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  1. #41
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    I do think it can be very easy to overstate mana problems too however, i'd add. For some people, not being 'mana neutral' is equal to a bad mana situation; that is, finishing a fight with nearly the same amount of mana as you began (a good example being Cata druids who have pretty much had mana burn given their insane regen). Mistweaver monks for example have a pretty unideal mana situation given the need for Chi to build up Mana tea charges, and the relatively low proc chance of Chi with Soothing Mists (20%), and then there is the 100% chance with Surging Mists which has an unfortunately rather massive mana cost. I'm sure they will tweak numbers and so on, but from what i've seen in the beta, mana is not in such a crippling state at the minute for healers; not that there can't be improvements.
    Last edited by Alenarien; 2012-08-06 at 07:11 PM.
    "Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you." - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  2. #42
    I mean this in the nicest way possible, but are you sure you're not just being outplayed? I outheal Druids & Paladins on live often and Beta on some fights. I really don't understand your argument. Just because you can't play the class to it's full potential doesn't mean the class is weak.
    The day before 4.0 went live, I was destroying everyone in ICC. By a lot. In offspec gear. And suddenly, 4.0 hit, my mana is gone, I'm low on the meters and the Disc Priest is asking me what's the problem, his mana's fine.

    I spent all of t11 researching, talking to our resto Druid, posting meters over at Plus Heal, and trying to figure things out ( the answer I got was, "looks like you're doing everything fine but you've got some darned good resto Druids". Some of it was gear, maybe a lot of it. I've tried addons to increase my efficient use of POH. I've tried setting up groups (this is something I forget to do sometimes but I'm quite aware that's my own fault :P). I spent most of t12 writing out my own spreadsheets - from scratch - to improve my spell choice (the ones that H3lladvocate is updating with beta numbers as we speak in fact).

    As Shadow, unless the fight strongly disfavors the spec (or its a DS which overly favors a couple of melee specs) I do pretty well against several ranking DPS, without a DTR or DI, and sometimes without the 8% spelldamage buff if our Hunter is gone.

    My overheal is reasonably low. One thing I don't get is constant practice that you get from wiping all the time, and I know that would make me do better. It has entered my mind that it may be a skill thing, several times. However, the one thing that sticks in my mind is what my Resto Druid feels like. I sometimes open my character pane and go "oh yeah, I forgot I was that undergeared still." I feel absolutely no limit on my mana or throughput, even in some of the HMs we have done (I think I'm 3/8 on my Druid in like 392 ilvl). My mana only feels weak if I have to make up for something like a healer death or if I get *really* jiggy with my Rejuvs. And that's undergeared, I can't imagine what its like at gear level. Disc feels the same way - unless I get careless with Rapture or with shield spamming, I feel like I'm limited by my skill, not my mana.

    I liked healing Cata 5 mans when they first came out. It was the first time I ever felt like Lightwell was an absolute necessity. Our mana was bad, but you could make it through if you were good. And the moment I stepped into raids, I felt like I simply couldn't keep up with the damage. I had to take breaks, and I'd sneak a peak at the Druids and they were just going gangbusters.

    I'm not going to say I'm the best at Priest or even good, there could be things I'm missing and I'd love suggestions (I think raiding with a Disc means my heals get sniped a lot or my healing drops during period of low damage when the Disc can simply snipe it all away with shields). I will say that I've worked really hard on it all expansion with a lot of people and all I've gotten is frustrated. I can get the encounters done, even undergeared (I healed Heroic Hagara 10 man as Holy undergeared - THAT sucked). But I feel overall much weaker and the playstyle is much more awkward than my Druid (I have a level 85 Holy pally as well but that playstyle just doesn't suit me at all I've found).

    I do think it can be very easy to overstate mana problems too however, i'd add. For some people, not being 'mana neutral' is equal to a bad mana situation;
    What I'd like mana to feel like is how it feels like on my Druid - if I use the right spell, at the right time, and use my mana CDs early and often, then mana will take care of itself. Mana will (and does) gradually go down, and if the DPS is low or people are standing in too much stuff or the rest of the healing team isn't pulling their weight I will go OOM (I've had some of my biggest healing challenges in LFR when the rest of the healing team decides to take their break or whatever it is they do) . I feel like on my Priest (as Holy on live, Disc feels similar to my Druid in terms of mana) that there are times when I should just take a break and regen mana, and leave the healing to other players. Usually these times coincide with moments of single target "triage". For example, Madness. If I go all out at the start, trying to catch random damage from things like extra smacks of the tentacle, I won't have enough mana when it matters, and I won't make it from CD to CD. So I tend to just sit back and regen mana during those times, or maybe put out a COH, Renew or a Flash Heal to help (and maybe build Serendipity stacks), and watch as I get trounced on the meters. I never quite catch up on the AOE fests. My healing helps (our Holy Pally always whispers me thanking me for helping with the AOE damage), but I don't feel like I really measure up and my experience with Disc and Resto Druid makes me think the spec has something to do with it.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-08-07 at 04:47 AM.

  3. #43

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    As has been discussed at length in other threads, Chakra is a trap. It *looks* like it rewards Priests for being versatile, but what it really amounts to in most cases is a 15% nerf to your single target healing. A strong Renew means Serenity will be a bit more viable, especially for 10 mans, but that is just making Chakra less bad, not that Chakra was ever a good idea in the first place. At the very best, for 10s it might mean you sit in Serenity/Inner Will most of the time, using Renew and ST heals, and then when the big burst comes out, you pop Inner Fire, Chakra: Sanctuary, and spam POH. You better hope that big burst lasts for more than 30 seconds too, because if it only lasts 20 seconds you'll be stuck in the wrong Chakra for 10 seconds, and if the burst comes back in less than 40 seconds, you'll be stuck in the wrong Chakra AGAIN.
    I don't quite agree with you here - as with the SoR we talked about earlier, it's only bad if you actually have something in mind that could be better. The standard priest is without a Chakra - you can then choose to go for Single-target(Serenity - mainly viable for 5/10mans or tank-healing) or go for AoE-healing(Sanctuary). When you talk about LFR I can't understand why you would even consider Serenity unless you are dedicated tank-healer(and nobody is usually dedicated for anything in LFR).


    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    The day before 4.0 went live, I was destroying everyone in ICC. By a lot. In offspec gear. And suddenly, 4.0 hit, my mana is gone, I'm low on the meters and the Disc Priest is asking me what's the problem, his mana's fine.

    What I'd like mana to feel like is how it feels like on my Druid - if I use the right spell, at the right time, and use my mana CDs early and often, then mana will take care of itself. Mana will (and does) gradually go down, and if the DPS is low or people are standing in too much stuff or the rest of the healing team isn't pulling their weight I will go OOM (I've had some of my biggest healing challenges in LFR when the rest of the healing team decides to take their break or whatever it is they do) . I feel like on my Priest (as Holy on live, Disc feels similar to my Druid in terms of mana) that there are times when I should just take a break and regen mana, and leave the healing to other players. Usually these times coincide with moments of single target "triage". For example, Madness. If I go all out at the start, trying to catch random damage from things like extra smacks of the tentacle, I won't have enough mana when it matters, and I won't make it from CD to CD. So I tend to just sit back and regen mana during those times, or maybe put out a COH, Renew or a Flash Heal to help (and maybe build Serendipity stacks), and watch as I get trounced on the meters. I never quite catch up on the AOE fests. My healing helps (our Holy Pally always whispers me thanking me for helping with the AOE damage), but I don't feel like I really measure up and my experience with Disc and Resto Druid makes me think the spec has something to do with it.
    The change from Wotlk to Cata was probably the biggest overhaul of healing-mechanics in WoWs history. Previously it was all about getting people to max asap due to chances of getting 1-shot(spam-fest due to unlimited mana), but this changed a lot with Cata. It is now much more focused on attrition(I'm fairly sure you know this, seeing as you've actually looked into how and why it feels awkward to heal on the priest). I'm guessing that by the end of ICC you where pretty overgeared, and yes disc-priests have more active regen-abilities. This means that the more time discs have where they aren't required to heal, the further they will get ahead in mana-regen due to Archangel.

    I agree that the mana-regen can feel a bit forced - but priests have some pretty decent CDs to regen. Obviously it helps knowing the fights and especially the length of them, so you know when to pop those CDs to be able to use them more than once. I did however have a hard time letting go of Core or Ripeness even though I had better through-put trinkets, simply due to the regen.
    Let's take Madness as an example. Pop Shadowfiend on 2nd platform and you will be able to pop Shadowfiend+Hymn of Hope on 4th as well, effectively giving you 50% mana return on 2nd platform and close to 100% on 4th. You can have Sanctuary for the aoe-phase on each platform and Divine Hymn on the 1st(usually not needed) and 4th. Since the holy/sanctuary-priest is so focused on aoe-healing, I've almost completely stopped using FH/GH - only single-target spells I use are Heal(since it's practically free) and Renew. But you're right - I don't "rape the meters", however I focus on managing my mana, not letting people die and I actually do "win" on one meter - lowest overhealing. And I do see a big jump on the hps-meters once the aoe-parts starts. PoM, CoH, Divine Hymn, CoH, PoM, PoH, PoH, PoH...

    Anyway - I'm as guilty as you now for pulling this thread Offtopic. Sorry for that

  4. #44
    Troll is a troll is a troll... First whine about our discussion - then comes this.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Troll is a troll is a troll... First whine about our discussion - then comes this.
    Ehh what? Your two posts boils down to "I'm considering rerolling unless they fix Solace and Chakra". Claiming "most" are unhappy with Solace when only you and one other poster have said it was bad - if I'm required to read other posts/forums to get an understanding about this, I'd love to get directed there. Chakra doesn't change, so just saying "it's bad" doesn't really give me anything towards how it could/should be in MoP. Imagine Chakra being a choice in the "talent-tree" - would you say it was broken as well? Or is it merely because you now have an active choice while playing, that when you make the choice you also loose out on something else? You have an active choice that isn't similar to anything other classes have - really not sure how/why people are so upset about this.

    My view on the state of holypriests: They are slightly under the other classes in most fights however they are more fun to play due to the focus required to play them. My fun doesn't come from winning meters - it comes from finishing a fight, knowing I made the right decisions and kept everybody(that didn't stand in the fire) alive.

    How else would you like to see "active regen" if not in the form of Solace? HoH is slightly random, so then what? A small heal that gives mana back maybe? I agree on the "I don't want to dps when healing", but I think that's where we are heading with most healing-classes atm.

    Maybe go read the first two pages again - First couple of posts where fine, after that it turned into "Nobody plays holy on beta - nobody plays disc on beta - look at meterX - meterX can't be used - chakra is bad - Solace is bad - I might go reroll". Some of it was Felade and his (maybe misunderstood) sarcasm, but at least he had the decency to come and say "hey, sry I can see how that came across as pretty negative - I'll explain further...".

    I haven't played the beta - I also haven't really looked at forums for the last couple of months, so obviously I've missed some discussions about what's up and down. I was just hoping/expecting some more "here's what's changing for priests" instead of "Oh, look at my meters and it's obvious why I'll reroll".

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitetroll View Post
    Ehh what? Your two posts boils down to "I'm considering rerolling unless they fix Solace and Chakra". Claiming "most" are unhappy with Solace when only you and one other poster have said it was bad - if I'm required to read other posts/forums to get an understanding about this, I'd love to get directed there.
    It's everywhere on the beta class forums on both EU and US + the priest forums...

  7. #47
    I don't quite agree with you here - as with the SoR we talked about earlier, it's only bad if you actually have something in mind that could be better. The standard priest is without a Chakra - you can then choose to go for Single-target(Serenity - mainly viable for 5/10mans or tank-healing) or go for AoE-healing(Sanctuary). When you talk about LFR I can't understand why you would even consider Serenity unless you are dedicated tank-healer(and nobody is usually dedicated for anything in LFR).
    As you're implying, in any 25 man situation (like LFR), you stay in Sanctuary pretty much 100% of the time on live. Then, Chakra just becomes a button you push once and never again. It fails to be meaningful. For a 25 man Priest, Chakra amounts to literally nothing more than a nerf to single target healing.

    In 10 mans, theoretically, you have more reason on live to use Serenity. However, what happens in practice is that it often isn't worth swapping to serenity Chakra, because your Chakra cooldown may fall out of sync with damage phases, and Serenity isn't all that attractive anyway. You'll do just as well (or better) often if you just stay in Sanctuary so you're ready for the big hits. If someone absolutely needs a single target heal from you, you can cast it (but you are technically wasting mana whenever you cast an off-Chakra heal). Again, Chakra just ends up becoming a nerf to your single target heals, except in 10 mans that actually matters (that's one of the reasons why you see Holy doing generally worse in 10 mans than 25 mans).

    ON BETA - it looks like Serenity/Inner Will/Renew is the way to go. Even with the bug fix to Renew, it may still be the way to go for most of the fight, in 10 mans. Our mana just isn't sustainable otherwise. That just means if we want to swap to sanctuary, we either have to deal with Chakra syncing issues again or sit in sanctuary and deal with nerfed aoe healing.

    Spirit of Redemption is just all around bad. Sure, you might have ONE or TWO fights where you saved a wipe in the last FOUR years. Maybe. That doesn't make it good. SoR is an ability you actively avoid trying to use, every chance you get. Usually, if I die, we're going to wipe anyway (I don't say that as bragging, all I'm saying is that I try to always be the last person to die, every attempt unless wipe is called). This ability scales inversely with player skill, and that makes it terrible.

    My issues with Priest are the awkwardness of Chakra (and sometimes POH) and their weak mana regen compared to other healers. However, as I said, I have no problem getting the job done. If the game had nothing but Holy Priests, I would still be complaining about Chakra, but I would be doing fine. I can manage my mana just fine, thank you. The problem is what I have to do in order to manage that mana, and that other healers don't have to do those things. Things like stack Spirit which provides no throughput, hope the raid doesn't waste lightwell charges (so much fun having your performance determined by the ability of somone else in your raid group to do your job for you), sit around casting nothing, and nerf my single target heals.

    The issue is not that I'm trying to play like a Wrath Priest in a Cata healing model. The issue is that, in order to play in the Cata healing model, I have to throttle myself more than other healers because Blizzard hasn't properly balanced healer mana.

    I haven't played the beta - I also haven't really looked at forums for the last couple of months, so obviously I've missed some discussions about what's up and down. I was just hoping/expecting some more "here's what's changing for priests" instead of "Oh, look at my meters and it's obvious why I'll reroll".
    Kelesti already told you what changed. This thread isn't "what has changed for Priests" its "The state of Priests in MOP". The state of Priests is currently bad and here's why.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-08-07 at 03:06 PM.

  8. #48
    I'm quite satisfied with today's feedback on priest. If they go through with what they suggest.

    I'll ask again since I didn't get an answer last time (probably my fault for editing after posting): Do you have that bug with the ember primal diamond, not getting that 2% mana? I tried with 2 orange gems and it won't do either.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Again, Chakra just ends up becoming a nerf to your single target heals, except in 10 mans that actually matters (that's one of the reasons why you see Holy doing generally worse in 10 mans than 25 mans).
    I just don't see how "You can choose buff A or buff B" is the same as "The buff I don't choose is a nerf".

    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Spirit of Redemption is just all around bad. Sure, you might have ONE or TWO fights where you saved a wipe in the last FOUR years. Maybe. That doesn't make it good. SoR is an ability you actively avoid trying to use, every chance you get. Usually, if I die, we're going to wipe anyway (I don't say that as bragging, all I'm saying is that I try to always be the last person to die, every attempt unless wipe is called). This ability scales inversely with player skill, and that makes it terrible.
    The same could be said of ankh and combat resses. It's an extra tool that no other class have so I don't understand the "rage" against it unless you have some other great idea for what to put in it's place. Would you prefer if they just removed it and left the space empty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    hope the raid doesn't waste lightwell charges (so much fun having your performance determined by the ability of somone else in your raid group to do your job for you)
    Lightwell will get "fixed" with a somewhat mandatory glyph. I agree that spamming "click the lightwell" isn't all that fun.

  10. #50
    I just don't see how "You can choose buff A or buff B" is the same as "The buff I don't choose is a nerf".
    Go read the beta tester thread and all the posts about Chakra there. What it boils down to is that the CD on Chakra is too long and the benefits from Serenity are too weak (on live, at least) so Priests tend to sit around in Sanctuary 100% of the time and at that point Chakra just becomes something you turn on before the fight and amounts to a nerf to single target heals (because you never swap). Remember, Chakra stances don't make you better at ST or AOE healing, they only make you as good as everyone else, but you have to pay for that by nerfing off-chakra heals.

    The same could be said of ankh and combat resses. It's an extra tool that no other class have so I don't understand the "rage" against it unless you have some other great idea for what to put in it's place. Would you prefer if they just removed it and left the space empty?
    Combat Resses are totally different. They are a defining mechanic and strategy of raiding that you will use almost every progression attempt. Ankh resses are also different because they don't count against the combat res counter and the Shaman is completely, 100% back in the realm of the living as if he never left. The problem with SoR is that either way you slice it, you're still dead. You're dead 15 seconds later, but if you can't kill the boss in 15 seconds, you're still dead. Yes its powerful, but only for 15 seconds, and that power isn't worth the tradeoff of being dead. In fact, being dead is so detrimental to raiding that you actively avoid dying, which means you actively avoid using SoR. Yes you avoid Ankhing and Combat Ressing too, but in those cases the ressed targets could theoretically live the rest of the fight. The Priest is only going to last another 15 seconds.

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    An update for priests: we're going to reduce the cost of all heals by 10%, reduce the mana gain from Inner Focus, but buff Discipline to 50% Meditation. We're also making Power Infusion priest only, for fear that priests will be asked to choose that talent to benefit someone else.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=197#3922
    Last edited by Zarqa; 2012-08-09 at 12:24 AM.

  12. #52
    Well hot damn that's pretty awesome.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  13. #53
    Updated Inner Focus and removed the Renew bug from the OP. Am I still missing anything?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  14. #54
    I remember I saw some patch notes about Priets mana for using spells have been lowered a lot as well, where can I see that? or did they change there minds?

    Edit: I found it here on mmo champ
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Class-Changes
    If u look on Priest u can see that on pretty much all healing spells they have really lowered the mana costs. Is this still live?
    Last edited by Spoonman; 2012-08-18 at 04:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Blithe View Post
    Most of the Wildstar beta that I participated in consisted of global chat talking about how much better World of Warcraft was until we eventually logged off and logged onto Warcraft instead (that was hilarious).

  15. #55
    Spoonman:

    All of those changes you point to are still there (they're from the very first MoP patch notes).
    But they're not doing what you think they are doing.

    On Live, base mana (basically the mana you get with no gear) is at 28k or something. All the spellcosts are based off that value. So if a spell on live costs 10% of that 28k, it will cost 2800 mana to cast. That value will be on your tooltip.

    On the beta, there is no more "base mana". No stats (some exceptions for gnomes and metagems) can increase your manapool, so your manapool IS your base mana. As a result, all mana percentages are now based of your total mana (100k on lvl 85). So if your spell still cost 10% of your manabar, the spell would now cost 10k to cast. And of course, that's just ridiculous. So they lowered the percentages while they were at it. That 10% is lowered to 2.8%, but the actual manacost is the same - 2800 mana. If you just look at the tooltips, nothing has actually changed. But since it is the first patch in the beta, and the mechanics changed, they're all there.

    The build you are referring to is thus just a counting technicality. Spells didn't get cheaper.

    The changes we saw in build 15972 earlier this week was unrelated to that, and a genuine cost reduction. This change was introduced after a lengthy and interesting discussion on the official WoW forums where priests were complaining about the lack of mana to heal properly, unless boosted by an OP Power Word: Solace. Check out the thread if you like, it's a really good read!

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6201271578
    Last edited by Danner; 2012-08-18 at 08:34 PM.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  16. #56
    On the beta, there is no more "base mana".
    Not precisely. The concept is a bit different. You can no longer increase the size of your mana pool. If you are a Druid or a Paladin, your base mana pool is very small (say around 50k), and then when you take your healing spec (or balance spec for Druids I assume) you get something like a 400% increase in the size of your mana pool. This is so healing spells still cost a relatively large amount of mana for Ret or Feral, and are still reasonable for Resto Druids or Holy Paladins.

    Priests, since we have no non-caster specs, have a base mana pool that is equal to our max mana pool. It used to be similarly buffed like Pallies and Druids, but they just removed the modifier and made base = max for us. They had to drastically cut base mana %'s on spells so our mana costs were the same.

  17. #57
    Right you are Felade, didn't bother explaining the other specs
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  18. #58
    Hi Everyone!

    Not a flame post - just an opinion.

    I cannot comment nor speculate on how priests will fair with all the changes that have been made since i have not played the beta.

    I have played a disc priest for about two years now, sampled the other specs but disc was the reason i levelled a priest in the first place. That being said the one change i would like to comment on is the decision to make Atonement standard, i loved being able to choose between Atonement & SoS, particularly because i couldn't stand the Atonement mechanic from day one. Many will argue how Atonement is the better choice due to its utility and even stage specific throughput, i wholeheartedly disagree but this debate belongs in another thread.

    I just dont see myself healing with my priest again without my beloved SoS spec, even though some of the other changes look really useful (Spirit Shell come to mind).

    /SADPRIEST

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxickbunny View Post
    Hi Everyone!

    Not a flame post - just an opinion.

    I cannot comment nor speculate on how priests will fair with all the changes that have been made since i have not played the beta.

    I have played a disc priest for about two years now, sampled the other specs but disc was the reason i levelled a priest in the first place. That being said the one change i would like to comment on is the decision to make Atonement standard, i loved being able to choose between Atonement & SoS, particularly because i couldn't stand the Atonement mechanic from day one. Many will argue how Atonement is the better choice due to its utility and even stage specific throughput, i wholeheartedly disagree but this debate belongs in another thread.

    I just dont see myself healing with my priest again without my beloved SoS spec, even though some of the other changes look really useful (Spirit Shell come to mind).

    /SADPRIEST
    Disc contains both SoS and AA/A now though so you would not really be healing without your beloved SoS spec. The only problem that I would think that could arise for those who prefer not using AA/A would be if AA proves to be too powerful of a CD to not utilize.

  20. #60
    Ghostcrawler actually acknowledged this concern in the solace thread, and said they would nerf AA until this was no longer the case.
    Whether that means AA will be nerfed or not is anyone's guess. Frankly, it's one of those areas that really need some strong theorycrafting or opinions voiced.

    <OPINION>, AA is too good to pass up. AA+Spirit Shell looks really potent combined - or as complementary abilities when the other is on cooldown. The extra burst from AA really brings a lot to the table, and disc needs all the help it can get right now. </OPINION>
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

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