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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanie View Post
    That would be a misconception. Lots of raiders play more than just WoW. We tend to either play a non-MMO or a more casual MMO on the side (not counting those that actively PvP a lot). Even for raiders, there's more to gaming than just progression raiding.

    Why? Because, honestly, once you're raid-geared, WoW has fairly little to offer you that's replayable. As a raider, there's only a fairly narrow sliver of content that is challenging at any given point in time; once you've mastered something, you can generally beat it fairly reliably. Which is generally the segment of the current raid you're working on. Dungeon content will be horribly outgeared after a couple of weeks, and unless you're into PvP or really get excited about doing daily quests or crafting, that's your endgame. You can stretch it out a bit if you're creative (by, say, achievement runs or 5-manning Bastion of Twilight). But in practice, a lot of raiders branch out into other games after the first couple of months of an expansion/tier (and especially once you're done with a tier, either because you've killed the final boss or you don't think you can realistically progress any further).

    Guild Wars 2 actually looks fairly good for this, because (like other games with sidekicking/mentoring mechanics) it does not require everybody to be max level and play the game actively in order to play together; the lack of a subscription fee makes that even better for a game that you may sometimes not touch for a month or two. And the game mechanics are sufficiently different from WoW/Rift to make playing it an actual change of pace.
    So much this. The only reason I may play MoP is because it has "competitive PvE" (raids, heroic raids). And also most of my gaming friends are not interested in GW2 (mostly because they know only wow and since MoP is released 1 month after, they wont bother try gw) so I'm probably going to play mop. (I say probably because in this situation I'm not very happy to pay 15$ a month for only raids )
    But thats only for the raiding, for everything else there is gw2.

  2. #682
    I know all of you defend GW 2 like your life depends on it, There was many SWTOR rabid fanboys too, and now they are turned to haters after a while.
    Please answer me this: - what I'm going to do when I already finish every heart, find every vista, jumping puzzle, complete every DE. Yes there are dungeons that will reward gear - ok lets say i did it all, got all the armors and even legendary weapons, what next? please don't say it will be events in Orr, without actuall reward noone will be doing this after a month or 2, if you dont believe me ask any ex Rift player about rifts, it was fun at start but soon everybody hated it. Land was devasteded by invading hordes of monster but players didnt even care, there was no significant reward for closing them down.

    I'm not saying DE, exploring, jumping puzzles, hearts, dungeons wont be fun. I'm sure content will last for quite long time, but eventually it will all end and die, and there's nothing on the horizon. Thats the problem, in other mmos with raids players know there soon will be new raid, new gear to get, achevements to complete, and GW2 lacks a goal.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I'm not saying DE, exploring, jumping puzzles, hearts, dungeons wont be fun. I'm sure content will last for quite long time, but eventually it will all end and die, and there's nothing on the horizon. Thats the problem, in other mmos with raids players know there soon will be new raid, new gear to get, achevements to complete, and GW2 lacks a goal.
    They add new DE's, dungeons, etc. per patches (and expansions). By the way, the idea of collecting every dungeon set and legendary weapon...if you can do that in a timely manner and before they add/change stuff, props to you. You're basically underestimating ANet in every sense of the word, whereas you're biasing toward a new raid that comes out 9+ months later...GW2 will continue to offer new dungeons, DE's, etc., as they have said. Don't know where you're getting your information from...

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I know all of you defend GW 2 like your life depends on it, There was many SWTOR rabid fanboys too, and now they are turned to haters after a while.
    Please answer me this: - what I'm going to do when I already finish every heart, find every vista, jumping puzzle, complete every DE. Yes there are dungeons that will reward gear - ok lets say i did it all, got all the armors and even legendary weapons, what next? please don't say it will be events in Orr, without actuall reward noone will be doing this after a month or 2, if you dont believe me ask any ex Rift player about rifts, it was fun at start but soon everybody hated it. Land was devasteded by invading hordes of monster but players didnt even care, there was no significant reward for closing them down.

    I'm not saying DE, exploring, jumping puzzles, hearts, dungeons wont be fun. I'm sure content will last for quite long time, but eventually it will all end and die, and there's nothing on the horizon. Thats the problem, in other mmos with raids players know there soon will be new raid, new gear to get, achevements to complete, and GW2 lacks a goal.
    When you finish absolutely everything you get a cookie and can go pvp.

    What do you do in other games when you did everything there is to do ?

    This is not a GW2 problem, when you have finished the last raid in wow there is nothing to do either.
    And then you have an expansion. WoW gives you a small raid every 6months that you farm for 6months straight, gw2 will give you an expansion every year or so if gw1 is to be trusted. They also stated they'll add stuff in patches.

    You can also play a second character ? The DE system and autolevel in pvp make it so, imo, that making alts isn't a chore compared to traditional mmos.

    I mean no game will feed you endless content.
    Last edited by rezoacken; 2012-08-11 at 08:36 PM.

  5. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I know all of you defend GW 2 like your life depends on it, There was many SWTOR rabid fanboys too, and now they are turned to haters after a while.
    Please answer me this: - what I'm going to do when I already finish every heart, find every vista, jumping puzzle, complete every DE. Yes there are dungeons that will reward gear - ok lets say i did it all, got all the armors and even legendary weapons, what next? please don't say it will be events in Orr, without actuall reward noone will be doing this after a month or 2, if you dont believe me ask any ex Rift player about rifts, it was fun at start but soon everybody hated it. Land was devasteded by invading hordes of monster but players didnt even care, there was no significant reward for closing them down.

    I'm not saying DE, exploring, jumping puzzles, hearts, dungeons wont be fun. I'm sure content will last for quite long time, but eventually it will all end and die, and there's nothing on the horizon. Thats the problem, in other mmos with raids players know there soon will be new raid, new gear to get, achevements to complete, and GW2 lacks a goal.

    Patches and Expacs, just like other MMOs with raids.
    Anet has a strong history of providing content, they've committed to having a live team doing nothing but that.

    I'm not a rabid anything, I just know a good thing when I see it
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
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  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    There's plenty of objective proof that the graphical quality of GW2 is better than WoW. You can't argue the aesthetics of it, sure, but objectively speaking, GW2 graphical quality is superior.
    Sounds like fanboi. Why do you guys compare games... ?

    yeah GW2 has better graphics.... or at least ''models'' they look less blocky... but for the textures... no. pretty much the same.

    but yeah, graphics doesnt fill up for the lack of polishing . Yeah, its a beta and all but its pretty much what itll be at launch. i loved release WoW better...

    Tho, not saying GW2 is bad but stop comparing.
    Seems like every WoW clones fanbois needs to rage or be ''better-than-WoW-wannabe''.
    Fact is, WoW pretty much took a lot of good idea in their game and other mmos just feels like you have to start from 0 again.

    Remember SWTOR ? It was supposed to kill WoW *giggles*. oh what ? its going F2P? WHAT DO?!

    See what i did there? i COMPARE games .

    Point is.... you cant argue which game is better cuz we all have different styles.
    Last edited by mic129; 2012-08-11 at 08:27 PM.

  7. #687
    i found the game lacking, and i primarily do PvE
    "Have you had the dream again? A black goat with seven eyes that watches from the outside."

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by rezoacken View Post
    When you finish absolutely everything you get a cookie and can go pvp.

    What do you do in other games when you did everything there is to do ?

    This is not a GW2 problem, when you have finished the last raid in wow there is nothing to do either.
    And then you have an expansion. WoW gives you a small raid every 6months, gw2 will give you an expansion every year or so if gw1 is to be trusted. They also stated they'll add stuff as things come by.

    You can also play a second character ? The DE system and autolevel in pvp make it so imo, that making alts isn't a chore compared to traditional mmos.

    First of all we are talking about PvE here.
    and second - the thing about WoW - yes thats exactly a problem, I already stopped subbing WoW for months between patches, because lack of content, and I really dont wont to wait 1 year for new xpack in GW2, jsut to get new armor that arent even better from my vurrent one, just for different look.

    I'm really not saying this because I want to bash the game, actually it's complete opposite I want it to be very succesfull, I already pre-purchased and can't wait to play. But lack of progress and sort of direction (raids in other games) worries me. Judging from their philosophy they cant add harder dungeons and DE's, becasue people wouldnt bother anymore with old ones, so I think it will all feel very flat after a while, no gear progress, no increase in power, sounds very boring imo.

    I really hope they will release new content at much faster rate then this 1 year you mentioned, or this game will die very fast.
    Last edited by nemro82; 2012-08-11 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by akamurdoch View Post
    i found the game lacking, and i primarily do PvE
    I primarily do PvE also, found it challenging when I wanted challenge, an abundant amount of content, and tons of people to do it with. It's great

    <~~~~~Retired my legendary HC warlock around 3 mos ago.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-11 at 01:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I really hope they will release new content at much faster rate then this 1 year you mentioned, or this game will die very fast.
    1 yr for expacs, patches will be much more frequent.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
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  10. #690
    Judging from their philosophy they cant add harder dungeons and DE's, becasue people wouldnt bother anymore with old ones, so I think it will all feel very flat after a while, no gear progress, no increase in power, sounds very boring imo.
    Just to point something out real quick;

    Anet did release harder dungeons in the first Guild Wars post-release. The series never had infinite scaling, vertical power increases or a gear treadmill. Level cap was never increased either.

    People did "bother" to run nearly ALL of the content in the game.

    There is nothing to suggest Anet are unable to introduce higher difficulty DEs, dungeons and so on in GW2. As in the last 4 games made in the franchise.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    First of all we are talking about PvE here.
    and second - the thing about WoW - yes thats exactly a problem, I already stopped subbing WoW for months between patches, because lack of content, and I really dont wont to wait 1 year for new xpack in GW2, jsut to get new armor that arent even better from my vurrent one, just for different look.
    You may be looking for something that just doesn't exist then. There is no game that feed you endless pve content. You may hope that they release things fast enough for you to always have something new to do/see but if you are a big player and spend a lot of hours that's not realistic unless they just add big grinds to the game.

    I mean GW2 looks huge and with a shitload of things to complete in pve if you really want to do everything and get legendaries and dungeons etc, but if that is the only thing you will do then yes probably after some time you will reach an "end".

    I really hope they will release new content at much faster rate then this 1 year you mentioned, or this game will die very fast.
    Multiple reasons why this may not be the case:
    -No subscriptions, stopping playing or playing casually is okay with GW2. In say wow, when you dont feel like playing much you just stop your subscription and cannot play anymore. If you want to return only for a couple hours you pay full price.
    -PvP is a huge part of the game and many ppl are in for that. sPvP is starting to get a very competitive scene and WvW will keep people interested the same way it did in DaoC and Alterac Valley in its early days. You not wanting PvP is okay but you should give a try, that's a big portion of the game.
    -There really is a lot of stuff to do, not everyone will have finished in 2 months.
    -There will be patches between xpacs. How big is still in question, however but ppl say gw1 was fine on this side.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    First of all we are talking about PvE here.
    and second - the thing about WoW - yes thats exactly a problem, I already stopped subbing WoW for months between patches, because lack of content, and I really dont wont to wait 1 year for new xpack in GW2, jsut to get new armor that arent even better from my vurrent one, just for different look.

    I'm really not saying this because I want to bash the game, actually it's complete opposite I want it to be very succesfull, I already pre-purchased and can't wait to play. But lack of progress and sort of direction (raids in other games) worries me. Judging from their philosophy they cant add harder dungeons and DE's, becasue people wouldnt bother anymore with old ones, so I think it will all feel very flat after a while, no gear progress, no increase in power, sounds very boring imo.

    I really hope they will release new content at much faster rate then this 1 year you mentioned, or this game will die very fast.
    Are you saying that new raids in WoW are more difficult than the previous one? In a perfect world raids are at the same level of difficulty at release.When a raid is released, it is at certain difficulty and during the course of its progression, it becomes easier (or mathematically possible) with gear. Once a new tier comes out, it is scaled to a higher difficulty to accommodate for the more powerful gear obtained from the previous raid. With guild wars 2, new dungeons and DEs will not be easier or more difficulty than the last, they will be equally difficult. What is wrong with that? This way, your success or failure is not controlled by gear, but your skill. Gear Progression is just a glorified gating system.

  13. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    First of all we are talking about PvE here.
    and second - the thing about WoW - yes thats exactly a problem, I already stopped subbing WoW for months between patches, because lack of content, and I really dont wont to wait 1 year for new xpack in GW2, jsut to get new armor that arent even better from my vurrent one, just for different look.

    I'm really not saying this because I want to bash the game, actually it's complete opposite I want it to be very succesfull, I already pre-purchased and can't wait to play. But lack of progress and sort of direction (raids in other games) worries me. Judging from their philosophy they cant add harder dungeons and DE's, becasue people wouldnt bother anymore with old ones, so I think it will all feel very flat after a while, no gear progress, no increase in power, sounds very boring imo.

    I really hope they will release new content at much faster rate then this 1 year you mentioned, or this game will die very fast.
    You're operating under the assumption that larger health pools and higher damage/healing output/intake results in harder difficulty. WoW has rather splendidly proved that this is not the case. Ulduar being harder than ToC, just as one small example.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

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  14. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    Please answer me this: - what I'm going to do when I already finish every heart, find every vista, jumping puzzle, complete every DE. Yes there are dungeons that will reward gear - ok lets say i did it all, got all the armors and even legendary weapons, what next?
    So you're saying - when you do absolutely all of the content that interests you, what next?

    Do what you do with every other game I suppose?

    Perhaps a better question you should be asking yourself is - "are there enough hours of enjoyable content in this game to make the box price worth it"

    If you think you'll get more hours of enjoyable content for the money from another game, then buy the other game...

  15. #695
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    You'll never complete every DE, nor will you ever know if you have or not (there's no in-game measure of how many DEs you've done out of the total in existence), since they're constantly going to be adding more DEs to every zone, without ever even telling you if they have.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  16. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I know all of you defend GW 2 like your life depends on it, There was many SWTOR rabid fanboys too, and now they are turned to haters after a while.
    Please answer me this: - what I'm going to do when I already finish every heart, find every vista, jumping puzzle, complete every DE. Yes there are dungeons that will reward gear - ok lets say i did it all, got all the armors and even legendary weapons, what next? please don't say it will be events in Orr, without actuall reward noone will be doing this after a month or 2, if you dont believe me ask any ex Rift player about rifts, it was fun at start but soon everybody hated it. Land was devasteded by invading hordes of monster but players didnt even care, there was no significant reward for closing them down.

    I'm not saying DE, exploring, jumping puzzles, hearts, dungeons wont be fun. I'm sure content will last for quite long time, but eventually it will all end and die, and there's nothing on the horizon. Thats the problem, in other mmos with raids players know there soon will be new raid, new gear to get, achevements to complete, and GW2 lacks a goal.


    What do you do in wow or similar raid based game when you have finished the raid and have another 7months of no new content?


    You can always finish everything...but GW2 there is a lot more to finish! Also, for me, DEs dont get old that quickly, becuase I can run different ones all the time. In Raid based games, its just one raid (occasionally more per teir) so you have no other option for current content. The way GW2 works, the entire game is current content, if I get bored of one zone, I can move to another, in fact hte game encourages me to move round with the way the daily, weekly and monthly achvs are set up.

    There is just so much more options and variety than most MMOs, the only current one that is comparable is Rift with its multiple path endgame and Dynamic zone events.

    As for whats on the horizon.....well they have a live team who will be adding more DEs in every zone, so the current ones play less and the new ones get into the pool of available events. Plus Anet are likely to put out expansions on a 1 to 1.5 yearly basis, rather than 2 or 3 years apart like many MMOs. I'm pretty sure that Anet will give Trion a run for their money when it comes to speed of content delivery, we'll have to wait and see, but having heard the devs speak about their post launch plans, I'm more than encouraged.



    Oh and one point I;m not sure has been raised or not. In WoW type games with vertical progression, all raids on release are the same difficulty because they have to pitch it at the same level relative to the gear players will have, because their whole business model is based on players consuming content. In GW2 type horizontal progression that is not the case. They can make, easy, medium and hard content, with no inclination to nerf it as its not vital you complete it all. In WoW type games it is, in order to see their next level of content, you have to have compelted the previous ones so they get nerfed to allow people to catch up.
    In GW2 it does not matter, you dont change in absolute power, so whats hard at endgame now, will be hard forever. they can just add in new easy, medium and hard content in addition without worrying about people not having done the existing hard content.

    Vertical progression means that content gets made obselete and nerfed. horizontal progression means it can be hard and stay hard.
    Last edited by tlacoatl; 2012-08-11 at 09:36 PM.

  17. #697
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    I love how so many people are all "Hey look what happened to SWTOR with rabid fanboysim and sudden failure" and then they immediately forget what happened with Rift. Extreme failures, popularity-wise, are extremely rare.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  18. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I love how so many people are all "Hey look what happened to SWTOR with rabid fanboysim and sudden failure" and then they immediately forget what happened with Rift. Extreme failures, popularity-wise, are extremely rare.
    The thing is Swtor did not fail not really. It did not live up to expectations, but if their break even is 500k, and they are aparanly above that, then actually it suceeded, just not the level they hoped for. 500K-1mil subs is pretty good for MMOs. Eve has been coasting along for years with 350K. No one knows Rift sub numbers but I'd say its in the region of Swtor's level or slightly below, and yet its a cracking good game that the devs are obviously happy to keep pushing content out for and is performing really well by the profits they posted and the inwards investmetn they received.

    People forget that wow level subs are exceptional, and not the norm. As long as an MMO is making money and being updated, then thats fine with me. And there are games out there that are still going that were released a long time before WoW was ever conceived.

  19. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I know all of you defend GW 2 like your life depends on it, There was many SWTOR rabid fanboys too, and now they are turned to haters after a while.
    Actually, no. I like WoW, and Rift, and Guild Wars 2, and SW:TOR, and City of Heroes, and a lot of other games. I don't expect an MMO to do be specifically tailored to my needs. I look for things that I can enjoy, and so far I have found them in most MMOs. Just because I maintain a positive outlook does not make me a fangirl of any of them.

    If I am somewhat excited, then the reason is that GW2 (if successful) may inspire other game studies to produce MMOs that aren't WoW clones. We really don't need yet another of those, especially when it comes to gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    Please answer me this: - what I'm going to do when I already finish every heart, find every vista, jumping puzzle, complete every DE. Yes there are dungeons that will reward gear - ok lets say i did it all, got all the armors and even legendary weapons, what next? please don't say it will be events in Orr, without actuall reward noone will be doing this after a month or 2, if you dont believe me ask any ex Rift player about rifts, it was fun at start but soon everybody hated it. Land was devasteded by invading hordes of monster but players didnt even care, there was no significant reward for closing them down.
    The same I will do in WoW when everything is done; wait for the next content patch or the next expansion. A progression-based endgame does not mean that there's magically more content. Right now, in fact, I am out of things to do in WoW. I'm really baffled why people treat WoW as a game with infinite content when it is actually one of the worst performers in the "amount of actually playable content" category. WoW's strength is its progression game, which is what game development focuses on and where Blizzard does a very good job. But most of the rest of WoW's content is a bit neglected, to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I'm sure content will last for quite long time, but eventually it will all end and die, and there's nothing on the horizon. Thats the problem, in other mmos with raids players know there soon will be new raid, new gear to get, achevements to complete, and GW2 lacks a goal.
    As far as I know, GW1 had expansions at roughly yearly intervals (I've never played GW1 beyond Lion's Arch, so I don't know the exact details). There's nothing that stops an MMO company from releasing new content just because there's no progression game. Whether one needs an overarching goal is up for debate, especially given that even in MMOs with a progression game, most players never come even close to achieving this goal; so it can't be all that important from a business perspective.

    As another example, City of Heroes also did not have an endgame for the longest time, didn't have much of a budget, and they still had 2-3 content patches annually.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-11 at 10:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rezoacken View Post
    There is no game that feed you endless pve content.
    This is something that bears repeating. There simply is no game studio that can produce content at the same pace as their most avid players devour it. It's flat out impossible.

    You either have to pace your consumption of content, do some of the content repeatedly, or play multiple games.

    Expectations of "I want a game like WoW, except with a new raid and half a dozen heroic dungeons every three months" are unrealistic.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You'll never complete every DE, nor will you ever know if you have or not (there's no in-game measure of how many DEs you've done out of the total in existence), since they're constantly going to be adding more DEs to every zone, without ever even telling you if they have.
    Internet and information sharing websites say hi.

    There will be detailed maps of every zone with every DE within weeks (if there aren't already).

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