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  1. #181
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    You have no idea what you are talking about.
    Your statement is rather unproductive. Just stating that does nothing for anyone except let you flex your epeen. Why is he incorrect? Because I really don't think he's that incorrect.

  2. #182
    As a holy priest, I'm definitely looking forward to the lvl 90 tier talent meta game Mazi.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    @Havoc; We can never ever be better than others in any stance. I wrote this a thousand times, just think about it. We can be on pair when in the right Chakra, that's it... I DON'T believe a shorter CD would be the answer either. Sure, the CD is too long to make you willing to play around with is as you please, but... NTY:/
    Actually we can be better. Because to be better at one thing we take a penalty in another, which allows it to be more balanced. However that is actually beside the point.

    Not every class is equally good at both AoE and ST healing. All classes are better at one role than the other and which role is better changes for every class. That means there is a ranking order for both ST and aoe healing and the leaders in each category are different. If with chakra a holy priest can be on a par with the BEST aoe healer and on a par with the BEST ST healer, then chakra is a good design. Holy can choose to be either a great aoe healer or a great ST healer. Other classes DONT have that choice. They are either good aoe healers or good ST healers come rain or sunshine. So if a fight is all ST healing a class which is not good at it is screwed. If you have say a monk with great aoe healing, but the fight is half ST and half AoE the monk will be suffering during the ST healing part, but a priest can just switch chakra.

    This is how chakra started and when it did it was a great design. Right now holy priests in aoe chakra are not a par with the best aoe classes and in ST chakra they are nowhere near as good as disc, which is a secondary priest spec(!!).

    That means either chakras should be buffed or the healing bonuses need to rolled up into the base line for serenity and sanctuary chakra. Only the secondary bonuses and holy words should remain in the chakra.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2012-09-11 at 10:26 PM.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Actually we can be better. Because to be better at one thing we take a penalty in another, which allows it to be more balanced. However that is actually beside the point.
    Then every raid would be stacking Holy Priests in Serenity for Single Target, and Holy Priests in Sanctuary for multi-target. That doesn't happen. Why? Because we can't be better than other healers. We're benchmarked already in Chakra, any time that we cast a spell outside of our Chakra, we're casting one that is by default 15% weaker.

    Chakra should not be buffed to rectify us being sub-par in either role, because then we go to Flavor-of-the-Month mandatory, which is just as bad (if not moreso). Chakra's healing bonus being removed, with the cooldown reduction/renew refresh being the reason to be in one or the other. Or heck, remove Chakra altogether, give the Holy Words to us as individual spells but with shared cooldowns. I don't know.

    But buffing Chakra's healing bonus is not the way to go. That further cements us as a niche/stance system that just doesn't work, and it's really not fun.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Then every raid would be stacking Holy Priests in Serenity for Single Target, and Holy Priests in Sanctuary for multi-target. That doesn't happen. Why? Because we can't be better than other healers. We're benchmarked already in Chakra, any time that we cast a spell outside of our Chakra, we're casting one that is by default 15% weaker.

    Chakra should not be buffed to rectify us being sub-par in either role, because then we go to Flavor-of-the-Month mandatory, which is just as bad (if not moreso). Chakra's healing bonus being removed, with the cooldown reduction/renew refresh being the reason to be in one or the other. Or heck, remove Chakra altogether, give the Holy Words to us as individual spells but with shared cooldowns. I don't know.

    But buffing Chakra's healing bonus is not the way to go. That further cements us as a niche/stance system that just doesn't work, and it's really not fun.
    Not true, in serenity chakra we would be as good as another class which is great at ST, but not so great at AoE, in sanctuary class we would be as good as the best aoe healer class and we would share their lack of good ST healing.

    The whole paradigm of course rests on classes being good only at one thing, but that does not quite work anymore. Paladins have strong ST and AoE healing for example.

  6. #186
    The thing is, Blizzard stated they wanted healers to be good at both ST and AE healing. That's why Palas got AE healing and Disc, Shaman, Druid don't have to choose! Chakra is working against both that "rule" and also the "we want players to use all their spells and not spam the same spells". No Havoc, Holy can NOT be better at ST or AE, no matter Chakra. On pair, yes, but then the whole point of the mechanic fails. It's so simple logic.

  7. #187
    While I see where yall are coming from with this view, I'll go ahead and devil's advocate:

    The way I see it, it's not so cut and dry as the above posts make it out to be. The elephant in the room everyone is ignoring is that our toolbox of spells for Holy is substantially larger than the other healing classes. We have several AoE/ST hybrid abilities, and we're getting a level 90 talent tier devoted to even more customization. Holy is supremely adaptive and it's a substantial advantage, and if we were able to flat out have 100% equal ST and AoE at all times, Holy would be defacto superior spec due to variety of spells. The other classes have limitations to their abilities that can easily be overlooked on paper but in a raid setting it becomes more obvious.

    As a result, Chakra is a way of not only maintaining our toolbox but allowing for it to expand (level 90 talents, i.e.). We're not flat out weaker at the opposing role when in the 'wrong' chakra, at least not 15% weaker as stated above, imo. The lost HPS in certain spells is made up for in gains in others. You can't just compare spell A to B and call it a day. The complete package is what matters.

    In the end, it will be how well the content meshing with the Chakra mechanics that dictates how good or bad Chakra is. Specifically, the frequency of toggling between the two is the real problem. And for Cataclysm raids, it's been pretty much money. How it will be in MoP is a different story and we'll have to see it in those raids.

    At 90, worst case that could happen is that priest healing is low and it will simply be buffed with a patch. Much like how at Cataclysm launch Holy priest healing was too strong and it was nerfed. And remember that is when Chakra was introduced. Blizzard is capable of messing with dials without needing to redesign or remove Chakra.

  8. #188
    Don't live in the "Holy Priests got such a big arsenal they need to be limited by Chakra" lie... It's just not true anymore, ALL healing classes have many spells nowadays, you know. That's not an excuse.

    I was really thinking during tonights raid, and tried Disc a lil. While playing Holy you do feel punished if you use Renew/Gheal/Fheal in Sanctuary and vice versa. You DO NOT feel rewarded for being in "the right" Chakra. That is not something you feel playing other healer classes, and it's a damn shame:/

  9. #189
    *shrug* It's all in your head.


    What matters is the complete package like I said, and that's adjustable with some tuning. If we are too strong, like we were at Cata launch, we will get nerfed and if we're too weak we'll get the eventual buff.

  10. #190
    At the end of the day, Holy is a mana-limited spec. Given infinite mana, we can move mountains.
    The downside is that mana is never infinite, even now at the end of the expansion any holypriest can dry up by using the wrong spells. We always have to be on our toes to not overspend at the wrong times, and that's fine. Infinite mana is boring.

    In three expansions the mana game has changed a lot - mana used to be more like energy, now it's more like a finite resource - but the fact that holy is a mana limited spec has stayed true. I think that's a key point of what makes the spec interesting. Lots of power, lots of responsibility. I also think the mana game is generally too tight, but that may just be me. Enough about that.

    Chakra is an additional limiter to the Holy spec. Yes, it is a limiter. I don't see why anyone is even arguing against this. If chakra was never invented, Holy would be wielding a lot stronger heals, baseline, in order to stay competitive with other healers. Or have some other mechanic that allowed stronger heals, with some quirky and inane downside would be present that would be the topic of complaints of the day. Point is - chakra is holding us back, and that's the intent.

    But it's not a unique holy problem. Disc has an intent-wise-similar-yet-different limiter with Grace and an unreliable Divine Aegis. Shammies are all-powerful, until you spread out. Druids had a silly annoying mastery, and they're generally bad at direct healing no matter what they play with. Monks are limited by Chi, and paladins are seriously hampered by lacking snare attacks, invisibility, a ranged nuclear attack and a flying mount that farts fire. Well, at least two out of four.

    The question is, does the holy spec need that extra limiter chakra offers? I don't think it does; mana alone is what is holding Holy back. We don't need that second limiter. And I think Chakra goes against what makes Holy fun. You have many spells as Holy. The choice of 25+ different healing spells, and the challenge of picking the right one for the right situation. Chakra makes half of those choices "wrong" immediately. That's not great design. That's cutting away a fluent playstyle for a lesser one.

    And for what?
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Chakra makes half of those choices "wrong" immediately.
    I disagree with this opinion. The spells aren't wrong. You can and should cast some ST spells when in Sanctuary and AoE spells while in Serenity.
    Whichever spells dominate should dictate which Chakra you should be in. The pressure to not hit certain spells b/c you don't get a Chakra boost is DPS mentality not healing. A healer's job is to prevent death. If that means you need to cast a Fheal while in Sanct, do it.

    Holy has had a solid expansion with Chakra implemented, it's track record proves you wrong.

  12. #192
    i have a confession.

    i decide to dust off the holy paladin for MoP and bench the holy priest.
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I hear people say bring War back to World of Warcraft, well how about bringing World back to World of Warcraft

  13. #193
    I had a post here. I guess it was deleted? But I'm gonna side with Havoc. Chakra is bad design. Holy priests in general just have no niche. We aren't the best AoE healers. We aren't the best single target healers. We bring nothing to the raid bad raw HPS, and unfortunately it's lower then a Shaman's, Monks, Paladins. Why would you bring a Holy Priest? Because you couldn't find a better class.


    If the right chakra made us the best (hps) wise healer, that would be a fair tradeoff. Unfortunately, Kelisti was correct when that may lead to class stacking. The only way to solve this would be to strip all utility from a Holy Priest and balance encounters around HAVING that utility. But that's not particularly fun. I really don't know how to solve Chakra. Holy Priests just need to DO something useful another class cannot. We need a niche.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 10:48 PM ----------

    Druids have hots; Disc has prevention; Paladins have beacon; Monks are ridiculous, Shamans have the best stacked healing; and Holy has what? Guadian Spirit and Void shift?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 11:29 PM ----------

    What would you guys say to Holy Priests getting a passive talent that reduces damage taken by some % for a time after being healed by a holy priest? Maybe take 8% and start there?

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    I disagree with this opinion. The spells aren't wrong. You can and should cast some ST spells when in Sanctuary and AoE spells while in Serenity.
    Whichever spells dominate should dictate which Chakra you should be in. The pressure to not hit certain spells b/c you don't get a Chakra boost is DPS mentality not healing. A healer's job is to prevent death. If that means you need to cast a Fheal while in Sanct, do it.

    Holy has had a solid expansion with Chakra implemented, it's track record proves you wrong.
    Amazing how easily you prove others wrong, Themos. We disagree, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. Doesn't mean I'm right either, but you cannot disprove me just like that.

    Counterpoint: Holy would have had a solid track record without Chakra as well. It's not like hpriests would have healed for 15% less if no designer had come up with the chakra idea. I am also disagreeing with the statement that Holy had a solid track record (Firelands sucked!), but we've been on that discussion before so there is no need to repeat it.

    Chakra is a survivable downside. By all means. I can stay in sanctuary and prove to be a very good and reliable raid healer. But then I really am pushing the other healers into singletarget healing more. This is not a problem at all for 25mans, but on 10mans that can be a big problem. Or I can stay in Serenity, and prove to be a somewhat unreliable single target healer. But then I am pushing the other healers into more aoe healing since I will naturally hesitate to do that. I cannot really change focus on the fly thanks to chakra, and if I change focus, I will lose a lot of that all-vital efficiency that a holypriest must maintain to not OOMing. Is it mental? Sure. But it's also a very big point in longevity. If I do throw out those 5 flash heals now and save the day - I will run OOM and I will be useless 4 minutes down the road. So of course I will think very very hard about casting them. Had I been in the single target stance, I would have needed one less fheal, and another of them would have been replaced with near free HW: Serenity. That's where that efficiency really makes a difference!

    Frankly, that stance does count. Less potent fheals (or whatever) in Sanc, while doable in a pinch, just means you will end up going OOM if you try to cross heal too much. I think this is a key reason I always end up starved for mana in 10mans.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Counterpoint: Holy would have had a solid track record without Chakra as well. It's not like hpriests would have healed for 15% less if no designer had come up with the chakra idea.
    Not exactly a counterpoint when this is part of the case I made above.
    Class and spec tuning occurs regardless of Chakra.

    I am also disagreeing with the statement that Holy had a solid track record (Firelands sucked!), but we've been on that discussion before so there is no need to repeat it.
    *shrug* We've revisited this topic several times, you know my talking points by now.
    Differing experiences aside with FLs, blaming Chakra is a rather rose tinted view point.
    It never was part of your points at the time, shoe horning it in now is suspect and dishonest.


    Chakra is a survivable downside. By all means. I can stay in sanctuary and prove to be a very good and reliable raid healer. But then I really am pushing the other healers into singletarget healing more. This is not a problem at all for 25mans, but on 10mans that can be a big problem. Or I can stay in Serenity, and prove to be a somewhat unreliable single target healer. But then I am pushing the other healers into more aoe healing since I will naturally hesitate to do that.
    As someone who's done 10m FL and DS as Holy the whole way, I honestly never felt that. Both zones had very well defined burn phases for all encounters, it was very obvious when to go Sanctuary, and for general healing in 10m - Serenity performed very well for me. Whether MoP has that, we'll have to cross that bridge when we get there. My gut says it'll be better b/c Renew is better now in Serenity.

    I cannot really change focus on the fly thanks to chakra, and if I change focus, I will lose a lot of that all-vital efficiency that a holypriest must maintain to not OOMing. Is it mental? Sure. But it's also a very big point in longevity. If I do throw out those 5 flash heals now and save the day - I will run OOM and I will be useless 4 minutes down the road. So of course I will think very very hard about casting them. Had I been in the single target stance, I would have needed one less fheal, and another of them would have been replaced with near free HW: Serenity. That's where that efficiency really makes a difference!
    Flash heal was never a substantial mana drain for Holy due to how Serendipity worked. Even without Serenity, 5 Flash Heals is incorrect healing.
    It should be FHealx2, GHeal, Fheal x2
    How exactly Holy Word Serenity gets used in a scenario like that is heavily dependent on the number of targets and situation, very hard to just give a single answer with all those variables.

    Even as far back as early FLs gear, I've posted links of significant Fheal spamming being viable for Holy if you backed off Haste stacking and had proper gear (spirit on every piece you could). But this goes into old and obsolete arguments. We're in 5.0+ now.


    Frankly, that stance does count. Less potent fheals (or whatever) in Sanc, while doable in a pinch, just means you will end up going OOM if you try to cross heal too much.
    Is it so bad you can actually point to a specific death and say "GOD DAMN YOU CHAKRA"?
    Is the loss of 10% crit to Fheal while PoM/Renew become 15% stronger really that draining on mana?

    Are you trolling or srs?

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Is it so bad you can actually point to a specific death and say "GOD DAMN YOU CHAKRA"?
    Is the loss of 10% crit to Fheal while PoM/Renew become 15% stronger really that draining on mana?

    Are you trolling or srs?
    I think you'd better recheck your facts before you post on this topic any more.

  17. #197
    I am loving holy at the moment, played all through cata as holy and I am loving having my same old bag of tricks with a few nice bonuses such as Power infusion, DI etc but i have to admit the one thing that i love, which i never expected to like is those feathers. I dunno why but i love em!

    The whole mindbender / solace / FDCL debate will probably never be settled, i can see all three being useful and all three have pro/cons it will really depend on the fight mechanics and i imagine its one tier i will be changing talents in frequently!

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    I think you'd better recheck your facts before you post on this topic any more.
    While I disagree with the baseline of Chakra as a whole, what facts of his are wrong?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  19. #199
    I wrote up this big reply, but honestly... I think I'll just put this on the growing tab of things we generally disagree on instead, Themos. I do not disagree with all you are saying, nor do I agree with it all, but I do find Chakra stupid. Since your rule of discourse is that this is an incorrect opinion, no discussion will henceforth take place. And that's the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned.

    For the record: serious, just not to any degree you seem to be depicting.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    I wrote up this big reply, but honestly... I think I'll just put this on the growing tab of things we generally disagree on instead, Themos. I do not disagree with all you are saying, nor do I agree with it all, but I do find Chakra stupid. Since your rule of discourse is that this is an incorrect opinion, no discussion will henceforth take place. And that's the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned.

    For the record: serious, just not to any degree you seem to be depicting.
    So the amount of armflailing that goes on (particularly with anything to do with mana, yet you claim to come from TBC?) he counterpoints, and your only response is "no I'm serious, but I'm not going to actually have a discussion"? I mean, really?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

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