State of Priest - Enter the Mists [5.0] edition

[Venaliter]

While I disagree with the baseline of Chakra as a whole, what facts of his are wrong?

Chakra is 15% single target healing+ Renew refresh, or 15% aoe healing and 2 seconds reduced CoH cd.

This line:

Is the loss of 10% crit to Fheal while PoM/Renew become 15% stronger really that draining on mana?

Are you trolling or srs?

Made zero sense. Plus, you know, how chakra is nothing more then a disguised 15% healing nerf. That's not balance. Not when being in the right chakra puts you on par with the other healers. There's really no excuse to defending it.

[Kelesti]

Made zero sense. Plus, you know, how chakra is nothing more then a disguised 15% healing nerf. That's not balance. Not when being in the right chakra puts you on par with the other healers. There's really no excuse to defending it.

That's not what he's saying though. He's countering the "point" Danner put forward that the new Chakra design is limiting on mana and its worse. 10% crit to flash heal, versus 15% "output" to Flash Heal, didn't change the mana ratio at all.

Danner's armflailing mana issues, again, and has been since the nerfs that stopped mana-capping in blues as a person walked into Naxx.

[nobodysbaby]

I would really like to know exactly what you find interesting and fun about Chakra (for you who fancy it)? And can you do without it, is it needed to make Holy playstyle good? Wouldn't it be a whole lot nicer to not have to feel ineffective if you need to cast ST heals in Sanc etc...? Are you really feeling in the zone while in Chakras??

I dislike the change Renew>Serenity Chakra. I am not using Renew for ST healing much, if you know what I mean. I use it on the move, prep for big AoE inc etc. For me, it doesn't make much sense to make it benefit from Serenity... It's really not possible to say "this spell is for AE, this is for ST" for Renew. I see it as they only put it there to balance the Chakras out.

[Venaliter]

I wish they'd just remove the +15% healing modifiers, buff the baseline spells to compensate, and make Chakra, not exactly cosmetic, but more of a utility type thing. Maybe resetting the renew cd on Serenity, and Reducing the cd on CoH is enough, but that just feels sort of incidental.

I'm more concerned not with Chakra, but where exactly Holy fits in with the other healers in MoP. What's our "Niche."? We've can't AoE Heal like a monk or druid (when spread out), we can't AoE heal like a shaman close in, and we can't compete with Disc or Paladins on single target? What's that leave Holy to do? What's our "bag"?

[Danner]

Danner's armflailing mana issues, again, and has been since the nerfs that stopped mana-capping in blues as a person walked into Naxx.

Guilty, I guess. I always run oom, I am always undergeared, and maybe I am indeed exaggerating the severity of my endless starvation at times. But I cannot accept that mana has never been a problem since early Naxx. But whatever. It's nice to know I am the armflailing mana champion now. Makes me happy to hear

[Venaliter]

I wish they'd just remove the +15% healing modifiers, buff the baseline spells to compensate, and make Chakra, not exactly cosmetic, but more of a utility type thing. Maybe resetting the renew cd on Serenity, and Reducing the cd on CoH is enough, but that just feels sort of incidental.

What do you guys think of Sanctuary added a small +% healing bonus to those inside it, and a -% dmg taken buff to Holy Word: Serenity? Is that better or worse then a general healing penalty on the stance itself?

[Kelesti]

-% damage taken is a little risky, not sure I'd like to go down that path. Buuuut, I would personally love the target of Serenity to receive extra healing from Renew and Echo during its duration.

Sanctuary being a flat +healing to all would be a little much, but if it was +healing recieved from the Priest (similar to how Grace works) it would actually be decent, something a few of us were pushing for back in t11/t12.

[zoth00]

It's bad when you're in a break from wow, come back to check the state of your favourite class and...

Well, I don't really care about the numbers of if they remove things like holy nova (who needed it) or make AAA more of a requirement than an option.

But it's just crazy how chackra is still broken (hey, I barely played holy back in cata days and even I notice how many hpriests were waiting for some love on it), they make us cast loads more spells to get the same baseline healing than other classes, same regen. I mean, ofc you like more spells, but they should be an option, now it seems like we got around 5 prayer of mendings that we need to cast in cd (shield, PoM, keep stacks, spam mana regen spell between that window).

Maybe I saw sth wrong, but isn't disc a bit "don't stop for a second" mode? Tank healing still seems great, and even though I dislike SS it still seems a pretty beast spell (for sure this spell will grant us spot in 25mans), but the rest....I honestly don't care if our output is lowered, it's one of those things you get used (or it gets buffed), but when you see people complaining about disc regen being in pair with holy. I hope those reports are false, cause that seems to break my idea of pro-active game style that I loved in disc.

[nobodysbaby]

I'm more concerned not with Chakra, but where exactly Holy fits in with the other healers in MoP. What's our "Niche."? We've can't AoE Heal like a monk or druid (when spread out), we can't AoE heal like a shaman close in, and we can't compete with Disc or Paladins on single target? What's that leave Holy to do? What's our "bag"?

Very much this! Hpriest always was the Jack. But now every other healer are becoming Jacks to, with "spells for every occasion" kind of. I agree Holy needs some more oomphf. I always wished for Chakra to be a CD to empower either ST or AE healing for a short while. Now THAT would be a whole lot more fun and useful imo.

[Venaliter]

Very much this! Hpriest always was the Jack. But now every other healer are becoming Jacks to, with "spells for every occasion" kind of. I agree Holy needs some more oomphf. I always wished for Chakra to be a CD to empower either ST or AE healing for a short while. Now THAT would be a whole lot more fun and useful imo.

What if Spirit of Redemption wasn't an ability that triggered on death for a few, mostly meaningless, seconds of life, but what if it made our spells cost no mana for 10 seconds or so? possibility made us immune to interrupts, or made them always crit?

Priest development, even since BC, has been honestly horrible. I do honestly suspect not one of them plays a priest.

[Havoc12]

Holy does have a niche. Holy is the best or one of the best healers for a spread out raid and has extremely high mobility. Cascade, divine hymn, lightwell and the large radius of CoH/PoH means holy can heal a spread out group supereffectively. Our mobility comes from the fact that while aoe healing on the move, we got CoH, PoM, renew, cascade and divine insight PoM to cast. We also have lightwell doing passive healing for us.

so Holy --> extremely strong mobility, very strong healing of a spread out raid

[Venaliter]

Holy does have a niche. Holy is the best or one of the best healers for a spread out raid and has extremely high mobility.

Cascade is very nice, no question, but do you think it'll trump a druid in spread out healing? Or, I'm hearing, a monk? And I wouldn't define mobility as a "niche." How often does a raid say "There's lots of running in this encounter, I'll need a class specifically to heal on the fly."

Never? Never. Well, once or twice an expansion...

[nobodysbaby]

What if Spirit of Redemption wasn't an ability that triggered on death for a few, mostly meaningless, seconds of life, but what if it made our spells cost no mana for 10 seconds or so? possibility made us immune to interrupts, or made them always crit?

Priest development, even since BC, has been honestly horrible. I do honestly suspect not one of them plays a priest.

I actually like SoR! On a few very tight encounters it can really make or break a kill, I am not saying it happens often, but it feels good to know at the last 15(?) s you can just ignore healing urself and go all out if you die. Perhaps I am one of the few who fancy it, and in that case I would accept changes to it ofc. I see Chakra as the biggest Hpriest issue atm though.

Yes, I agree they didn't make changes I would have wanted them to do. I think I haven't gotten over the spammable CoH yet^^

[Kacie]

SoR and popping Divine hymn saved my raid last week it can be quite useful and I agree the only problem for us is Chakra. But I'm warming to Divine Insight and PoM it does some lovely numbers now I'm using it alot more now than before.

[Noradin]

I really hope they don't give holy a 'niche'. That design was horrible and hopefully stays abandoned forever.
If a spec (spec class combination) needs a niche to survive then that niche needs to be strong enough to make the spec indispensable in certain situations and thus the spec has to be either really weak in every other situation or all others need their own niche, too - which essentially makes the first spec really weak in all those, anyway.
We would go back to all raids stacking healers and taking only those whose niche is part of the encounter banking lots of players.
Also, healing priests would have to go back to be holy/disc dualspec, which would potentially give them two niches, so either one of those two specs couldn't get a niche of its own and thus starve or both specs would have to be weaker to balance the additonal flexibility.

Trust me, we never want niches back. They do more harm than good. We want all healing specs to cover all bases similarly well with different mechanics so we can play the spec that suits us and use the mechanics we like.

[Venaliter]

Trust me, we never want niches back. They do more harm than good. We want all healing specs to cover all bases similarly well with different mechanics so we can play the spec that suits us and use the mechanics we like.

/facedesk. No one is talking about making an AoE healer or a single target healer, but a small perk to bringing that class. IE, Disc has prevention. Paladins have Beacon. Shamans heal very well when people are grouped up...

What does holy bring? I'd like to see Holy do something shiny, something a little unique. Not mandatory, just useful.

[nobodysbaby]

/facedesk. No one is talking about making an AoE healer or a single target healer, but a small perk to bringing that class. IE, Disc has prevention. Paladins have Beacon. Shamans heal very well when people are grouped up...

What does holy bring? I'd like to see Holy do something shiny, something a little unique. Not mandatory, just useful.

I think it really wouldn't hurt to get the old Inspiration back or something similar (+10% armor/dmg reduction if crit, can be made different). Shamans have AF (+hp) aswell, Discs+Paladins dmg prevention+another bunch of CD's aswell to prevent dmg, Druids are better than Hpriests on the move I would like to think... And dish out more healing and masters of spread healing? (I really don't know Druids that well in 5,-->, but that was true until now atleast.

That would be a small "niche" for Holy.

[Themos]

I wrote up this big reply, but honestly... I think I'll just put this on the growing tab of things we generally disagree on instead, Themos.

Hey I'm fine with agreeing with disagreeing. We've done that before plenty

I do not disagree with all you are saying, nor do I agree with it all, but I do find Chakra stupid. Since your rule of discourse is that this is an incorrect opinion, no discussion will henceforth take place. And that's the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned.

Not quite, I'm not against Chakra hate or concerns. Far from it, I'm on the fence with whether it will work in MoP or not. But using it as a focus as to why we're not competing with OP or broken class/specs is where I think the line should be drawn. Healer tuning is completely independent of the Chakra mechanic. The onus is on the developers to buff and nerf at the begining of the next expansion. But we need to get there. Don't be so hasty to put the cart before the horse.

By all means hate on the mechanic itself, express your opinions and I'll likely agree with some of the issue but not all.



Cheers,
-T

[Havoc12]

Cascade is very nice, no question, but do you think it'll trump a druid in spread out healing? Or, I'm hearing, a monk? And I wouldn't define mobility as a "niche." How often does a raid say "There's lots of running in this encounter, I'll need a class specifically to heal on the fly."

Never? Never. Well, once or twice an expansion...

It will trump druids and monks. Holy mobility is as good as druids when the raid is spread out. I don't think, I know, because I am doing LFR day in day out trying all the fights both as holy and as disc. When the raid keeps moving and is spread out, my position in the meters goes up really fast, shamans and monks go down. When the raid is stacked in a spot, monks and shamans go up like a rocket.

Plenty of fights with lots of moving in every instance so far and many many fights where the raid is spread out. At the moment in 25man chakra is a non issue, because you are in sanctuary 99% of the time.

The problem with chakra, as things stand is we suffer a constant penalty in one of the two modes that other classes don't. Monks have roughly the same ST healing as holy does in serenity chakra but can switch between the two absolutely seamlessly. Palas have stronger ST healing and the same aoe healing and they also switch between the two seamlessly. They don't need to wait 30s to single target heal.

In fights with mixed aoe and ST healing holy is weak.

[Venaliter]

At the moment in 25man chakra is a non issue, because you are in sanctuary 99% of the time.

The problem with chakra, as things stand is we suffer a constant penalty in one of the two modes that other classes don't. Monks have roughly the same ST healing as holy does in serenity chakra but can switch between the two absolutely seamlessly. Palas have stronger ST healing and the same aoe healing and they also switch between the two seamlessly. They don't need to wait 30s to single target heal.

In fights with mixed aoe and ST healing holy is weak.

I agree with all of this. If Monks and Shamans are too Priests and Druids, that's okay, except druids have more hps in general and better mana management. I think priests need a buff here. Time will tell.

On a utility scale, I would guess Void Shift and Lightwell is to Rebirth and Innervate; and that's not terrible.