A f2p mmo that is NOT p2w ... that is all we (= I and assuming everyone else) want :(

[Chaoslux]

I also think alot of people are having issue between "Pay 2 Win" where if you pay you are without contest better than anyone else and someone that doesnt pay has no chance against you. (ie: You win all the time because you paid)
And just the "Pay 2 Shortcut" kinda model that lots of F2P have adopted that is NOT p2w and only saves you 40 hours, doesn't guareentee you a win.... That's like saying League of Legend is pay to win...

[Thelxi]

Except that the overwhelming majority of F2P MMO's AREN'T P2W. Companies frequently talk about how P2W is viewed by NA/EU consumers as unacceptable (and Russia), because it's not. P2W really isn't that profitable for the most part since you're limiting your potential audience so much, and a big component of the F2P business model is to give you the broadest market possible.

How naive can you be? FTP is cosmetic stuff only, the moment you can convert real money into game currency with which you can buy the best gear in the game, the game becomes PTW. Don't lie to people.

[Jtbrig7390]

Aion
Vindictus
Continent of the 9th
City of Heroes
Champions Online
Everquest 2
DC Universe Online
Lineage 2

There are a few non pay to win MMO's out there.

F2P = P2Wis a misconception. Yes, there are some P2W MMO's out there, but they're in the overwhelming minority, and are generally the smaller niche import titles. The big title F2P MMO's you see, and most of the smaller ones as well, don't sell power through their stores.

FYI selling experience boosts isn't selling power. Selling a temporary 10% hp buff in the store that you can also acquire in-game without paying a single penny isn't selling power. Selling power is selling "Sword of awesome" that does 500 dps, when "Sword of mediocre" does 300dps and is the best sword you can acquire in-game.

I feel like i seen u post the samething the other day LOL. but i agree people need to learn just cause it has a cash shop dose not mean its Pay 2 Win.

*Personally Opinion* Guild Wars 1/2 is the best B2p games out there that has a cash shop nothing from the shop is needed and mostly cosmetic.

As i said people need to learn what Pay 2 Win is and stop thinking every single cash shop in a mmo is it.

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 07:37 PM ----------

Gotta somewhat disagree with this, it depends how easy the buff is to get. Buying stuff you can acquire ingame is a major shortcut and imo p2w.

and i have to 100% disagree with u cause if buying a temp xp/hp buff is Pay 2 win then having stam pots/food in wow is also a pay 2 win and being rested is pay 2 win since ur paying 15$ a month for the game.......

as i said many times people really need to learn what Pay 2 Win mean's

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 07:39 PM ----------

I think that because P2W is just so profitable, most companies prefer that over a true FTP like LoL.



Pff that is BS. I have played both games extensively for many years and right now you can buy bis gear with adena/kinah you got from selling cash shop stuff. Both games are P2W and both have a hidden monthly fee.

Neather has any kind of monthly fee it is your choice to use there cash shop but both is 100% free. *Aion in the EU dose have less then the US*

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 07:41 PM ----------

This game is extremely pay to win. I have no experience with the other games but CoH is definitely pay to win.

CoH is not P2W. its cash shop dose have class unlocks aka class types u can't get for free. in it but that is normal for any cash shop on a game that has F2p/P2p mixed into it please tell me how CoH is a P2W mmo and if u pay the sub that is 15$ a month u get all of that.

[Chaoslux]

How naive can you be? FTP is cosmetic stuff only, the moment you can convert real money into game currency with which you can buy the best gear in the game, the game becomes PTW. Don't lie to people.

No. It just means you offer shortcuts. Pay to Win would directly sells gear that is BETTER than what you can get with ingame currency or other ingame means.

[edgecrusher]

How naive can you be? FTP is cosmetic stuff only, the moment you can convert real money into game currency with which you can buy the best gear in the game, the game becomes PTW. Don't lie to people.

Excuse me, but please do tell about all these games you can do that in. If you're going to be calling someone a liar, you should have some evidence to back it up. EVE and TERA have sanctioned RMT, but I can't think of another game where that's the case off the top of my head (GW2 will have it, but it's not out).

And considering the fact that the "best" gear in a MMO can RARELY be purchased with in-game currency, I fail to see how that's even relevant.

[Ishau]

How so? I'm not intimately familiar with the cash shop, but when I used it I didn't notice them selling any power. Powersets? Yeah. But straight power? Not that I remember. If that's not the case though and you can provide an example of selling power though, I'll gladly remove that from my, "big title games that aren't P2W" quick list.

The incarnates system is only available by paying a full on sub. This system grants extremely powerful abilities that will make you much stronger (and a higher level so more combat strength aswell as the new power)
The IO system is also something only available if you pay for it. Again this system makes you far stronger than someone who doesn't have access to it. It would be the equivalent of someone in BiS heroic gear vs someone with normal dungeon gear.

I would also consider any game (like SWToR) that gives content granting significant gear upgrades over a F2P player pay to win.

It would be like WoW going F2P and saying that whilst everyone can do arenas if you don't pay you can only earn honor points. Everyone with a Sub and earning conquest points will smash them due to the sheer power differences.

[Jtbrig7390]

Excuse me, but please do tell about all these games you can do that in. If you're going to be calling someone a liar, you should have some evidence to back it up. EVE and TERA have sanctioned RMT, but I can't think of another game where that's the case off the top of my head (GW2 will have it, but it's not out).

And considering the fact that the "best" gear in a MMO can RARELY be purchased with in-game currency, I fail to see how that's even relevant.

the gear u will be able to buy in the cash shop for guild wars 2 is cosmetic this has already been said many times.

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 07:46 PM ----------

The incarnates system is only available by paying a full on sub. This system grants extremely powerful abilities that will make you much stronger (and a higher level so more combat strength aswell as the new power)
The IO system is also something only available if you pay for it. Again this system makes you far stronger than someone who doesn't have access to it. It would be the equivalent of someone in BiS heroic gear vs someone with normal dungeon gear.

I would also consider any game (like SWToR) that gives content granting significant gear upgrades over a F2P player pay to win.

It would be like WoW going F2P and saying that whilst everyone can do arenas if you don't pay you can only earn honor points. Everyone with a Sub and earning conquest points will smash them due to the sheer power differences.

ok by ur standers wow is a pay to win cause with the free part u can only go to level 20 can't talk to anyone in trade chat and if u do the pvp u will barely get any decent gear.

a sub level 20 would beat a f2p level 20 so that must be pay to win right........

[edgecrusher]

The incarnates system is only available by paying a full on sub. This system grants extremely powerful abilities that will make you much stronger (and a higher level so more combat strength aswell as the new power)
The IO system is also something only available if you pay for it. Again this system makes you far stronger than someone who doesn't have access to it. It would be the equivalent of someone in BiS heroic gear vs someone with normal dungeon gear.

I would also consider any game (like SWToR) that gives content granting significant gear upgrades over a F2P player pay to win.

It would be like WoW going F2P and saying that whilst everyone can do arenas if you don't pay you can only earn honor points. Everyone with a Sub and earning conquest points will smash them due to the sheer power differences.

It gives you ACCESS to it through the game, it doesn't sell it directly through the cash shop. I can see where you're coming from, and you're absolutely right that someone with their incarnate powers unlocked is more powerful than someone who doesn't have them, but I don't see that falling under the traditional definition of the word. It's an incentive to get people to subscribe, which is what all freemium games want people to do.

If anything, I see it as a hazy gray area, but that being said I'll probably take CoH off my quick list.

[Ishau]

Just because you don't straight up buy gear doesn't mean it isn't pay to win.
If you have access to better gear just because you pay for it, eg with a sub, that someone who doesn't pay for a sub can never access then it is still Pay2Win. A player who pays for the game will have access to significant power gains than someone who doesn't.

[Jtbrig7390]

Just because you don't straight up buy gear doesn't mean it isn't pay to win.
If you have access to better gear just because you pay for it, eg with a sub, that someone who doesn't pay for a sub can never access then it is still Pay2Win. A player who pays for the game will have access to significant power gains than someone who doesn't.

OK and as i pointed out a min ago if that is the case and and true *and it is not people need to learn what Pay 2 Win means* then WOW is a pay to win cause a sub level 20 would mop the floor with a f2p level 20 because they can get other things the f2p can't.......and by ur standers all MMORPG"S is pay to win

[edgecrusher]

the gear u will be able to buy in the cash shop for guild wars 2 is cosmetic this has already been said many times.

I never said they sold actual gear through the cash shop. I said they have developer sanctioned RMT. You can buy and sell the gems that you purchase for real money, on a gold exchange. So you can realistically buy a ton of gems, sell them for a ton of gold, and have oodles of gold. The gold itself won't make you any more powerful than anyone else though.

[Zogarth]

I need to disagree with you saying that League of Legends is the right way to do things. You can still get stronger in that game compared to others, and you got an advantage if you got all champions vs someone who only has the free ones (You can pick a champ that is better for your teams setup). For me the only game of that genre that doing it right is Dota 2 in my opinion. In that game you can buy nothing that will give you any kind of advantage over others, and you have all champs from launch.

[Jtbrig7390]

I never said they sold actual gear through the cash shop. I said they have developer sanctioned RMT. You can buy and sell the gems that you purchase for real money, on a gold exchange. So you can realistically buy a ton of gems, sell them for a ton of gold, and have oodles of gold. The gold itself won't make you any more powerful than anyone else though.

Mybad took what u said the wrong way. that is true but it is no way P2w for the simple fact u can buy gems with gold and all the gems do is mostly cosmetic stuff like outfits. also u get more toon slots and xp bonus's

[Lora]

League of Legends is a good model but it's not an mmo.

[Ishau]

OK and as i pointed out a min ago if that is the case and and true *and it is not people need to learn what Pay 2 Win means* then WOW is a pay to win cause a sub level 20 would mop the floor with a f2p level 20 because they can get other things the f2p can't.......and by ur standers all MMORPG"S is pay to win

WoW doesn't offer a F2P model. WoW offers an extended free trial up to level 20. There is a large difference between a F2P model within a game and a Free Trial.

A PaytoWin model is where the only way to access the items that give the strongest power gains is to pay for it. If you are able to still access the same 'gear' as a free user but it take much longer then it isn't pay to win, but if you can never access the 'gear' then it is.

[Jtbrig7390]

League of Legends is a good model but it's not an mmo.

Its a MMORTS not a MMORPG *My Personally Opinion*

[edgecrusher]

I need to disagree with you saying that League of Legends is the right way to do things. You can still get stronger in that game compared to others, and you got an advantage if you got all champions vs someone who only has the free ones (You can pick a champ that is better for your teams setup). For me the only game of that genre that doing it right is Dota 2 in my opinion. In that game you can buy nothing that will give you any kind of advantage over others, and you have all champs from launch.

That's buying convenience though. My brother unlocked every champion, purchased multiple runepages, and purchased every rune he wanted (i.e. ignored the useless ones or the ones he didn't want for any of his builds). He did that without spending money on IP boosts or champions. Sure, it took him a long time, but he managed to do it. Someone who paid money may have accomplished this faster than him (in fact, the surely did), but they are no more powerful than him because of it.

WoW doesn't offer a F2P model. WoW offers an extended free trial up to level 20. There is a large difference between a F2P model within a game and a Free Trial.

A PaytoWin model is where the only way to access the items that give the strongest power gains is to pay for it. If you are able to still access the same 'gear' as a free user but it take much longer then it isn't pay to win, but if you can never access the 'gear' then it is.

To be fair, with the kind of restrictions that freemium games put on free users, you could call F2P accounts in freemium games little more than "extended free trials" that just happen to go to max level.

Mislabeling ect. primarily driven by our lack of widely agreed upon terminology for the recent increase in F2P monetization methods.

[Jtbrig7390]

WoW doesn't offer a F2P model. WoW offers an extended free trial up to level 20. There is a large difference between a F2P model within a game and a Free Trial.

A PaytoWin model is where the only way to access the items that give the strongest power gains is to pay for it. If you are able to still access the same 'gear' as a free user but it take much longer then it isn't pay to win, but if you can never access the 'gear' then it is.

Wow dose offer a f2p model and its limited to level 20 * can play this forever*. just like swtor will be limited to level 50 *around that time max level will be around 60* u can split hairs all u want but it dose. even still i was proving a point that people need to learn that Pay to Win really means and this isn't it.

[LazyJones]

P2W = Cash shop items are more powerful than drops.
P2C = Cash shop items are on par with drops (pay to compete)
F2P = No monthly fee. Can be P2W, P2C or neither (purely cosmetic cashshop items, like The Secret World).

[Totori]

League of Legends is a good model but it's not an mmo.

I wouldn't say so. It'd mean grinding and grinding and grinding and grinding or you pay cash. Which is not exactly appealing.