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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    I think it really wouldn't hurt to get the old Inspiration back or something similar (+10% armor/dmg reduction if crit, can be made different). Shamans have AF (+hp) aswell, Discs+Paladins dmg prevention+another bunch of CD's aswell to prevent dmg, Druids are better than Hpriests on the move I would like to think... And dish out more healing and masters of spread healing? (I really don't know Druids that well in 5,-->, but that was true until now atleast.

    That would be a small "niche" for Holy.
    I'd be more of a 'perk' I think, and I have nothing against those. A 'niche' would something you use to hide in from the ouside world and desperately defend against all others, because loosing it would mean the loss of a reason to exist.

  2. #222
    This "Chakra Problem" assumes that Blizzard has balanced Holy Priests around 100% uptime of "The Correct Chakra". But I don't recall any Blue post on the matter that would cause us to assume that. They may have assumed 50% uptime of "The Correct Chakra" or 0% uptime. It's not so easy to figure out or "Theorycraft" compared to a normal CD that has a duration of X seconds but has a Y second cooldown. Therin lies the problem. How do you theorycraft it?

    We clearly cannot have 100% uptime on "The Correct Chakra". In fact, the instant we cast "The Correct Chakra" our "Correct Chakra" spell goes on cooldown for 30 seconds. Looking at the Chakra mechanic this way, I would theorycraft the Chakra mechanic more like Inner Focus where every 30 seconds the next spell cast after Chakra is buffed by 15%. While on cooldown, we would have to assume that you aren't in "The Correct Chakra" and the 15% buff does not apply. Inner Focus is a 100% healing buff for the next spell which only works for certain spells much like Chakra, available every 45 seconds. Since ToT reduces the cooldown of Inner Focus your "playstyle" as Disc can allow you to get more use out of Inner Focus, much the same way your "playstyle" as Holy can get more use out of Chakra while your "Correct Chakra" spell is on cooldown. Our "Holy Words" are like icing on the cake much like the 20% reduction in mana cost is the icing for Inner Focus. Which is why our Holy Words can be flashy and pretty and add a little substance to the whole package but cannot be something so powerful that it stands out on its own.

    So if Blizzard balanced Holy Priests around having the 15% buff up any longer than once every 30 seconds then we aren't "balanced" correctly according to my "theorycrafting"!

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    -% damage taken is a little risky, not sure I'd like to go down that path.
    Hmm. Inspiration was in game for a long time. Well it was certainly useful, raids weren't cancelled without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Sanctuary being a flat +healing to all would be a little much, but if it was +healing recieved from the Priest (similar to how Grace works) it would actually be decent, something a few of us were pushing for back in t11/t12.
    5% healing taken would be a pretty good perk. Of course, it wouldn't be able to stack, just overwrite. Alternatively, maybe 10% extra healing or whatever from Prayer of Healing would be fine. It would have to overwrite as well. I don't think it would have to be priest specific. But maybe. The duration of Sanctuary would have to be considerably shortened, but that's a pretty fair trade off.

    If it was Echo of Light/Renew, that's also pretty doable. But how often will you Renew with Sanctuary down? If Sanctuary is cast, I expect you'll be using mostly Prayer of Healing, so the number for Echo to be of any use would probably have to be fairly high, like 20%?
    Last edited by Venaliter; 2012-09-16 at 01:37 AM.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    I agree with all of this. If Monks and Shamans are too Priests and Druids, that's okay, except druids have more hps in general and better mana management. I think priests need a buff here. Time will tell.

    On a utility scale, I would guess Void Shift and Lightwell is to Rebirth and Innervate; and that's not terrible.
    Holy priests chakra simply needs to be looked at it again.

    As for disc divine aegis simply needs to stop scaling so poorly with mastery.

  5. #225
    This "Chakra Problem" assumes that Blizzard has balanced Holy Priests around 100% uptime of "The Correct Chakra". But I don't recall any Blue post on the matter that would cause us to assume that. They may have assumed 50% uptime of "The Correct Chakra" or 0% uptime. It's not so easy to figure out or "Theorycraft" compared to a normal CD that has a duration of X seconds but has a Y second cooldown. Therin lies the problem. How do you theorycraft it?
    You don't have to - simply the fact that its pretty well accepted that Holy is neither THE BEST tank healer or raid healer and we aren't all stacking them, also the real performance data that has Holy in the middle to the bottom of performance (changes whether you are looking at 10 or 25 logs). That, and it makes no sense, logically, for Blizzard to make a healer who can simply do the job better than everyone else. That's what a model with Chakra making us more powerful than other healers would be - every comp would be "you bring Holy Priests in Sanc Chakra for raid healing, and you bring some more Holy Priests in Serenity Chakra for tank healing".

    People get hung up on the "niche" model, and they like to fit all the specs in boxes. From that kind of perspective, Chakra looks okay - you have your tank healers, and your raid healers, and then you have Holy Priests, who can do both, just not at once. Problem is, we don't have tank healers or raid healers anymore - we have healers who can do everything. Is a Holy Paladin a better tank healer than a Resto Druid? Probably. Can a Resto Druid heal a tank just fine through almost all content (pretty much everything but Baelroc)? Yes. From that perspective, Chakra is just another hoop you have to jump through as Holy that other healers don't have to, with no real advantage to it, and a real disadvantage (it makes Holy the worst triage healer in the game).
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-09-17 at 02:05 PM.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    People get hung up on the "niche" model, and they like to fit all the specs in boxes. From that kind of perspective, Chakra looks okay - you have your tank healers, and your raid healers, and then you have Holy Priests, who can do both, just not at once.
    Correction: We can toggle between the two once every 30 seconds

    Problem is, we don't have tank healers or raid healers anymore - we have healers who can do everything. Is a Holy Paladin a better tank healer than a Resto Druid? Probably. Can a Resto Druid heal a tank just fine through almost all content (pretty much everything but Baelroc)? Yes.
    We can easily tank heal as well as a Holy pally *AND* raid heal better than a Resto druid in end Cataclysm.
    We can do both(quite damn well), but the limiter to that is having to use Chakra.

    From that perspective, Chakra is just another hoop you have to jump through as Holy that other healers don't have to, with no real advantage to it,
    Not true, far from it.

    and a real disadvantage (it makes Holy the worst triage healer in the game).
    Also not true. Holy has been great at triage, especially for spread out encounters.

    At this point, you keep repeating talking points except they are obfuscated and flat out incorrect.
    I'm wondering how much of Cataclysm you actually raided as Holy.

  7. #227
    From that perspective, Chakra is just another hoop you have to jump through as Holy that other healers don't have to, with no real advantage to it
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Not true, far from it.
    VERY true, and if you can't see this, I really don't know what to tell you. Simplicity itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Holy has been great at triage, especially for spread out encounters.
    This is true, in MoP. Cascade is so much more useful to a healer, to me, that not taking it is simply "You are doing it wrong."
    Last edited by Venaliter; 2012-09-20 at 03:06 AM.

  8. #228
    I noticed an odd behavior testing Chakra: serenity and wasn't sure if it was intended or not. While in Serenity with the renew glyph on the duration of renew is 9 secs when cast. When I cast another single target spell the renew duration is reset as intended, but the duration is also increased to ~15 secs. The amount per tick is still hitting with the 33% glyph increase, but I am getting an increased duration. Anyone else notice this, and is it intended?

  9. #229
    So reading all these posts, where is Holy fairing against the other healers now in logs and what not?

  10. #230
    Nothing wrong with Holy from a performance point of view. Holy can heal any content, and after the 4-week-ago mana cost reduction, do so without inducing a heart attack in the process.

    This recent discussion is all about the mechanics on how Holy does that job. An interesting debate by all means.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  11. #231
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    I would love if you brought the Chakra discussion up on the US forums. Noones ever responding to the EU forums, so I gave up writing there half year ago. I would really like an explanation to what purpose they believe Chakras serve and if they feel it is a limitation to how we use spells, and if they understand it is a punishing more than rewarding playstyle for many players. Thanks!

  12. #232
    We can easily tank heal as well as a Holy pally *AND* raid heal better than a Resto druid in end Cataclysm.
    We can do both(quite damn well), but the limiter to that is having to use Chakra.
    4.3 Raidbots disagrees. Holy's decent at tank healing, Disc and especially Holy Paladin are more efficient (Paladins especially whenever there are two tanks). Raidhealing wise, they're even with Druids in 25s, but Druids win out in 10s, and in general have better mana regen (which is one reason why Holy stacked Spirit and Druids didn't).

    Can they tank heal and raid heal? Yes. Are they better than every other healer (what we'd expect if Chakra were balanced around 50% uptime in the correct stance)? No. They are about as good, or slightly worse. Which means we're balanced around 100% uptime of the correct Chakra.

    I'm not saying Holy's performance is necessarily low, just that its pretty clear from raid performance that they expect us to be in Chakra all the time (which makes sense since the only way it gets removed is by swapping or death, once you've set your Chakra you have to work pretty hard to mess it up). Balancing us around 50% uptime of an ability we basically have to work hard to not get 100% uptime on makes no sense.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    4.3 Raidbots disagrees. Holy's decent at tank healing, Disc and especially Holy Paladin are more efficient (Paladins especially whenever there are two tanks).
    Popularity != fact

    Tank healing for holy was VERY efficient and VERY mobile in Cataclysm, especially in FLs where you needed to run around a ton.
    Forget Raidbots, and try it first hand. There's definitely a higher skill cap on it, but it was very strong and a hell of a lot of fun.

    Raidhealing wise, they're even with Druids in 25s, but Druids win out in 10s, and in general have better mana regen (which is one reason why Holy stacked Spirit and Druids didn't).
    Prior to the Druid nerf stick, Druids rocked AoE healing. After, Priests dominated. And at launch Priests were it before they also got nerfed.

    Notice the pattern? Buffing and nerfing is what makes the best healer ... Chakra has nothing to do with it.

    Can they tank heal and raid heal? Yes. Are they better than every other healer (what we'd expect if Chakra were balanced around 50% uptime in the correct stance)? No. They are about as good, or slightly worse. Which means we're balanced around 100% uptime of the correct Chakra.
    You can argue that Chakra is a hindrance if you find yourself wanting to toggle it with every heal. But you need to realize that's not how it is intended to be used.
    Using class/spec balance as the corner stone of your complaint is a very dishonest and lousy way of making an argument for or against Chakra.

    I'm not saying Holy's performance is necessarily low, just that its pretty clear from raid performance that they expect us to be in Chakra all the time (which makes sense since the only way it gets removed is by swapping or death, once you've set your Chakra you have to work pretty hard to mess it up). Balancing us around 50% uptime of an ability we basically have to work hard to not get 100% uptime on makes no sense.
    Of course you should be in a suitable Chakra. That's never been a debate. You are either in Serenity or Sanctuary for PvE in Cataclysm

    For MoP, Chastise actually becomes a useful Chakra as well. And how Serenity/Sanctuary work out needs to be seen. I'm very hesitant from commenting on it until I've seen the encounters first hand. If there are burn phases and tanky phases with very clear defined periods, like in Cataclysm, Chakra as a healing mechanic will be fine again. If the damage is much more random, then there will definitely be something to gripe about.

  14. #234
    I've been trying to get 4721 haste for the extra renew tick when using the glyph, but after tonights raid.. feels like haste is totally pointless. Most of my spell usage were instant spells + PoH, and I barely used any renew. Sanctuary is still terrible. Obviously haste helps for PoH, but I don't understand why haste is supposed to be so great. It just feels pointless.

    I'm not sure exactly where I want to go with my stats.. it will probably be one of the following two:

    Spirit>Mastery>Haste>Crit
    or
    Spirit>Mastery>Crit>Haste

    Frankly, crit looks more interesting to me than haste at this moment.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    We can easily tank heal as well as a Holy pally *AND* raid heal better than a Resto druid in end Cataclysm.
    We can do both(quite damn well), but the limiter to that is having to use Chakra.
    Sorry what? You have got to be joking. Are you certain you understand how pala tank healing workss? Holy was massively behind disc and palas in tank haling and now its ever further behind. It doesn't have the cooldowns, the mana efficiency or the peak HPS that palas and disc have. Didn't in the past and doesn't now.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Castnicke View Post
    I've been trying to get 4721 haste for the extra renew tick when using the glyph, but after tonights raid.. feels like haste is totally pointless. Most of my spell usage were instant spells + PoH, and I barely used any renew. Sanctuary is still terrible. Obviously haste helps for PoH, but I don't understand why haste is supposed to be so great. It just feels pointless.

    I'm not sure exactly where I want to go with my stats.. it will probably be one of the following two:

    Spirit>Mastery>Haste>Crit
    or
    Spirit>Mastery>Crit>Haste

    Frankly, crit looks more interesting to me than haste at this moment.
    4721 haste also grant lightwell/lightspring an extra tick, which is why i went for it. Lightwell is making up around 20% of my healing on our 25 man attempts. After hitting 4721 haste I am now going for mastery.

  17. #237
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castnicke View Post
    I've been trying to get 4721 haste for the extra renew tick when using the glyph, but after tonights raid.. feels like haste is totally pointless. Most of my spell usage were instant spells + PoH, and I barely used any renew. Sanctuary is still terrible. Obviously haste helps for PoH, but I don't understand why haste is supposed to be so great. It just feels pointless.

    I'm not sure exactly where I want to go with my stats.. it will probably be one of the following two:

    Spirit>Mastery>Haste>Crit
    or
    Spirit>Mastery>Crit>Haste

    Frankly, crit looks more interesting to me than haste at this moment.
    My feelings are the opposite. I'm not even reaching the renew tick or even Lightwell yet, I don't know if it's just because of the nature of Elegon versus bosses 1 through 4, but I greatly feel the haste is helping more than Mastery. While on night 1 Echo of Light was sometimes my #1 heal with 20 mastery, I had far more output with a haste/spirit setup than mastery/spirit.

    The increased speed on Divine Hymn feels like it helps a lot since it heals the raid up faster and thus the fewer potential for overhealing. Also, who really wants to channel that entire 8 seconds of Hymn of Hope? lol

    Elegon attempts I was a part of (we did a lot of healer swapping so everyone got raid time and got to see the fight) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...?s=6513&e=6900

    Stone Guard 8min wipe w/Mastery: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3486&e=3985 (on the kill I was far more conservative because everyone was running oom at the end so I tried to make sure I had plenty of mana for the end. We also did the heroic strat, thus 8 min)

    Spirit Kings: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=14563&e=15138


    Just my 2c

    I think it's also always important to look at the "analyze" tab... http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...?s=6513&e=6900

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    VERY true, and if you can't see this, I really don't know what to tell you. Simplicity itself.



    This is true, in MoP. Cascade is so much more useful to a healer, to me, that not taking it is simply "You are doing it wrong."
    Well I have never understood the point of Chakra and smply makes us as powerful as other healers who get it for free. So please, for my benefit - what is the point to it?

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Sorry what? You have got to be joking. Are you certain you understand how pala tank healing workss? It doesn't have the cooldowns or the mana efficiency. Didn't in the past and doesn't now.
    This is true. Either way, Themos is one of the people I've come across on this forum that rarely has anything to contribute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    or the peak HPS that palas and disc have.
    He was, however, correct on this, I think. Holy HAS the HPS; it was mana efficiency they lacked. Now more then ever.

    Well I have never understood the point of Chakra and smply makes us as powerful as other healers who get it for free. So please, for my benefit - what is the point to it?
    I am attempting to answer your question, however I don't understand it. If you are implying I defend Chakra, I assure you I hate it with a passion, and am barely able to contain my contempt of anyone who does. If you are implying there is no benefit to Cascade, you need to roll another class.

  20. #240
    Just a few words FIX DISC PRIEST WTF IS WRONG WITH BLIZZ WHEN IT COMES TO PRIEST HAVE YOU FORGOT HOW YOUR GAME WAS!!!!! OMG STOP IT AND FIX US oh I dont need to say what needs fixing just look at what you took and ask any priest that runs arena yea were not too bad at all in pve but damm awful in pvp come guys stop just stop enough is enough troll all you want delete this all you want but at least you have seen it. iam so so tired of the beginning of a xpax where disc is bad while everyone else gets arena rating somewhat quickly while we have to wait until you finally say ok maybe we were wrong about our changes to disc spec!

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