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  1. #281
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    I am not good with math, but I give it a go!

    With my gear (478) I get these numbers unbuffed, without stance (except for Sanctuary itself ofc):

    Sanctuary 1500x15 ticks=22500x6 targets=135000 healing for 18900 mana (in the best of worlds where the raid stands in the same spot for 30s constantly taking ae dmg I guess?) No mastery on this spell. Often a lot of this goes to overhealing since stacking in AoE don't last 30s! 7hpm (I would say more like 3-4hpm)

    PoH=30000x5=150000*15% (mastery) healing for 13500 mana. Also usually a good portion of this goes to overhealing. 12,7hpm.

    CoH=16400x5=80000*15% (mastery) healing 9600 mana. 9,8hpm (Best about this spell is it has very, very rarely any overhealing so I still think it's ok with 9,8hpm)

    PoM: 21000x5*15%=120700, cost 10500 mana. 11,5 hpm.

    Notice I make these calculations WITHOUT Chakra (15%, soon 25%) wich would make PoM, CoH and PoH a lot stronger aswell, giving them 15% (25%) more hpm, wich makes Sanctuary look even more unattractive to use.


    So, in my eyes, Sanctuary needs atleast a 150% buff, to be worth using with the current cost. They could rly buff it 300% but increase manacost then. It would give 4500 ticks with 6 or less targets every 2s. I don't think that sounds like overdrive at all^^

    *reserveation for severe miscalculations
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2012-10-24 at 03:48 PM.

  2. #282
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    I am not good with math, but I give it a go!

    With my gear (478) I get these numbers unbuffed, without stance (except for Sanctuary itself ofc):

    Sanctuary 1500x15 ticks=22500x6 targets=135000 healing for 18900 mana (in the best of worlds where the raid stands in the same spot for 30s constantly taking ae dmg I guess?) No mastery on this spell. Often a lot of this goes to overhealing since stacking in AoE don't last 30s! 7hpm (I would say more like 3-4hpm)

    PoH=30000x5=150000*15% (mastery) healing for 13500 mana. Also usually a good portion of this goes to overhealing. 12,7hpm.

    CoH=16400x5=80000*15% (mastery) healing 9600 mana. 9,8hpm (Best about this spell is it has very, very rarely any overhealing so I still think it's ok with 9,8hpm)

    PoM: 21000x5*15%=120700, cost 10500 mana. 11,5 hpm.

    Notice I make these calculations WITHOUT Chakra (15%, soon 25%) wich would make PoM, CoH and PoH a lot stronger aswell, giving them 15% (25%) more hpm, wich makes Sanctuary look even more unattractive to use.


    So, in my eyes, Sanctuary needs atleast a 150% buff, to be worth using with the current cost. They could rly buff it 300% but increase manacost then. It would give 4500 ticks with 6 or less targets every 2s. I don't think that sounds like overdrive at all^^

    *reserveation for severe miscalculations
    I don't understand the number you got for Sanc - as I've had a single Sanc heal for 250k+ :\

  3. #283
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    I didn't calculate any buffs at all, no crits and no haste, no IF, flasks etc. Hero/BL...? Gear difference? Maybe that's the reasons?

    Would rly like if someone more skilled did the maths
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2012-10-24 at 07:14 PM.

  4. #284
    You know, I took the challenge and did some math.
    Like many of you I am quite unhappy with the potency of HW Sanctuary right now, and set out to prove just why it sucked.

    And.... I'm surprised by the result. Turns out, it really isn't (!!).


    (spreadsheet)

    Now, this spreadsheet is absolutely disregarding haste, crit, mastery, overhealing and all that. It's just showing you the potency of each spell by playing with max output values. Feel free to poke holes in it.

    You may want to increase the potency of PoH/CoH by your mastery percent as that should be covered for fairness.
    You may also want to take into account the concept of Sanctuary being underused, and sanctuary being pushed into overhealing quite a lot. All valid arguments.
    But... it's honestly not THAT hard to find places where 6 people can stack, even though the argument can certainly be made that raiding is more mobile than ever in this expansion.

    Even if that is the case, I don't think Sanctuary is coming all bad out of it. For being an "addition heal", it's surprisingly mana effective. Much more so than I expected.

    --

    But why do I feel it suck then?
    I think it's down to comparison.

    Most of it is that the heal is seriously nerfed compared to the days of Dragon Soul. In DS it was the hpriest band-aid that allowed us to raid. The set bonus that allowed a near-100% uptime, the fact that it didn't have diminishing returns, and the fact that it healed for like 3x the amount it does at level 90... these all helped a lot to make the spell fantastic. I don't think I overstate it when I fully claim that the spell is about 10 times worse than it used to be. And that's a downer.

    There's also new bugs. The diminishing returns trigger on virtually everything these days. Hunter pets, companion pets, ghoulswarms, tiller farm vegetables - you name it. If it has a friendly health bar, it will be healed by Sanctuary. And that healing will count towards the diminishing return. So make damned sure that noone is raiding with pets. GKick your hunters, force everyone to remove their pet rat, and the spell is pretty good!

    It's still worth casting, and it's still one of the most efficient ways to use mana if you can keep 6 people in the area of effect for the next 30 seconds. It just doesn't heal for a lot. It's down to the old adage: a spell costing your entire manabar, and healing every player online for 1 HP each would do an amazing amount of HPS and HPM. But is it a good way to spend mana?

    So yeah. Sanctuary is really dead to me, at least unless they fix the diminishing return crap. Instead, we now have lightspring. I really think it fills the exact same slot as sanctuary did. The bonus is that it can be used in any chakra state. The downside is that it comes at a 3 minute cooldown and absolutely does not have a 100% uptime. But noone can deny its potency. Lightspring makes a difference. Sanctuary really does not.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  5. #285
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    I really, really do not know how on earth we could come up with such different hpm regarding Sanctuary. What is that 1,15 multiplier on Sanc?

    And yes, the 30 s groundspell is "outdated" from where you stacked entire bossfights in DS, I guess... I never get less than 50% overhealing from it, making it completly garbage. Maybe it needs a redesign; lasting 15s, cost the same, heal the same (well, wouldn't hurt if they up it just a little!), and the same CD.

  6. #286
    1.15/1.25 is Chakra multiplier. In theory, the numbers don't look that bad. However, it still heals for less than it did when it was "bugged" and has enormous cooldown. If you're standing in a single spot for 30s - great, it will not be wasted.

    The problem is, we got new level 90 talents which completely outclass this spell in every way. You're spread out? Cascade has *shorter* cooldown, heals for way more, is ... well, not quite instant, but close enough and has enormous range. You're grouped up? Divine Star has *way* shorter cooldown, heals for more and is ... well, again, not quite instant. I'm leaving Halo out since it's kinda awkward to use, but can be pretty amazing in some situations. Also, don't they all benefit from Mastery?

    Sanctuary has all the drawbacks it had back in Cataclysm and it lost it's only advantage. It's especially bad, since Serenity is actually quite nice tank healing spell - not amazing, but quite good for its purpose. Sanctuary... not so much.

    Hell, rework it somehow and give it to Disc. They need something other than PoH for aoe healing. Holy has decent amount of tools already.

  7. #287
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    I miss the Mastery multiplier on CoH/PoH/PoM etc. Sanc don't have that.

  8. #288
    Well yeah, all of those should be ~20% higher due to Mastery. Says right there under the spreadsheet.

  9. #289
    Hey, I totally forgot about the lvl 90 spells. That's... amazingly bad of me. I will add them when I get back from work.
    Feel free to do so yourself in the meantime.

    As for omitting mastery, that is indeed a very valid criticism, given how much of an impact it has on all the spells except the top three in my list.

    But yeah, I stand by the statement that Sanctuary will not be a waste of mana or efficiency, if you can get 6+ people to stay in it for 30 seconds and the overhealing is acceptable. It will however be a waste of mana and efficiency if it heals pets and companions at all. I'll see if I cannot model that as well somehow...
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  10. #290
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    So Danner, you really feel Sanctuary is OK to use atm....? No need to buff it? Totally viable with 6+ targets then?

    I have to strongly disagree. I tried to use it at the beginning. I believe it was a total of a whopping 2% of total healing done. To me, it's a waste of a keybind, and I really miss using it in a stacked raid.

    As I said, I think the 30s duration is hopelessly outdated and should be cut in half.

    One more thing; You calculate spells with IF. I wouldn't cast PoH with IF. I think you better calculate numbers without any IF/IW at all, since you disregard every other buff or stat.
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2012-10-25 at 12:15 PM.

  11. #291
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    So Danner, you really feel Sanctuary is OK to use atm....? No need to buff it? Totally viable with 6+ targets then?

    I have to strongly disagree. I tried to use it at the beginning. I believe it was a total of a whopping 2% of total healing done. To me, it's a waste of a keybind, and I really miss using it in a stacked raid.

    As I said, I think the 30s duration is hopelessly outdated and should be cut in half.

    One more thing; You calculate spells with IF. I wouldn't cast PoH with IF. I think you better calculate numbers without any IF/IW at all, since you disregard every other buff or stat.
    It's viable, but extremely situational. You don't want to cast it if people are going to be moving out of it in 10 sec, etc.

  12. #292
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Where are you using Sanctuary Mazi? And do you have some logs of it.

  13. #293
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Where are you using Sanctuary Mazi? And do you have some logs of it.
    I casted it twice at the end of Elegon when we're stacked - but keep in mind a lot of people died and it was a shit fest. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...s=9823&e=10362

    Twice on Spirit Kings - pre-casted it before the fight started and again towards the end when we were stacked with maddening shout - it didn't get much out of that one but I had the mana to spare http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...s=9400&e=10044

    2 or 3 times on Feng during Epicenter and Draw Flame . http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2963&e=3404

    I plan on using it from time to time on Heroic Will as well.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    So Danner, you really feel Sanctuary is OK to use atm....? No need to buff it? Totally viable with 6+ targets then?
    I actually don't like it. It's so weak that it annoys me, and thus I usually end up not casting it.

    As I explained earlier, I think it's the reinstated diminishing returns plus the weakness-sauce of the spell compared to dragon soul, plus the fact that it's losing effect to DR by healing absolutely every unimportant sidekick that happened to be in the area of healing.

    The DR was probably necessary to solve the 25 vs 10 man power difference.
    The DR being affected by companions and pets is just stupid, and need to be fixed.
    The healing power levels is ... weak. Not compared to HPS or HPM, but compared to percieved effect.
    Add 20% to the throughput - or make it affected by mastery. They maybe.

    But yeah, right now, if it heals 6+ player targets for all 15 ticks with low overhealing, it's a very good way to spend mana.
    I don't think all those situations will line up right now though. And that makes it probably inefficient. The spell will probably see more action when we're drowning in mana. Meaning... not now.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  15. #295
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Oh, Mazi... Nice overhealing from it... Gosh!

    But what do you think of my idea? To lower the duration, just cut it in half.

  16. #296
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Oh, Mazi... Nice overhealing from it... Gosh!

    But what do you think of my idea? To lower the duration, just cut it in half.
    I would much rather a 1/2 the duration Sanc with the current total healing done, yes.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Mazi has the right of this. You're wrong, Noradin.
    While what Mazi said is true, it doesn't make what I said wrong, it just doesn't have anything to do with what I talked about. That's like telling someone he is wrong about the sky being blue, because the tree is green.

    Edit: Just so I don't get misunderstood: What Mazi said was relevant for the problem, and additional side of it if you will, just the connection you made by claiming it would prove my statement wrong has no logical fundation.

    I pointed out that i see potential problems with the design of the talent itself, Mazi added that we can change the talents we have active for any encounter, while that makes the problem less severe for us it doesn't solve the problems of the talent.
    Last edited by Noradin; 2012-10-25 at 11:01 PM.

  18. #298
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Okay nix the hw:sanc on will comment - didn't realize how spread out people really are, definitely not worth it. Although mastery here is unreaaaaaaal.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post

    I pointed out that i see potential problems with the design of the talent itself, Mazi added that we can change the talents we have active for any encounter, while that makes the problem less severe for us it doesn't solve the problems of the talent.
    I apologize for not replying sooner. I think you are dead wrong on this points; If memory serves, you were saying that stacking absorbs will invalidate them, because mechanics will "pierce" absorbs, making us useless. Not so.

    I can't think of any mechanics that ignore damage absorbs offhand. There may be one or two that I don't remember, or maybe some introduced in the new raids MoP, which I am boycotting.
    Last edited by Venaliter; 2012-11-01 at 05:56 AM.

  20. #300
    I was saying that if one class gets the ability to heap excessive amounts of aborbs on the tank, then Blizzard will either nerf that amount or invent mechanics to circumwent them some other way since they would trivialise some basic encounter mechanics in WoW otherwise. If the combined healing/absorb output of that class was balanced with what other classes have before it will most likely come short afterwards.


    Since I mostly like how the disc priest works right now I don't like seeing a talent which is designed to do just that and those provocing nerfs (we already have a lot of absorbs on our healing targets without it) while it gives something I think we could need some help with for our other healing spec (and which I feel that spec doesn't really need).

    Your second paragraph doesn't make sense. You claim my concerns that Blizzard will make mechanics that ignore absorbs when they get too strong (or nerf absorbs, which they did before) is baseless but won't consider encounters in current raids (where they indeed introduce some of those)? Thats like saying you don't believe a city called 'London' exists but you dislike the English weather so you won't accept any examples from around there while speaking of capitals in Europe.

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