's games >.>

  12. #112
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what are all the P2W games? The only ones that I can think of off the top of my head are some of PWE's games >.>
    I can think of non MMO ones =\

    Gunbound and Rakion, lol.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt View Post
    Yeah, my point was that there are still enough P2W games out there to necessitate the distinction. If all F2P games were released with the same player and dev/publisher accepted cash-shop model then there would be no reason to say "Is it P2W?" It would simply be "That game looks cool, I think I will try that." Unfortunately too many players want/expect the games for free and don't care if a dev gets paid for their work or not, and too many publishers want to monetize as many aspect of a game as they can so that they can milk every possible cent out of it to cover the lost revenue of the people that don't want to pay.
    It is the people in the middle that get screwed over because of it, players that don't mind spending some cash on things, and devs that just want to make their game awesome for people.
    I agree, but they wont. The market is only so big, you start advertising as PW2, you will have removed the largest section of that group. I think the consumers do a well enough job sorting out crappy games.

    There's a sucker born every minute, someone will always be there to take advantage of them.

  14. #114
    I'm fully aware how old this is, however, it is almost the first thing that comes up in google when searching for games that are not P2W. To save everyone time that comes to this thread, every game on the original list is P2W (even slightly) BESIDES a few , EXP boosts and such are NOT p2W in my eyes. I couldn't find info on a few of these games.

    Links to shop pages WERE included until MMOChampion said I'm too much of a newb to post Links.


    Aion: Item Shop sells gear enhancements and weapon enhancements


    Vindictus: Slightly p2w, Cash Shop allows you to create items that you would otherwise NEVER be able to create unless you were the luckiest person in the world and somehow could hit like 2% crafting chance each level.
    Shop only avaible ingame

    Continent of the 9th: NO P2W OPTIONS, Cash shop is PURELY cosmetic (as far as I can tell)


    City of Heroes: Not certain, apparently it's shutting down? (or something)

    Champions Online: P2W, Shop Sells abilities and items that you cannot obtain in game.


    Everquest 2: Couldn't find anything


    DC Universe Online: Free accounts have limited access to the game, with a subscription ALL DLC is available. (Also can be permanently purchased)


    Lineage 2: SUPER OP items sold in the cash shop.
    I.E. Feather of Blessing, Allows you to instantly resurrect at the same spot you died, and 100% of lost EXP is recovered.
    Shop Items include "Special Enchanting Ingredients"

    So, wan't f2p and NO p2w?
    Vindictus: is OK
    C9: is GREAT
    DC Universe: is OK until you get to endgame content, then you must buy DLC or subscribe.
    Lineage 2: is Ok, has an ingame shop I didn't look at.
    Everquest 2: is OK, couldn't really find anything.
    One more recommendation, Tribes: Ascend. Slightly P2W, however, I'm under the impression that everything you can buy, you can get ingame, it may take a long ass time, but you can get it.

    Everything posted is personal opinion and about 5 minutes of research. I've played Vindictus, DCUO, and Tribes: Ascend. Nothing else on the list.
    -cheers.
    P.S. I am not a keyboard turner. -.-
    Last edited by KungFu1337; 2012-11-13 at 06:47 PM.

  15. #115
    2 that i am playing atm RaiderZ and Path of exile.
    RaiderZ has nothing i would consider p2w in their cash shop, the mounts,dyes and weapons/armor are all there for the normal user.
    Path of Exile, a diablo style game is going with cosmetics and leagues(custom difficulties with specific rule sets) though it's not out quite yet it's out by Xmas provided nothing goes wrong.

  16. #116
    The Lightbringer Kathandira's Avatar
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    I personally like P2P better than F2P. I extremely rarely buy anything from a games online market. I'd like to pay and support a company. But i don't want to buy extra pixels.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I personally like P2P better than F2P. I extremely rarely buy anything from a games online market. I'd like to pay and support a company. But i don't want to buy extra pixels.
    This. I prefer to pay 15$ a month then pay 15$ for in-game cash to buy better gear/items.

  18. #118
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehzao View Post
    This. I prefer to pay 15$ a month then pay 15$ for in-game cash to buy better gear/items.
    Well, the better gear / item is the P2W part that a lot of people cringe, this doesn't define F2P.

    It doesn't seem that odd of a difference if you want to support a developer, to just buy a little pet, or some cosmetics gear than to just pay to play. It's still supporting the developer.

  19. #119
    gw and gw2 have been doing it right for 8 years

    people had rather buy cosmetic shit anyway and they give you plenty of options. it's pretty much the future of gaming.

  20. #120
    I would have to say dota2 does what you just stated only MUCH better. Everything buyable in the game is simply cosmetic. There is no way to "pay to win" such as having to wait to unlock all the heros. They are there from the get go.

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