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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    WHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT? So if I say an OP champion is OP and give reasons as to why they are OP, then I'm crying? I completely agree with your hypothesis. NOT.
    No, but when you not only only repeatedly yell about the strengths and don't even try to notice the weak points, even when several people shoved them down your throat, but also whenever someone says there are ways to counter her you ignore that in favour of yelling "nerf nerf" then you are indeed crying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    How about you provide some of those exploits? Instead of just repeating the same thing over and over and over that she has weaknesses, yet you have given none.
    I'll just ignore everything else, because I'd have to repeat myself for the umpteenth time. Instead I'll just repeat what both I and some others said earlier about Zyra's weaknesses(which you somehow managed to not notice): she's in the squishiest tier of mages, without any defence or escape at all. Any leaper can have a field day with her without giving her a chance other than teammates defending her ass. Well, of course unless you saved your ulti and E waiting for someone to come over to you, but then you had no presence in the teamfight other than the Q which is not any stronger than any other AP's nuke and the plants which most likely died instantly to the collateral damage flying all over the place. Plants' damage is strong, but they are flimsy and die so fast it's not even funny. You don't need to focus them, a single tick of any aoe ability takes down half their health.


    I'll repeat myself once again: she is OP, she needs nerfs, but if you ignore the weaknesses and instead only repeat "nerf nerf" you are effectively asking for her to be overnerfed. Also, I don't see how asking for her plants to die in one autoatttack/one spell, deal less damage, for nerf to ulti's CC, radius and damage as well as weakening her E is not asking for an overnerf.
    "Defending a position by citing free speech is the ultimate concession: you're saying that literally the most compelling thing you can say for it is that it's not illegal to express."

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I'll just ignore everything else, because I'd have to repeat myself for the umpteenth time. Instead I'll just repeat what both I and some others said earlier about Zyra's weaknesses(which you somehow managed to not notice): she's in the squishiest tier of mages, without any defence or escape at all. Any leaper can have a field day with her without giving her a chance other than teammates defending her ass.
    No. Her damage is high enough you don't have to build full glass cannon. If you get assassinated as Zyra, you're doing it wrong.

    Well, of course unless you saved your ulti and E waiting for someone to come over to you, but then you had no presence in the teamfight other than the Q which is not any stronger than any other AP's nuke
    First of all, Zyra ulti has a huge ass range. You can cast it at a position where you can't get hit by their backline, but you can still hit theirs. Second, seeds don't have a very long cooldown with max w cdr and blue. You can use multiple plants in a teamfight that lasts more than a few seconds. Third, yeah, the Q AoE is the same damage as other AP nukes. The difference is, it has a three second cooldown with W cdr and blue.
    and the plants which most likely died instantly to the collateral damage flying all over the place. Plants' damage is strong, but they are flimsy and die so fast it's not even funny. You don't need to focus them, a single tick of any aoe ability takes down half their health.
    They have true health. It takes multiple hits to kill them, with the only exception being turrets.

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeoni View Post
    The ults damage needs to be shifted to the knock up, not frontloaded. That's just stupid. Also, watching Scarra play Zyra at ipl is pretty scary. Amazing to see how good champions are in good players hands. I'm expecting a ult nerf and a plant damage and/or range nerf possibly.
    I agree with this partially, I think her ult dmg should be 40% initial and the remaining 60% on the knockup. No reduction in total dmg, just makes it so you can avoid part of it. The size of her ult makes it too powerful to be left as it currently is.
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  4. #44
    Herald of the Titans Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    They have true health. It takes multiple hits to kill them, with the only exception being turrets.
    It's because they have true health they get taken down so easily. They have 6 hp, an aoe spell takes off 3, autoattack 2, minion attack 1, direct spell 4, turret 6. Even if that aoe was ticking for 1 dmg it'd still take the plant off within 2 hits.
    "Defending a position by citing free speech is the ultimate concession: you're saying that literally the most compelling thing you can say for it is that it's not illegal to express."

  5. #45
    Immortal Duilliath's Avatar
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    Which is completely stupid. If Morgana shoots a dark binding for 400 or Trist a crit for 1k, that plant should be gone. If Cho'gath nom-noms a plant, it shouldn't be there anymore.

  6. #46
    Herald of the Titans Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    Which is completely stupid. If Morgana shoots a dark binding for 400 or Trist a crit for 1k, that plant should be gone. If Cho'gath nom-noms a plant, it shouldn't be there anymore.
    Then how about instead of focusing plants with your fed ad carry, shooting roots from your ap carry or using Cho's ulti at it you let a Mundo stand next to them for 2 seconds with burning adrenaline up or toss Ahri's Q eliminating them completely with both hits? :P
    "Defending a position by citing free speech is the ultimate concession: you're saying that literally the most compelling thing you can say for it is that it's not illegal to express."

  7. #47
    Immortal Duilliath's Avatar
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    Her plants are massive part of her damage output. I should be able to remove them. Trist can actually clear them without having to get in range of them. The Cho'gath example came from reading it on the Redtracker somewhere. And, like JitB, plants can be used to stop Dark Bindings ;P

  8. #48
    The nerfs are actually really reasonable. She´ll still be in a good place.

  9. #49
    Herald of the Titans Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    Her plants are massive part of her damage output. I should be able to remove them. Trist can actually clear them without having to get in range of them. The Cho'gath example came from reading it on the Redtracker somewhere. And, like JitB, plants can be used to stop Dark Bindings ;P
    In laning phase you can safely AA them in minion waves, in a teamfight they fall over by themselves from collateral aoe damage, if she sets them up in advance in front of the team they only last 10 seconds. Best way to remove them fast is an ability akin to Ahri or Sivir Q, since they are unlikely to evade either pass of the boomerang and thus will die instantly. And while it is possible to spawn a plant to block a skillshot it's rather hard to time it with the delay on Q and travel time on E; it's more in the realm of "PHEW, how lucky" than "Everything has gone according to the plan."

    Quote Originally Posted by Trollspwn View Post
    The nerfs are actually really reasonable. She´ll still be in a good place.
    http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board....php?p=8331242 the link.
    Yeah, very reasonable, though I thought they'd touch on the CC more than on the damage.
    "Defending a position by citing free speech is the ultimate concession: you're saying that literally the most compelling thing you can say for it is that it's not illegal to express."

  10. #50
    She's strong but I haven't lost in lane to her yet. Just dodge her skill shots and think ahead in respect to her plants. Best way to screw her set up is to walk over the seeds before she can grow them.
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  11. #51
    Most people could win lane against Zyra. If she wasn't good there but was awesome in teamfights why they nerf her good aspect and leave "bad" one non-touched?
    I think she was good but not op. Maybe some small nerfs were needed but that much is overnerfing. Got to try her after nerfs to tell for sure but I know I don't agree with some of nerfs. (Really... movement speed... nerfing dmg on plants , ult and roots isn't enough? >.<)
    Also - I love how they nerf new mages (Ahri , Lulu , Zyra) because they have great early but buff ad carries that have even more awesome late game Q_Q

    Non-Zyra related : Do people from Riot think? I've seen quotes like this : "Zyra isn't Eve tier" , "She's not as bad as Eve" etc... I just don't know what to say lol. It's so stupid from their side to say such things.

    Oh Btw... I can see LoL future : Remove all non-ad champs from the game ... I know it's overreacting but they keep nerfing mages and supports and I'm sad

  12. #52
    You can eat her alive with veigar. She gulps up mana like cake at low levels, when she's oom from spamming spells you can just blow her up.
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  13. #53
    Pandaren Monk vep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariselia View Post
    Yep the plants can hurt if you ignore them but so far I've realised ignoring Zyra is even worse :P
    The problem with plants is that you have to either carefully position them to set up a trap or stuff them right beneath, behind the enemy when laning.

    I mean, I can devastate anyone if I catch them in a bush with 2 or more plants but in lane, they are not so much useful :S

  14. #54
    ^ also this. Plants in lane aren't that useful. And I find 2xW->E->Q much easier to land than popular WWQE so have melee ones that.... well - are melee and can be easly dodged.
    But are these nerfs in-game? I've played Zyra today on EUNE and she's untouched. Is she the same on EUW and NA too?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    No, but when you not only only repeatedly yell about the strengths and don't even try to notice the weak points, even when several people shoved them down your throat, but also whenever someone says there are ways to counter her you ignore that in favour of yelling "nerf nerf" then you are indeed crying.

    I'll just ignore everything else, because I'd have to repeat myself for the umpteenth time. Instead I'll just repeat what both I and some others said earlier about Zyra's weaknesses(which you somehow managed to not notice): she's in the squishiest tier of mages, without any defence or escape at all. Any leaper can have a field day with her without giving her a chance other than teammates defending her ass. Well, of course unless you saved your ulti and E waiting for someone to come over to you, but then you had no presence in the teamfight other than the Q which is not any stronger than any other AP's nuke and the plants which most likely died instantly to the collateral damage flying all over the place. Plants' damage is strong, but they are flimsy and die so fast it's not even funny. You don't need to focus them, a single tick of any aoe ability takes down half their health.


    I'll repeat myself once again: she is OP, she needs nerfs, but if you ignore the weaknesses and instead only repeat "nerf nerf" you are effectively asking for her to be overnerfed. Also, I don't see how asking for her plants to die in one autoatttack/one spell, deal less damage, for nerf to ulti's CC, radius and damage as well as weakening her E is not asking for an overnerf.
    I have repeatedly talked about her weaknesses, and that's the laning phase, but you keep on ignoring it. That's not my fault.

    You keep talking about how she is the squishiest, when I keep telling you that in team fights, if a Zyra is ahead and in range of enemy champions, that is the dumbest Zyra around and deserves to die within a sec and should uninstall the game. Her spells have the most damage and amazing range, she is way too safe when casting these spells and a quarter decent Zyra can annihilate teams without getting a single hit. You seem to ignore this part COMPLETELY and whine about how she is squishy, she is, when did anyone say she isn't, but to get in range to deal damage, good luck with that, if you don't die before reaching her call me and tell me about it. If a Zyra is going 1v1 against a bruiser, that is, once again, a dumb Zyra.

    She doesn't have any escapes? What Zyra have you been playing? You don't call E an escape then wth is it? It's not just there to be use offensively you know, you CAN use it defensively!! OMG! YES! It's not on a very long cd as well, with 40% CDR (which btw, is of no difficulty for Zyra) is at 7 sec cd.

    Plants deal enough damage before they die and give the full worth of casting them. And they take two hits to die from an ability that will bring down an AD carry to 60% hp. Yup, not a broken concept.

    Your sentences make Zyra look extremely weak in any case and if a person, who doesn't play LoL read your sentences will think certainly that. Which is not true.

    The "cry" for nerfs is justified. You are so wrong on overnerfed it's not even funny. NOBODY is asking her to be overnerfed, just bought inline with other champions, you seem to ignore this completely and keep on going about how everyone is the world is an evil douchbag who wants Zyra to be broken. It's not what people want, wake up and understand this part. When some champion is OP, you are going to give your FEEDBACK (note: feedback, not cries), that the champion is OP and tell about the aspects where that said champion is OP, so appropriate changes can be made WITHOUT breaking the champion and removing the fun part.

    Quote Originally Posted by CertainlyT
    That's a lot of changes, and some big ones at that. We're confident that they leave her in a good spot though. Zyra's two major issues are that she is too bursty and too safe. This makes her hard to exploit. Enemies are having a hard time catching her, and when they do, they get blown up before they can output their damage. It gets worse: Zyra's burst comes from her base damages, so she can build defensive items to live through enemies that make it through her zone of control."
    Riot just said what I have been saying in this thread and something which you are simply not able to understand, she is too safe and too bursty.

    Extremely difficult to catch and IF people do catch her they die. THIS IS ALSO WHAT I SAID IN AN EARLIER POST.

    She doesn't need to get kills in lane and doesn't need to farm alot to become effective because all her damage is base and her CC can take out enemies long enough for the AD to do their thing.

    I didn't realize that her damage was so OP she can built defensive and still be more effective as other AP carries.

    Go ahead and tell me I need to L2P against Zyra and should "adapt".

    You seem to talk to me like all I have been saying is bullshit and make me look like an idiot. Instead, what I have been saying has been pretty upto the point and what you have been saying is simply not true in case of a quarter decent Zyra player. You seem to make every Zyra player look like a complete idiot, which is not the case.

    And you seem to go around and comeback to her plants. I don't give a fuck about her plants dude. How about you talk about her strengths which you have completely ignored upto now, completely. The only weakness you have given me is that she squishy. Damn, is she? She is the only squishy AP carry in the game. Right?
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  16. #56
    Legendary! Tizzlefix's Avatar
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    I find that when I play Shaco the Zyra has trouble getting me due to the elusive champion design I'm playing. I know Shaco has been nerfed in the recent past but I've noticed he counters Zyra pretty well due to his deceive and I never get caught up in her ultimate or anything.

    Honestly it comes down to prediction with Zyra, faster champions will have a much easier time against her. Shaco can deceive through her slow plants and slow her with his two shiv and the gank is set, late game just focus her.

    To move on, try an AP bruiser mid to counter her in the lane phase because people talk about her burst. Most champions that are known for great burst don't have it till around lv 6 with the exception of leblanc. I know the pro's are saying she's OP but something doesn't seem right, I'm pretty sure they could counter her pretty easily. Wouldn't Morde do well once he's built the hextech revolver?
    Last edited by Tizzlefix; 2012-08-07 at 03:32 PM.

  17. #57
    Herald of the Titans Caine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    <snip>
    OK, I'm convinced you're trolling me so I'm responding for the last time. If you are not read my earlier posts again to receive answers to most of what you wrote, I'll just summarize.

    At no point was I saying that Zyra is weak or fine, I kept repeating she needs a nerf (which is incoming, and in quite a reasonable size.). HOWEVER, what I find disgusting in your approach and what I reproach is how you are calling for overnerf instead of working with what weaknesses she has (Yes, asking for her Ult's area, damage, cc time and cc delay, plant damage, plant planting range, amount of active plants to be nerfed as well as making the plants die in one autoattack or one spell is asking for overnerf and grounding her into an useless piece of shit.). What you are providing is not "feedback" it's "waah, waah, nerf everything."

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Plants deal enough damage before they die and give the full worth of casting them. And they take two hits to die from an ability that will bring down an AD carry to 60% hp. Yup, not a broken concept.
    That is exactly what I mean by ignoring weaknesses. How about instead of blowing all your hard nukes on the plants you let Cass put one spell on them, let any aoe aura champion walk next to them on the way to engage, wait for them to expire before engaging or do any other of a ton of shit you could do instead of blowing Veigar's ulti there?
    "Defending a position by citing free speech is the ultimate concession: you're saying that literally the most compelling thing you can say for it is that it's not illegal to express."

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    OK, I'm convinced you're trolling me so I'm responding for the last time. If you are not read my earlier posts again to receive answers to most of what you wrote, I'll just summarize.

    At no point was I saying that Zyra is weak or fine, I kept repeating she needs a nerf (which is incoming, and in quite a reasonable size.). HOWEVER, what I find disgusting in your approach and what I reproach is how you are calling for overnerf instead of working with what weaknesses she has (Yes, asking for her Ult's area, damage, cc time and cc delay, plant damage, plant planting range, amount of active plants to be nerfed as well as making the plants die in one autoattack or one spell is asking for overnerf and grounding her into an useless piece of shit.). What you are providing is not "feedback" it's "waah, waah, nerf everything."


    That is exactly what I mean by ignoring weaknesses. How about instead of blowing all your hard nukes on the plants you let Cass put one spell on them, let any aoe aura champion walk next to them on the way to engage, wait for them to expire before engaging or do any other of a ton of shit you could do instead of blowing Veigar's ulti there?
    You are the one trolling here.

    I never asked for all those things to be nerfed, I said I THINK those things will be nerfed. All you keep saying is total bullshit and keep on coming with THE ONLY point you have, that she is squishy and that people need to L2P. Yes I want her plants to die in ONE SPELL and TWO AA's unlike what you are saying. Never said I want her to become a broken piece of shit, you just decided anything I said to be aggressive and offensive and decided that I want her to broken. So here is the thing, you can think all you want about my posts, and make up whatever bullshit you want in your garbage brain, I never said ANYTHING wrong or over the top. The points I made a completely valid (which btw you countered NONE) and most people agree with me unless you are one of the people who don't want Zyra "fixed", FIXED, which you seem to be a part off. Just look at the thread about Zyra nerfs and how everyone is going on about that she is perfectly fine.

    You seem to make the most retarded points I have ever seen, you are turning this into a total crap of a conversation by bringing in the MOST INVALID points. Example being blowing Veigar's ulti on plants. Seriously? I mean SERIOUSLY? That's what you can think off?

    Thank for turning a logical conversation into a total waste of time. If I knew you were this naive, I wouldn't have bother to reply to any of your post in the first place. Your last reply? Thank god we are done here.
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  19. #59
    Moderator Axethor's Avatar
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    Water and Caine, keep it civil. I understand your strong disagreement, but I suggest you stop now before it goes too far.

    OT: I played Zyra today and honestly didn't notice that much of a difference other than she doesn't hit as hard. While the nerfs hit her in a lot of spots, they were the spots that were over tuned, so this is just bringing her back down to earth. Still totally viable amd doesn't require a change in playstyle.

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  20. #60
    Her base scaling was over the top. Which was the reason behind her being so OP in team fights without getting kills in lane and with very little farming. With base scaling reduced, she will now need to be more active in lane and actually try to play more offensive and if someone shuts her down, she will feel it later on in game. Over all, the nerfs are in good place. It's not over the top but makes her a little less safe during team fights and less bursty but keeps her basic play style the same.

    She is still a strong AP champion. I am more interested in knowing if she will be banned more this week or people will go back to banning Morgana (last week Zyra was banned more then Morgana).
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

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