Is it just me or does Ele lacck any survivability?

[wynterlyn]

So recently, I've taken my Shammy off my self. I am currently level 62 and have not done much since level 20. I am currently running with a Ele/Resto OS build. I've not really given Heals much of a chance since I thought I would wait till level 70 and in PVP gear before I switch to Resto in BGs.

But I've been running as Ele as its pretty terrible when it comes to survivability. I mean alright you have your totems and all but outside Thunderstorm you don't really have anything. You get 2 shot by all melee when they get near you and there is no way to out run them. It probably is just me cause I am so use to playing my mage and having 2 roots and a blink every 15 sec.

I know its only level 62 and all but even then. Is this how Ele PVP is at level 85? I can rarely stay up long enough to do much damage. Only the last 2 WSG and AV where I literally tore the charts apart only cause people were really stupid to not focus me and I had people peeling of me.

WSG I simply hid in a bush and kept spamming. AV was the most fun I've had in a veryyy long time in this game. It was so close and I couldn't imagine it happening at level 60-64. We were practically losing for the first 15 mins because the Horde decided to turtle and they managed to get down Stonehearth bunker but we managed to cap the Iceblood GY and hold the lines at TP. Before that we managed to get down the East Tower and late in the game after trailing by over 100 points managed to get 2 towers (TP and IB) down. We simply camped TP and I just kept spamming Chain Lighting. I had about 40KBs and 2 deaths and 400K total damage. Even got the achievement for it.

I just find that once you are focused you don't really have much of a chance as ele. Rest of the time you can dish out really crazy damage.

[Pryyde]

RBGs player here- Ele isn't known for survivability, but if you can't control the Ele they'll tear your team a new one. Ele relies a lot on having team members peeling for you and being able to get away and around, from what I know.

But I'm not a Shaman, just someone who fights them often, so my word is worthless.

[wynterlyn]

RBGs player here- Ele isn't known for survivability, but if you can't control the Ele they'll tear your team a new one. Ele relies a lot on having team members peeling for you and being able to get away and around, from what I know.

But I'm not a Shaman, just someone who fights them often, so my word is worthless.

Well that was probably what I was thinking. Since whenever I was not focused I would literally 2/3 shot most of the other team with a guaranteed crit from Lava Burst and chain lightning. But those were on very rare occasions. I kept getting nailed down by Warriors and Paladins with their stuns and there was nothing I could do.

Like I said coming over from a mage, its just that I am so use to blinking and rooting that it will probably take me a while to get adjusted. I definitely know it was unbearable PVPing at level 20 on my shammy. One of the main reasons I didn't bother queueing for one for the last 40 levels.

[Stormykitten]

If you are coming from a mage you will feel like a 3rd rate mage except when you have those teammates to take off DK's, rogues, hunters and a few others, and as said above only a moonkin comes close to the dmg a good Ele can put out then.

Also in general, shaman without resilience just doesn't work well, it's the same as with warlock and a few others. You're just designed to be a bit more tankey due to lack of 'deny defenses', which means 1. resi problem and 2. You just solo worse than say rogue or mage, that has (multiple even) ways to completely deny damage/incoming cc's.

If this doesn't deter you, it can be insanely fun when you do get the support you need. When it happens, they should really run the "Battlecruiser operational" soundfile for added insult to the enemy BG team.

edit - Also I don't mean to sound like Ele is completely useless on its own, it's just a real struggle at times, and a few specs is just impossible to do anything against, provided same skill/gear.

[Socialhealer]

ele has virtually 0 survival indeed, if you think about a duel...its not really going to beat anyone lol, even a boomkin will trash an ele shaman simply due to more pvp friendly spells like bear form and the heal, cyclones instant cast hots etc.

but when it comes to melee, ANY melee who knows how to play will slaughter you flawlessly as elemental you are their bitch no amount of skill/gear will do anything, dks/rogues/ferals will never lose to you because they have enough cds to be impossible to kite at least long before you're dead. unless they have l2p issues then who cares thats like fighting someone 15 levels lower than you doesnt prove a thing. Thunderstorm simply has too long a cooldown vs melee's gap closers, also your hex/root (if they are not immune to it, which both rogues ferals and yes dks can be totally immune to.....)will be trinketed and by this time with their burst u'll be almost dead even with 5k resil.


on the other hand i play ele in random bgs and i probably get wrecking ball every single day and have done it 150? 250? times if it is not focused down asap it will destroy the other team.


only way to play ele is in a team which is why the class isnt a total joke in pvp since it does work in rbg, but yeh 3v3 ele shaman will be zerged asap and u'll lose the game instantly lol.

[Vukey]

The new ele pvp set bonus in PvP is already a step in the right direction.
It reduces the CD of Thunderstorm in half and if you glyph it, you'd reduce it to a 17,5 second CD.

[rnbwtrout]

its not that ele needs survivability. its that mages, locks and spriest need it more. that's why in MoP, blizzard gave mages alter time, spriests a 30sec vansh and locks a 2nd way to port. am i right, or am i right????

[Lassira]

Yes, it's a major reason as to why elemental is incredibly weak in arena - and why it wasn't in WoTLK(astral shift was ridiculously amazing fyi)
Shamans in general suffer from being trained start to finish in arena, resto was given SLT the other two specs were given ???? and don't appear in high rated arena for this reason.

I really struggle to think of any other spec that doesn't have any form of on-use damage reduction or damage immunity abilities - maybe a holy priest?

A much better scaling stoneclaw totem would have been really nice, in cataclysm gear it absorbs basically nothing.

[Protoman]

Yes, it's a major reason as to why elemental is incredibly weak in arena - and why it wasn't in WoTLK(astral shift was ridiculously amazing fyi)
Shamans in general suffer from being trained start to finish in arena, resto was given SLT the other two specs were given ???? and don't appear in high rated arena for this reason.

I really struggle to think of any other spec that doesn't have any form of on-use damage reduction or damage immunity abilities - maybe a holy priest?

A much better scaling stoneclaw totem would have been really nice, in cataclysm gear it absorbs basically nothing.

Enhance has Sham Rage on a 1min CD, plus instant heals, so thats decent defense. We weren't very competitive cause we lacked burst damage....no burst CD's and no abilities to time burst, everything including our LL had to be used on CD and always at the same rate......but yea even with SR we are pretty low on defenses and a solid defense CD would have been nice. Elem specifically is lowest of the Shaman though, enh has SR and resto has slt plus variety of heals.....elem got nothing cept mebbe stoneclaw, and they do have a glyph for def CD but its tied to elem mastery so their only def CD is tied to their main offensive CD.....horrible idea, whoever designed that didn't know what they were doing.

I agree that a scaling stoneclaw totem would have been perfect.....something like 15%-20% of your HP, or 15%HP + AP/SP scaling, and on a 30 sec CD and we would have had a nice defensive cd with an absorb on an accessible CD. Unfortunately they removed it totally and make Stone Bulwark which isn't really the same and pretty weak at 5HP for PVP plus shares a tier with Astral Shift, so most will be picking AS. Would have preferred our old SCT but glyph added and scaling, and some other defensive CD on that tier rather then bulwark.....like an immunity or something "Stone Wall". And Astral Shift is decent but could use some buffs, 6 sec is too short should be 8-10 sec and useable while stunned/silenced, maybe even under some other CC effects, or add a unique extra effect like "phased into astral plane, all spells/attacks miss you for first few sec when using this CD" or "removes all debuffs'.

[Endus]

I agree that a scaling stoneclaw totem would have been perfect.....something like 15%-20% of your HP, or 15%HP + AP/SP scaling, and on a 30 sec CD and we would have had a nice defensive cd with an absorb on an accessible CD.

That's Stone Bulwark Totem.

Unfortunately they removed it totally and make Stone Bulwark which isn't really the same and pretty weak at 5HP for PVP plus shares a tier with Astral Shift, so most will be picking AS.

It doesn't matter that the totem has 5hp; like with Stoneclaw Totem's glyph, SBT's shield remains for 10 seconds. They can't pop the totem and remove the shield, all that does is prevent the refreshing.

[Radux]

It doesn't matter that the totem has 5hp; like with Stoneclaw Totem's glyph, SBT's shield remains for 10 seconds. They can't pop the totem and remove the shield, all that does is prevent the refreshing.

It also guts a huge amount of the benefit of SBT.

Also, I really don't get people comparing SCT+Glyph with just SBT without ever accepting the 5% totem health glyph. I mean, I get that glyph spots are tighter anymore, but it's only fair to include it into the argument by showing what each gives by taking up a glyph spot.

Though, I really don't see why any spec would take SBT over NG or AS in PvP either way.

[Endus]

It also guts a huge amount of the benefit of SBT.

Also, I really don't get people comparing SCT+Glyph with just SBT without ever accepting the 5% totem health glyph. I mean, I get that glyph spots are tighter anymore, but it's only fair to include it into the argument by showing what each gives by taking up a glyph spot.

Though, I really don't see why any spec would take SBT over NG or AS in PvP either way.

I'm not entirely happy with SBT's implementation, but the point was, it's still way better than SCT has been.

[Radux]

I'm not entirely happy with SBT's implementation, but the point was, it's still way better than SCT has been.

If you make a fair comparison, definitely.

I'm actually just shocked they didn't make it a mega-supercharged version of SCT glyph on a 1 minute CD. Like... drop it and you gain a massive ass shield. I feel it would be way easier to balance, especially assuming it could be stomped quickly in PvP.

[Protoman]

It also guts a huge amount of the benefit of SBT.

Also, I really don't get people comparing SCT+Glyph with just SBT without ever accepting the 5% totem health glyph. I mean, I get that glyph spots are tighter anymore, but it's only fair to include it into the argument by showing what each gives by taking up a glyph spot.

Though, I really don't see why any spec would take SBT over NG or AS in PvP either way.

Yea basically, its designed to be effective over 30 sec but you only get 1 shield and it dies under 10 sec.....so totally lame. And you are right that most PVP players prob won't spec for it and rather go for AS if they want a reliable controlled defensive CD. But that just shows the problems with SBT and why it needs atleast 10%HP to be PVP viable.....why design a totem to tick for 30sec but give only 5HP....ensuring it will never live that long? Unless they don't want you to use it for PVP?

As for your point with the glyph.....it's not an equal comparison. In Cata, it is VERY EASY to glyph for SCT shield without really sacrificing any other important glyphs.....your major glyphs don't have much to pick from and for PVP the choices are pretty clear and limited....SCT, hex, and one other glyph of your choice.....like lightning shield or sham rage. In MoP, you have alot of glyph choices to pick from that are pretty useful, especially the majority of which designed specifically for PVP, so having to glyph for Totemic Vigor is a MUCH HARDER decision to make, that comes with sacrifices.

Also.....you really don't have much choice in glyphs for PVP atleast for Ele and Enhance......both need Imp GW, Ele needs unleash lightning and Enh will need Healing Storm....cause they are mandatory or just too good to pass up, whatever you wanna look at it as. That leaves one free glyph slot where I think totemic vigor is on the lower end of usefulness compared to the other choices left to pick from.....you can't get both CPT and Totemic Vigor for example unless Resto which totally sucks.

So yea, you can't assume SBT will have 5%HP like you can with SCT and the shield......plus 5%HP is pretty low and SBT will still die under 10 sec, just 2 GCD's now instead of 1 from what I have seen.

That's Stone Bulwark Totem.

It doesn't matter that the totem has 5hp; like with Stoneclaw Totem's glyph, SBT's shield remains for 10 seconds. They can't pop the totem and remove the shield, all that does is prevent the refreshing.

No....I meant SCT as a base tool not something on a talent tier where we gotta choose between a 1 min absorb or a 2min dmg reduction. Wanted a 30 sec cd scaling absorb shield where full effect comes in one shield PLUS one of 3 interesting talent choices from your defensive tier. Not to mention SCT also protected totems....an active tool to defend them which would have been useful with stuff like CPT or Stormlash that have their pathetic 5HP and die quick but give important buffs that you would want and try to keep alive long as possible.

And it does matter, if SBT is supposed to last for 30 sec to get the full benefit (which locks you out of other earth totems btw, something you didnt encounter with SCT or most classically designed totems), but with 5HP will die under 10 sec so you only get one shield thats a very lame CD......unless that first absorb is REALLY good its not worth getting. I have been suggesting some just like that by frontloading the initial absorb more, up to 60-70% of overall absorb plus just general buff to how much SBT absorbs anyways......but doesn't seem like it will and so not very effective. A talented defensive CD should not have 5HP, doesn't seem very balanced for group pvp play to me.

[Radux]

So yea, you can't assume SBT will have 5%HP like you can with SCT and the shield......plus 5%HP is pretty low and SBT will still die under 10 sec, just 2 GCD's now instead of 1 from what I have seen.

To be fair, Prime glyphs weren't interesting 'choice' at all. You chose the ones that gave you maximum dps. No alternatives.
Majors gave you interesting benefits, but sometimes at the loss of something (whether it be the glyph spot, duration, whatever). The problem was that there weren't a lot of Major's as a whole in Cata.

The glyph system in MoP is supposed to have a lot of 'oh man, I want to use this' kind of options. Outside of maybe GW, I'd say the glyph system is pretty spot on to where it's supposed to be.

In respect to 5% HP totems, I very well can make the comparison.

SCT (no glyph) = Totemic Vigore (glyph)
SCT (glyph) = SBT

It's a rough-ish comparison. But that's how it is.

It's an unfair comparison to say 'AMG SCT > SBT' when you let SCT have the glyph, but not SBT, since base effects for SCT/SBT do different things.

As for the overall benefit, yeah 5% may be low. I would be pretty damn satisfied if it were back at 10% (rather, 5% built in, with 5% added with glyph).

But saying that SCT health > SBT health is just flat wrong. SCT only has ~4-5k health on each totem. Totemic Vigor gives 5% health. That means at ~ilvl 378 you have ~175k health - meaning you have nearly ~9k health per totem. Double the benefit.

SBT numbers, assuming it stays up the whole time (I know it will get stomped - I'm getting to that), destroy the shield from the SCT Glyph.
The kicker is that the Up-Front Shield from SBT is way more than the SCT Glyph. 20 sec CD vs. 60 sec? Yes. I know.
The SBT shield is almost as much in the first shield, as 2 SCT Glyph shields. If you can get it to tick once, it's basically the same.

Again, I'm not saying that SBT doesn't have problems. It does.

I'm saying that a fair comparison needs to be made.

[Protoman]

To be fair, Prime glyphs weren't interesting 'choice' at all. You chose the ones that gave you maximum dps. No alternatives.
Majors gave you interesting benefits, but sometimes at the loss of something (whether it be the glyph spot, duration, whatever). The problem was that there weren't a lot of Major's as a whole in Cata.

The glyph system in MoP is supposed to have a lot of 'oh man, I want to use this' kind of options. Outside of maybe GW, I'd say the glyph system is pretty spot on to where it's supposed to be.

In respect to 5% HP totems, I very well can make the comparison.

SCT (no glyph) = Totemic Vigore (glyph)
SCT (glyph) = SBT

It's a rough-ish comparison. But that's how it is.

It's an unfair comparison to say 'AMG SCT > SBT' when you let SCT have the glyph, but not SBT, since base effects for SCT/SBT do different things.

As for the overall benefit, yeah 5% may be low. I would be pretty damn satisfied if it were back at 10% (rather, 5% built in, with 5% added with glyph).

But saying that SCT health > SBT health is just flat wrong. SCT only has ~4-5k health on each totem. Totemic Vigor gives 5% health. That means at ~ilvl 378 you have ~175k health - meaning you have nearly ~9k health per totem. Double the benefit.

SBT numbers, assuming it stays up the whole time (I know it will get stomped - I'm getting to that), destroy the shield from the SCT Glyph.
The kicker is that the Up-Front Shield from SBT is way more than the SCT Glyph. 20 sec CD vs. 60 sec? Yes. I know.
The SBT shield is almost as much in the first shield, as 2 SCT Glyph shields. If you can get it to tick once, it's basically the same.

Again, I'm not saying that SBT doesn't have problems. It does.

I'm saying that a fair comparison needs to be made.

I very much agree with 5% HP baseline and 5% thru the glyph.....should definetly happen as totems are all on longer CD's and so deserve more HP to counter the bigger penalty when killed. But SBT and Stormlash need atleast 10%HP simply cause of their long durations or CD.

And like I said earlier, you can't really compare SBT to SCT and assume SBT has the glyph like SCT does because the SCT glyph was much easier to use with little to no sacrifice, while Totemic Vigor is one of the least beneficial glyphs comparatively and if you used it would sacrifice alot more since there are many more good glyph choices in MoP.....Ele and Enh as I mentioned have 2 glyphs already decided for them, and one free slot.... even CPT glyph would be a better choice IMO then Totemic vigor cause 5%HP won't give enough protection to make up for what else you could get.....like sham rage dispel, shorter cd on hex, double purge, ect. You can assume SCT is glyphed cause everyone had it glyphed.....but not everyone will glyph for totem HP.....it would be safer to assume everyone will glyph for Imp GW then totemic vigor.

Also....I wasn't really comparing the actual HP both totems had, or how much their shield absorbed.....just the basic, fundamental ideas and mechanics behind them.....and if you assume that SCT was just improved instead of revamped into SBT then I think SCT would have been a much more effective CD, assuming the shield was made baseline and scaled......since with MoP numbers we would have had a 30sec CD shield that worked on us and our totems with whole effect on one shield so could twist out for another totem right away......SBT only shields you and total absorb and effect is spread out over multiple shields, first shield is only 40% of overall absorb.

We would have had this 30 sec CD, plus still able to choose a defensive talent thru our T1.

[Endus]

Yea basically, its designed to be effective over 30 sec but you only get 1 shield and it dies under 10 sec.....so totally lame.

That's only really an issue in PvP.

If you don't like that issue for PvP, there's two other talents. There was never any intent that all three talents would be equally strong for every spec in every type of gameplay. SBT having issues in PvP that Astral Shift doesn't does not mean SBT is broken or badly designed. It just means you probably shouldn't take it for PvP.

In MoP, you have alot of glyph choices to pick from that are pretty useful, especially the majority of which designed specifically for PVP, so having to glyph for Totemic Vigor is a MUCH HARDER decision to make, that comes with sacrifices.

Which is sort of how glyphs are supposed to work.

You should feel like you're sacrificing 2-3 important glyphs with whatever setup you run with.

No....I meant SCT as a base tool not something on a talent tier where we gotta choose between a 1 min absorb or a 2min dmg reduction.

I don't see how it matters whether it's a talent or a class or spec ability. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, except in that you have two other choices if it's a talent.

Wanted a 30 sec cd scaling absorb shield where full effect comes in one shield PLUS one of 3 interesting talent choices from your defensive tier.

Given the tools we've got for MoP, I can't see that Shaman have any need for this whatsoever.

And it does matter, if SBT is supposed to last for 30 sec to get the full benefit (which locks you out of other earth totems btw, something you didnt encounter with SCT or most classically designed totems), but with 5HP will die under 10 sec so you only get one shield thats a very lame CD......unless that first absorb is REALLY good its not worth getting.

It's significantly better than SCT's absorb, numerically. SCT's absorb only lasted 15 seconds, period, no chance of refreshing beyond dropping another totem. And yes, SCT locked you out of Earth totems. Sure, you could drop it and replace it with something else, and not lose the shield, but you can do the same with SBT if all you want is the initial shield.

A talented defensive CD should not have 5HP, doesn't seem very balanced for group pvp play to me.

And again, there is no desire or intent that all talents should be equally good for group PvP play. Just that there are niches where each has value. If you would always pick a talent regardless of what you were doing in-game, or never, THEN there's an issue with the talent. It's perfectly fine to say "if I raid, I'm taking A, but for PvP, definitely always B".

[Protoman]

That's only really an issue in PvP.

If you don't like that issue for PvP, there's two other talents. There was never any intent that all three talents would be equally strong for every spec in every type of gameplay. SBT having issues in PvP that Astral Shift doesn't does not mean SBT is broken or badly designed. It just means you probably shouldn't take it for PvP.

Certain talents have advantages in certain aspects of the game, but a talent shouldn't be designed to be pretty much useless for PVP....all cause its a totem and only 5HP. This is supposed to give you a reliable defensive CD, if you use up a valuable talent point it should be effective and with 5HP it can't be.

Which is sort of how glyphs are supposed to work.

You should feel like you're sacrificing 2-3 important glyphs with whatever setup you run with.

The glyphs should be of similar value.....but we have glyphs of "mandatory" value that eliminate choice because your are basically gimping yourself by not using them beyond deciding between purge or hex glyphs.....you can't give up unleash lightning or GW so you have only one glyph slot....that isn't right. Really we only need GW made baseline so the class has a baseline form of mobility....that leaves us with atleast 2 free glyph slots and actual ability to customize toward a certain playstyle.

So with GW baseline, all PVP ele will still glyph for unleash lightning but with 2 glyph slots they can be more CC oriented with CPT and hex, or totems with CPT and totemic vigor, or support with healing stream and cleanse, or offense with fire ele and thunderstorm ect.

REAL choices, REAL customization.....not forced into glyphs that you need to be competitive and stuck with only one slot.

I don't see how it matters whether it's a talent or a class or spec ability. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, except in that you have two other choices if it's a talent.

Given the tools we've got for MoP, I can't see that Shaman have any need for this whatsoever.

The difference is you have a minor defensive CD on a short CD PLUS still get 1/3 talented defenses from T1. You keep thinking SCT and SBT are the same thing but they aren't.....they are totally different abilities that only share a common theme of a shield coming from an earth totem. SCT was more accesible and like a PW:shield, while SBT is trying to be a major def CD but with 5HP and long duration that clash with other totems its just not well designed for PVP combat.

And we could def use a short CD absorb PLUS a real defensive CD like AS its 2min CD.....would have made us much more well rounded.

It's significantly better than SCT's absorb, numerically. SCT's absorb only lasted 15 seconds, period, no chance of refreshing beyond dropping another totem. And yes, SCT locked you out of Earth totems. Sure, you could drop it and replace it with something else, and not lose the shield, but you can do the same with SBT if all you want is the initial shield.

Like I said earlier, I am not looking at numbers but how each totem functioned...numbers can always be adjusted. SCT's absorb was all focused on one shield, and if it scaled like we all requested it would have been a great short CD absorb. The duration doesn't matter cause it could be used again in 20-30 sec. SBT's long duration doesn't matter either cause it dies in one hit.....even with glyph still under 10 sec and so only one shield. That one shield is also only 40%, so not even more then half of the overall absorb. SCT could be replaced right afterwards for the full effect or kept down to protect other totems, SBT needs to be kept down for 30 sec to get teh full effect with no buff to your totems.....but while SCT had some HP SBT has only 5HP so easy kill.

They aren't really comparable cause they took only a few basic concepts from SCT when they designed SBT, but really did a poor job of making it useful in PVP by making it so weak.....and even if it did have the HP to live longer, its designed in such a way that it clashes with other totems of that element so you would be locked out for 30 sec from tremor, earth elem, or ebind. If their intent is for SBT to only give you one shield for PVP then that first shield should be atleast 60% of overall absorb.

[Miniskip]

Having rolled an ele sham, and mainly focused in PvP i have to admit that ele does have a low survivability. When doing random BGs I have found that despite there being a team, you are still solo as a lot run each for their own. Have been thinking about re-rolling this one. Maybe it's just my perception of this class/role.

[Dethox]

It is not just you. I'm also benching my elemental shaman(from pvp) yet another expansion, just because there is no way to survive an imminent attack, though all other classes have an "oh shit button".