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  1. #601
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    So the number of players involved in the activity would define it as having endgame? That since the final dungeon in Orr is fought by 5 people rather than 10, that first guild to complete it is somehow diminished or less accomplished than some other game? That the massive battle fought by massive amounts of level capped players just to gain access to that dungeon is inconsequential?
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  2. #602
    Realistically the problem is the term endgame. GW(1/2) doesn't have raids. However, both feature activities and goals that are only available to max level characters. The problem is, people mistake raiding as the only form of endgame, since in most other MMOs of the last decade it has been.

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  3. #603
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    No one has said GW2 has raids....or power based gear progression.


    But I dont agree that such a narrow definition of endgame is accurate.

    I play wow, swotr, rift, eve and have dipped into other MMOs. My raiding is probably at most 10% of the activity I do at endgame. TSW has no raids yet also.

    In wow, hardcore raids are pretty niche, and the more casual LFG is jsut group content and you get that in GW2 in DEs in zones.
    Rift is a mix of many activities, and raiding is a small part
    TSW has no raids yet
    Swtor, again raids form a minority of endgame activity that players take part in.
    Eve...well not really comparable I suppose.

    YOU may class endgame as raids, but dont make the assumption you can speak for most, or even some, of the player base.
    I actually refer to anything at max lv as endgame, however most people do not do this, I've been through enough "Zomg GW2 has no endgame!!" threads to realize what most people that post here seem to think endgame is.
    Last edited by Durzlla; 2012-08-10 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Stupid phone and it's auto correct...
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  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Omg.... You guys are going in circles!!!

    Endgame, as pretty much EVERYONE thinks of it is raiding and gear progression at/after level cap. GW2 does NOT have this, neither does GW1, this is not up to debate, it's not there, saying it is will make you just look like an idiot, I'm sorry.

    However, GW1 and GW2 have PLENTY of content to do at max lv that isn't doable before that, does thi make it endgame? No. But it's there and you won't be bored, can we PLEASE move onto something else?
    Thank you for your opinion, i disagree. A lack of raids does not equal a lack of endgame, because endgame is more then just raiding even in WoW.

    I'd also contest the definition of Raiding. Its questionable at best, there is no arbitrary number that has to be met to qualify as a raid. Even WoW had dialed back their players in raid content over the years. From 40 players, to a measely 10. And in Swtor as little as 8 is already a "raid". From 40 in vanilla WoW (and possibly more in other MMOs) to just 8 in SWToR, there were dungeons that had a higher playercount then that in vanilla WoW.
    The only thing that seems to hold (as far as i can tell) is that raids require more players then a dungeon.

    Since Gw2 will also have elite-events where a boss has to be overcome by a group larger then 5man, is that not a raid? Being instanced or not isnt a criteria, WoW had/has world-bosses aswell.
    Not taking as much coordination? Well again, WoWs LFR tool is just a zergfest aswell, and that counts as a raid. Its also more then a single-group to take the encounter down, so thats a match.

  5. #605
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    She is making some pretty harsh statements against the developers (spinning/marketing an endgame that does not exist) without backing it up with facts. Everyone who has played the game has seen them deliver on everything they said we could expect.

    They even went so far as to create a video which outlines the endgame in GW2. She dismisses this with sweeping derogatory statements, yet has yet to list one item specifically to back up her opinion.
    It really IS a marketing thing though... They're Tryin to get people to stop being so narrow minded and see other things as endgame too, otherwise people will buy the game and then flood areas with their bitching and moaning about lack of endgame (which is true unless people start considering things other then raids as endgame too)

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-10 at 04:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    Thank you for your opinion, i disagree. A lack of raids does not equal a lack of endgame, because endgame is more then just raiding even in WoW.

    I'd also contest the definition of Raiding. Its questionable at best, there is no arbitrary number that has to be met to qualify as a raid. Even WoW had dialed back their players in raid content over the years. From 40 players, to a measely 10. And in Swtor as little as 8 is already a "raid". From 40 in vanilla WoW (and possibly more in other MMOs) to just 8 in SWToR, there were dungeons that had a higher playercount then that in vanilla WoW.
    The only thing that seems to hold (as far as i can tell) is that raids require more players then a dungeon.

    Since Gw2 will also have elite-events where a boss has to be overcome by a group larger then 5man, is that not a raid? Being instanced or not isnt a criteria, WoW had/has world-bosses aswell.
    Not taking as much coordination? Well again, WoWs LFR tool is just a zergfest aswell, and that counts as a raid. Its also more then a single-group to take the encounter down, so thats a match.
    2 things
    1) not my opinion please look through my post history of you think so

    2) read all the posts before commenting, because you just skipped over what I said MY opinion on endgame was...
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    There are end of game activities. Yes. There is no comparable endgame to popular MMOs. In the common usage, there is no endgame at all. And there never has been in any of the Guild Wars titles- going on 4 games + xpack now.
    This kind of implies that the only way to have an "endgame" is to be a DikuMUD-like, which is silly as not all MMOs have followed that format.

    Allow me to ask you a question, did DAoC have a PvE endgame? I believe it did, do you?

    Edit: And I'm not talking about that stupid Trials of Atlantis crap. Best DAoC period was during Shrouded Isles.
    Last edited by Willias; 2012-08-10 at 09:54 PM.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Are you saying those other games do not have endgame?
    I am saying those other games have bimodal endgames.

    That there are activities for maximum level players is true in many games. When players refer to endgame they are often not speaking on their level 80 quest, daily or dungeon, etc.

    Endgame popularly involves progression of power beyond what is allowed by the level cap. This is seen in popular games such as World of Warcraft, The Old Republic, Everquest, Age of Conan, Rift, Gran Fantasia, Perfect World, Rappelz, Runes of Magic, Everquest 2, blah blah blah.

    In the popular sense, endgame no more refers to anything you did at max level anymore than taking damage refers to tanking.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    So the number of players involved in the activity would define it as having endgame? That since the final dungeon in Orr is fought by 5 people rather than 10, that first guild to complete it is somehow diminished or less accomplished than some other game? That the massive battle fought by massive amounts of level capped players just to gain access to that dungeon is inconsequential?
    exactly.

    So WoW has no endgame because "raids" are for 72 people, or is it 54, or maybe 40, oh wait a sec now its 25......oh now its 10.....but for some reason 5 people is not acceptable. No matter than GW2 DEs will have potentially many many times the number in any WoW "raid".

  9. #609
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I am saying those other games have bimodal endgames.

    That there are activities for maximum level players is true in many games. When players refer to endgame they are often not speaking on their level 80 quest, daily or dungeon, etc.

    Endgame popularly involves progression of power beyond what is allowed by the level cap. This is seen in popular games such as World of Warcraft, The Old Republic, Everquest, Age of Conan, Rift, Gran Fantasia, Perfect World, Rappelz, Runes of Magic, Everquest 2, blah blah blah.

    In the popular sense, endgame no more refers to anything you did at max level anymore than taking damage refers to tanking.
    So you're talking about increased stats on gear.
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  10. #610
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    exactly.

    So WoW has no endgame because "raids" are for 72 people, or is it 54, or maybe 40, oh wait a sec now its 25......oh now its 10.....but for some reason 5 people is not acceptable. No matter than GW2 DEs will have potentially many many times the number in any WoW "raid".
    Lolz such a noob!! Evry1 nos dat DEs r just Zerg fests!! Not to mention dey not instancd or tight nit!!

    Yeah on a serious note, I was never a fan of finding some ungodly number of people for "hard" content... Thought of it like taking 40 people to some dudes house to beat the crap out of him and steal his shit instead of 5 xD. Who else is excited and scared to see the DEs in Orr? *tryin to change subject*
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post

    Endgame popularly involves progression of power beyond what is allowed by the level cap. This is seen in popular games such as World of Warcraft, The Old Republic, Everquest, Age of Conan, Rift, Gran Fantasia, Perfect World, Rappelz, Runes of Magic, Everquest 2, blah blah blah.

    In the popular sense, endgame no more refers to anything you did at max level anymore than taking damage refers to tanking.
    Or maybe those were the only available options. Quite a lot of players dont actually take part in Raids. or if they do dont do all levels of them. Leading me to question whether your position is correct.

    Now compare it to the popularity of transmog runs for purely cosmetic gear, or the wardrobe tab in Rift, or the Orange customisable gear in Swtor....seams people do like "progression" even when its not based on increases in power.

    Endgame can include raids, but take for example rift, what of the following is and is not endgame:
    raids
    5mans
    IA
    Raid rifts
    Expert rifts
    normal rifts
    PVP rifts
    Crafting rifts
    PVP dailies
    Daily quests
    Zone invasions
    Onslaughts
    Instanced PVP
    Conquest
    I'd term that all as endgame.

    The problem is that WoW has had such a narrow focus on raids that some people seam to think thats all endgame is. Even Bliz dont subscribe to this opinion, thats why they are diversifying the endgame in Mop< they have realised how outdated and unrealistic this position is.

    btw, your tanking comment is pretty silly, and adds nothing to the discussion. It does not even make sense in the context of the discussion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-10 at 10:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Lolz such a noob!! Evry1 nos dat DEs r just Zerg fests!! Not to mention dey not instancd or tight nit!!

    Yeah on a serious note, I was never a fan of finding some ungodly number of people for "hard" content... Thought of it like taking 40 people to some dudes house to beat the crap out of him and steal his shit instead of 5 xD. Who else is excited and scared to see the DEs in Orr? *tryin to change subject*
    I am very excited to see DEs in Orr. The devs hinted that the Fire elemental Asura boss, whilst op for a starting zone, was not of a difficulty that would not be seen later in the game. If thats true, the later game DEs promise to be brutal.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    2 things
    1) not my opinion please look through my post history of you think so

    2) read all the posts before commenting, because you just skipped over what I said MY opinion on endgame was...
    1) It is subjective, so its an opinion. You're here presenting it.

    2) Why? You say "pretty much everyone" thinks raiding = endgame, and several people have already responded to that saying "hold on, i disagree with that".

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Endgame popularly involves progression of power beyond what is allowed by the level cap.
    And technically Gw2 has that aswell. You dont get the lv80 gear for free, you have to do something for it. Seems like a rather simplistic view on what endgame is.
    Last edited by terrahero; 2012-08-10 at 09:55 PM.

  13. #613
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Who else is excited and scared to see the DEs in Orr?
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  14. #614
    jeez, what a silly argument, really.
    Talking about raiding and the number of people it should or must hold.

    END GAME - it says it all, end of the game. it means the activitys you can do at the END of the GAME, and in a mmo thats at max level.

    So it comes down, What is there to do PVE wise at MAX level to keep you going.

    And the answer to that: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...tiated-READ-ME!

    // SHOOT i was to soon, missed this bit:

    /thread.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    So you're talking about increased stats on gear.
    Or the progression of your character's power. Some games did it with endless skill ranks UO or Runescape for example. AC as well, iirc.

    In the very popular games of World of Warcraft and Everquest it was indeed gear stats. Though in the case of the latter, there were other factors that were an increase beyond the level limitation; AA, reputation, access and so on.

    Somewhere in this it seems the argument is being eschewed toward one of style. So let me be clear, I am not saying that is the only viable model of game design.

    What I am saying is that most common usage of the term does refer to that style. Not merely 'stuff one does at max level XX', but how one progresses beyond that limitation.

    Guild Wars 1 & 2 have no endgame in the popular sense.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoef View Post
    jeez, what a silly argument, really.
    Talking about raiding and the number of people it should or must hold.

    END GAME - it says it all, end of the game. it means the activitys you can do at the END of the GAME, and in a mmo thats at max level.

    So it comes down, What is there to do PVE wise at MAX level to keep you going.

    And the answer to that: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...tiated-READ-ME!

    // SHOOT i was to soon, missed this bit:

    /thread.
    I like how i said this several posts ago.

  17. #617
    If you're going to base the definition of a word based on most common usage/most popular usage, then there are going to be many things that other MMOs (and other games) will not have if they do not copy the EverQuest/WoW formula.

    Endgame is simply what content/what happens at the end of a game. This definition doesn't just apply to popular MMOs, but to most video games.

    Raiding in WoW is "endgame content" because the content takes place *at the end of the game*. "Endgame progression" would be a better term for gear progression that happens during max level raiding or pvp in WoW.

    In which case, no Guild Wars 2 does not have "endgame progression" because once a character acquires level 80 gear, there is no longer any way to improve the character. The same could be said about Guild Wars 1, as there is no gear progression past level 20.

    However, I would say that Guild Wars 1 has a massive "endgame" because there is much content that cannot be completed or is extremely difficult to complete with a character not at maximum level. Edit: Furthermore, there is much content in Guild Wars 1 that requires the completion of earlier content to have access to later content. The content that takes place at the end of a campaign is endgame content. Perhaps content that takes place beyond that (for example the Underworld, the Fissure of Woe, etc) could be considered postgame.
    Last edited by Willias; 2012-08-10 at 10:30 PM.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    Or maybe those were the only available options. Quite a lot of players dont actually take part in Raids. or if they do dont do all levels of them. Leading me to question whether your position is correct.
    Not even sure why this matters at all. I am not talking about raids specifically. Only that end game involved power advancement.

    Really not sure why minority or majority player base participating in raids has a damn to do with that either. You seem to be speaking to an argument that is mostly imaginary.

    Endgame can include raids, but take for example rift, what of the following is and is not endgame:
    Rift is a horrible example. Because all that DOES progress you beyond the level cap limitation. From Xp to dungeons to raids to IAs. Everything in Rift directly rewards with power increases. Like everything.

    So yes, that is a popular endgame. Progression beyond the level cap.

    btw, your tanking comment is pretty silly, and adds nothing to the discussion. It does not even make sense in the context of the discussion.
    Disagree. As a comparison between frequent, poorly made arguments concerning the differing style of GW2; it's both a common and inaccurate point. Just as Competitive PVE and the like are often brought up.

    There is no role trinity, competitive PVE structure or endgame in the common/popular sense in Guild Wars 2.

    Marketing regurgitation is pretty loathsome impulse among game fans. I was speaking directly to that type of argument bred of fanaticism.

  19. #619
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    Or maybe those were the only available options. Quite a lot of players dont actually take part in Raids. or if they do dont do all levels of them. Leading me to question whether your position is correct.

    Now compare it to the popularity of transmog runs for purely cosmetic gear, or the wardrobe tab in Rift, or the Orange customisable gear in Swtor....seams people do like "progression" even when its not based on increases in power.

    Endgame can include raids, but take for example rift, what of the following is and is not endgame:
    raids
    5mans
    IA
    Raid rifts
    Expert rifts
    normal rifts
    PVP rifts
    Crafting rifts
    PVP dailies
    Daily quests
    Zone invasions
    Onslaughts
    Instanced PVP
    Conquest
    I'd term that all as endgame.

    The problem is that WoW has had such a narrow focus on raids that some people seam to think thats all endgame is. Even Bliz dont subscribe to this opinion, thats why they are diversifying the endgame in Mop< they have realised how outdated and unrealistic this position is.

    btw, your tanking comment is pretty silly, and adds nothing to the discussion. It does not even make sense in the context of the discussion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-10 at 10:52 PM ----------



    I am very excited to see DEs in Orr. The devs hinted that the Fire elemental Asura boss, whilst op for a starting zone, was not of a difficulty that would not be seen later in the game. If thats true, the later game DEs promise to be brutal.
    This may be me, but I consider all the things listed that don't have "daily" in them end game.

    As for that elemental he scared me... And the fact they said he was on the easier level of Orr REALLY scares me.... However, it does make me REALLY REALLY wanna go see some of the stuff in Orr, and I can see u being pushed to the beaches quite often if he's actually "easy"
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  20. #620
    They should rename this site "Semantics Champion" because it seems like most of these threads simply turn into an argument about the appropriate use of a word.

    Just to clearly define the term for posts from here on out: "Endgame" is what it is called when you enter the second stage of progression in most modern MMOs. The first stage of progression is leveling. The second stage comes from gear acquisition, points acquisition, or whatever it is you have to do to keep developing your character at the level cap.

    GW2 doesn't have "Endgame" but that shouldn't be confused with "There's nothing to do at 80". GW2 doesn't have that second stage of character progression, the entire game is built around that first stage, and the first stage never ends.

    So everyone is right. There is no "Endgame" but there is plenty to do at max level.

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