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  1. #1

    Mop trinket Imbalance?

    Not sure if I'm missing something but with current itemization PvP trinkets will be better than PvE trinkets for the first tier, and unless subsequent tiers have trinkets withs procs/stats that outweigh pure Base stat procs/stats then its going to continue that way. A trinket would have to have an insane amount of a secondary stat (crit/haste/mastery etc) to outweigh a main stat. I mean on beta right now you have PvP trinkets with 1000+ strength and a 3600 strength procs for 20 seconds, the other trinket has the same base strength but with on use strength of 5000, the PvE trinkets in comparison aren't even remotely close to this in terms of a dps, not sure if blizzard wants us to grind pvp every tier for the best pve trinkets as unless they change the procs/passive stats on them they will be BiS every tier pretty much as blizzard rarely does PvE trinkets with base stats being both static and a proc.

  2. #2
    yea and the pvp gear doesn't really lose out on secondary stats this time around. so unless i'm missing something about them being less effective in pve, pvp gear will also be very competitive.

  3. #3
    Would be quite the ironic twist if this turns out to be true after all the years of PVPers complaining about PVE gear.

    Just as a side commentary... I am still suprised how blizzard seems to struggle with balancing things in general. I mean of course when they completely overhaul talents and abilities and equipment things will not be perfect straight away, however when you see them "adjusting" things by 50-70% you have to wonder how they are so far out of balance in the first place. They claim to have all this internal testing and their own modeling for everything and with their years of experience making the game you would think they would have a better idea of how things will work.
    Last edited by Derpyhooves; 2012-08-03 at 03:04 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by hellboyy View Post
    yea and the pvp gear doesn't really lose out on secondary stats this time around. so unless i'm missing something about them being less effective in pve, pvp gear will also be very competitive.
    Yep since pvp power and resilience on beta don't seem to count as part of item budget technically pvp gear can compete against non set pieces, rings, trinkets and weps etc, I mean if they don't change things you could easily be in a scenario where 5+ pieces of your gear every tier are BiS pvp gear which I guess is one way to get people back into doing PvP but will likely annoy a lot of people to.

    I know that the PvP trinkets seem to max out at 483 item level from what I've seen but I could be wrong, theres 502+ I level PvE gear but still a crit/haste/mastery procs doesn't outweigh a pure stat proc even with the extra item levels
    Last edited by Opeth69; 2012-08-03 at 03:23 AM.

  5. #5
    OP is crying for nothing. You don't need to pvp at all to get those trinkets, you can convert 250 Valor points into 250 Conquest points. So, the trinkets will only cost 1650 Valor points, thats less than 2 weeks of valor point cap.
    PvP'ers wont have access to pve trinkets without raiding.
    Last edited by ducklino; 2012-08-03 at 03:39 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpyhooves View Post
    Would be quite the ironic twist if this turns out to be true after all the years of PVPers complaining about PVE gear.

    Just as a side commentary... I am still suprised how blizzard seems to struggle with balancing things in general. I mean of course when they completely overhaul talents and abilities and equipment things will not be perfect straight away, however when you see them "adjusting" things by 50-70% you have to wonder how they are so far out of balance in the first place. They claim to have all this internal testing and their own modeling for everything and with their years of experience making the game you would think they would have a better idea of how things will work.
    you'll find that when they reduce an ability's damage by 70% its not actually the entire ability, just a part of it.

    example. Recent patch note.

    Arcane shot's damage reduced by 50% going from 100% weapondamage + 5200 to 100% weapondamage + 2600.

    Its really just tweaking minor numbers. Inside the formulas and not quite as grave as they sound :P

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ducklino View Post
    OP is crying for nothing. You don't need to pvp at all to get those trinkets, you can convert 250 Valor points into 250 Conquest points. So, the trinkets will only cost 1650 Valor points, thats less than 2 weeks of valor point cap.
    PvP'ers wont have access to pve trinkets without raiding.
    Seriously? THAT'S what you got out of that?

    The pvp trinkets should NOT be BiS for every class and every spec. They are going to be unless the imbalance is changed. Trust me, I'm on the Beta, and it's not worth using anything else at the moment. The only trinkets better are found in Terrace of Endless Spring.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Seriously? THAT'S what you got out of that?

    The pvp trinkets should NOT be BiS for every class and every spec. They are going to be unless the imbalance is changed. Trust me, I'm on the Beta, and it's not worth using anything else at the moment. The only trinkets better are found in Terrace of Endless Spring.
    Thats a good thing, So we can finally have the best gear in arena's be the pvp gear.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ducklino View Post
    Thats a good thing, So we can finally have the best gear in arena's be the pvp gear.
    pvp gear will be more powerful in arena regardless because of pvp power.

  10. #10
    not to mention the hunter 4p with 20%!!!!!! focus regen for pve
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You're full of shit honey.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans FuxieDK's Avatar
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    I really hope, Blizzard gets around to making it impossible to use PvP gear in 5man and raids, because if this goes through, then they effective destroy PvE...
    Last edited by FuxieDK; 2012-08-03 at 10:25 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    I really hope, Blizzard gets around to making it i possible to use PvP gear in 5man and raids, because if this goes through, then they effective destroy PvE...
    Well, it is already partially there.

    PvP gear has a lower ilevel, because the PvP Power/Resilience stats have NO item budget value. So while the base stats might be almost equal, the ilevel is lower, making your ilevel naturally lower too.

    Example:

    Contender's Revenant Helm (Ilevel 450 blue PvP Helm, Crafted PvP Intro Set): http://mop.wowhead.com/item=82943
    3813 Armor
    +797 Strength
    +1195 Stamina
    Item Level 450
    Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 466.
    Equip: Increases your resilience rating by 318.
    Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 570.

    VERSUS

    Sightfinder Helm (Ilevel 463 Heroic 5-man drop Blue Helm): http://mop.wowhead.com/item=81274
    4002 Armor
    +659 Strength
    +1349 Stamina
    Meta Socket
    Yellow Socket
    Socket Bonus: +180 Mastery
    Item Level 463
    Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 357.
    Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 560.

    So, what do we see that is different...
    PvP Helm has +138 Strength, +10 Mastery, +109 Crit, and all that ilevel-valueless Resilience
    PvE Helm has +154 Stamina, +189 Armor, and the two Sockets...
    Meta Socket: Reverberating Primal Diamond - +216 Strength and +3% Crit Damage
    Yellow Socket: Fierce/Skillful/Inscribed Vermillion Onyx - +80 Strength and +160 Haste/Mastery/Critical Rating
    And the socket bonus of +180 Mastery kicks in then too...

    So, let's re-compare:
    PvE Helm now has +196 Strength, +154 Stamina, +189 Armor, +170 Mastery, +3% Crit Damage, and another +160 to Crit/Mastery/Haste (whichever you value more) to counter that Crit bonus on the PvP Helm...

    The PvP Helm now ONLY has the Resilience going for it. It is 100% inferior in every way, and is 13 ilevels lower. That is a whole tier in ilevel, weaker.

    On-topic: I sincerely hope they do fix the trinkets, and soon. It's one thing to make them a comparable option... it's another to blow PvE trinkets out of the water for every class barring Tanks perhaps, with PvP trinkets.
    Last edited by ZeroEdgeir; 2012-08-03 at 05:19 AM.

  13. #13
    Can you post the trinkets you're talking about and where they come from? Blizzard has been saying that although PVP power/def don't count towards the item budget, PVP gear will simply be lower ilvl than PVE gear. The idea is that you can use PVE gear in PVP and PVP gear in PVE it just won't be optimal. That is, it won't be a massive difference like today where PVE toons get 1-shot in PVP and PVP geared toons do garbage DPS in PVE. But you're still going to want to be full PVP for PVP because PVP power/def will offset the loss of ilvl, and of course PVE will want PVE gear because it's higher ilvl and PVP power/def is irrelevant to them.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaykay View Post
    Arcane shot's damage reduced by 50% going from 100% weapondamage + 5200 to 100% weapondamage + 2600.

    Its really just tweaking minor numbers. Inside the formulas and not quite as grave as they sound :P
    That's not reducing the damage by 50%. That's reducing the damage by a flat amount in all cases regardless of scaling (-2600).

    Reducing the damage by 50% would be 50% weapondamage + 2600.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir View Post
    Well, it is already partially there.

    PvP gear has a lower ilevel, because the PvP Power/Resilience stats have NO item budget value. So while the base stats might be almost equal, the ilevel is lower, making your ilevel naturally lower too.

    Example:

    Contender's Revenant Helm (Ilevel 450 blue PvP Helm, Crafted PvP Intro Set): http://mop.wowhead.com/item=82943
    3813 Armor
    +797 Strength
    +1195 Stamina
    Item Level 450
    Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 466.
    Equip: Increases your resilience rating by 318.
    Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 570.

    VERSUS

    Sightfinder Helm (Ilevel 463 Heroic 5-man drop Blue Helm): http://mop.wowhead.com/item=81274
    4002 Armor
    +659 Strength
    +1349 Stamina
    Meta Socket
    Yellow Socket
    Socket Bonus: +180 Mastery
    Item Level 463
    Equip: Increases your critical strike rating by 357.
    Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 560.

    So, what do we see that is different...
    PvP Helm has +138 Strength, +10 Mastery, +109 Crit, and all that ilevel-valueless Resilience
    PvE Helm has +154 Stamina, +189 Armor, and the two Sockets...
    Meta Socket: Reverberating Primal Diamond - +216 Strength and +3% Crit Damage
    Yellow Socket: Fierce/Skillful/Inscribed Vermillion Onyx - +80 Strength and +160 Haste/Mastery/Critical Rating
    And the socket bonus of +180 Mastery kicks in then too...

    So, let's re-compare:
    PvE Helm now has +196 Strength, +154 Stamina, +189 Armor, +170 Mastery, +3% Crit Damage, and another +160 to Crit/Mastery/Haste (whichever you value more) to counter that Crit bonus on the PvP Helm...

    The PvP Helm now ONLY has the Resilience going for it. It is 100% inferior in every way, and is 13 ilevels lower. That is a whole tier in ilevel, weaker.

    On-topic: I sincerely hope they do fix the trinkets, and soon. It's one thing to make them a comparable option... it's another to blow PvE trinkets out of the water for every class barring Tanks perhaps, with PvP trinkets.
    he talked about trinkets, not about the overall pvp vs pve gear. Only TRINKETS
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    For more overused and misunderstood terminology in MMOs, see: Pay to Win, Casual, Hardcore, Carrot on a Stick, Ganking, Trolling

  16. #16
    The Patient Pwndabear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowe View Post
    he talked about trinkets, not about the overall pvp vs pve gear. Only TRINKETS
    And he then talks about PvE GEAR becoming useless. Seriously...
    Trinkets from PvP can be useful in PvE - if it is not fixed in the beta I'm sure Blizzard will see the statistics of trinkets in use and then just fix something as soon as the game is out.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pwndabear View Post
    And he then talks about PvE GEAR becoming useless. Seriously...
    Trinkets from PvP can be useful in PvE - if it is not fixed in the beta I'm sure Blizzard will see the statistics of trinkets in use and then just fix something as soon as the game is out.
    He also did post the reason why the normal equipment (chest, legs & stuff) is better, cuz they don't seem to count pvp power as part of item budget. He said never pve gear becoming useless. He said it might get useless if they dont "fix" pvp power.

    Also he should not compare crafted items without socket to a 5er heroic item with socket. Its like comparing a heroic item vs a normalmode item.

    Now stop offtopic, its about pve trinkets vs pvp trinkets
    Last edited by Yindoo; 2012-08-03 at 07:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    For more overused and misunderstood terminology in MMOs, see: Pay to Win, Casual, Hardcore, Carrot on a Stick, Ganking, Trolling

  18. #18
    Simple example:
    http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87172
    This the highest Item level PvE trinket I could find for this tier
    http://mop.wowhead.com/item=84942
    http://mop.wowhead.com/item=84937
    These are the 2 highest PvP trinkets I could find but there could be even higher potentially, even with the 300 lower base strength than the 509 one (which is essentially a heroic hardmode end boss trinket) they are still considerable better as the procs/on use outweight the haste by a huge margin, unless a non base stat proc is massive over budgeted then the PvP trinkets will likely always come out on top. The other gear will be comparable but lower item level so will only be decent depending on itemization or your current progression level in PvE, also weapons are still missing an extra secondary stat (only have str, stam, res, crit), I don't mind PvP stuff being usable or even very good, but it's a little odd having trinkets that much better only from PvP as it kind of makes the entire PvE trinket design worthless atm.

  19. #19
    Changing the base stat to pvp power would remedy the situation, I think.

  20. #20
    I'm OK with PVP gear being decent for PVE, for once. It'll make gearing my Ret set easier, and it will allow me to skip the drudgery of LFR for offset stuff.

    As for the trinkets, why are people complaining? Do you REALLY want another Dragon Soul situation where you may NEVER have a decent trinket in your 2nd slot if you get really unlucky? My main has been doing Heroic DS for months and is still using 391 Scales Of Life in trinket slot #2 (Spine trinket as #1). My guild has also never seen a heroic Bone Link Fetish and only one Creche/Vial. Maybe this is Blizzard's response; do some PVP and you can fill out your second trinket slot easily. I'll take it, thanks.
    Last edited by Farabee; 2012-08-03 at 01:38 PM.

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