[MoP] Eternal Flame Nerf

[Envvyy]

Envvyy, I wasn't doubting your credentials...that wasn't my argument. Why you stated them, when your signature tells the story is sort of silly imho.

I have also tested almost every fight on 10 and 25. In fact, I pugged a few fights with your guild.
This is beta and I know #s will change, but I stand by saying that the EF will kill our HPS, to the point where we're going to be towards the end of the healing meters (though, in the end healing meters don't 'really' matter).
I never did say I was struggling as a holy paladin, and frankly that wasn't the argument. I was stating how I thought palys stand compared to other healers (in my opinion based upon the meters that I've seen from raid testing).

We have not pugged one beta fight, but that isn't the point.

All this will do is move our holy power spending away from blanketing EF to keeping up EF on tanks and using the rest of our HP on LoD. Obviously this will be a hit to our HPS but most of EF hps before was over healing anyways.

[DiamondTear]

I was competitive with druids and priests without CS, so if they fix monks too, I'm sure things will be fine.

Shamans are still gonna get benched, though.

[Nekovivie]

Hope it isn't nerfed too badly

[Envvyy]

I was competitive with druids and priests without CS, so if they fix monks too, I'm sure things will be fine.

Shamans are still gonna get benched, though.

What is your thought about not using CS??

[Deleted]

Sucks that blizzard is always nerfing paladins so bad. They always say " We don't want hybrid class to be so strong on DPS or Healing" and they always keep Shamans, Druids and Priest way better on both roles better than paladins.

Exactly which of the classes you named ain't a hybrid class? All healer classes are hybrids. They always keep the other healers better than Paladin? I'm sorry to break it you, but Paladins have overall probably been the healer on top most of the time, atleast for pve.

[Kerfax]

I'm going to stand by what I've usually said: Beta isn't over yet and if you read the post I put up from GC, he is still going to make changes to us and Monks. The sky isn't falling and we need to wait until live to start yelling about being under other healers. Before this nerf we were clearly on top for ten man and competitive for 25. I think we're still very competitive for both, it just relies on other spells. If they fix EF itll just give us another very powerful tool that we can use across the board back.

[mcbubble]

It's funny, I sat and talked to Envvyy in MOP BETA - about the EF nerf.
Unless they change the other 2 choices in that tier (Selfless Healer or Sacred Shield), then we're still going to have to take EF, simply because the healing coefficient is better than Word of Glory. The HOT is so miniscule that it's not even a deciding factor.
Regarding DiamonTears comment about being competitive without using CS - I think that's not a good way to look at things, because honestly, MOP for paladins is ALL about our free heals, because our holy power heals are our STRONGEST heals. Plus, we have a passive ability that's affected by haste which lowers the GCD AND COOLDOWN of our crusader strike. So, moral of the story: BE IN MELEE RANGE FOR CS.

[Kyuuseishu]

EDIT: Nevermind, my spirit was just so miniscule (be it near 4.5k) that it seemed like I was under the same buff, but regen still rises with a 2:1 ratio

[Envvyy]

It's funny, I sat and talked to Envvyy in MOP BETA - about the EF nerf.
Unless they change the other 2 choices in that tier (Selfless Healer or Sacred Shield), then we're still going to have to take EF, simply because the healing coefficient is better than Word of Glory. The HOT is so miniscule that it's not even a deciding factor.
Regarding DiamonTears comment about being competitive without using CS - I think that's not a good way to look at things, because honestly, MOP for paladins is ALL about our free heals, because our holy power heals are our STRONGEST heals. Plus, we have a passive ability that's affected by haste which lowers the GCD AND COOLDOWN of our crusader strike. So, moral of the story: BE IN MELEE RANGE FOR CS.

Looking into it more today, you would no longer use EF. SS + LoD about doubles the HPS of EF.

[Pasture]

Regarding DiamonTears comment about being competitive without using CS - I think that's not a good way to look at things, because honestly, MOP for paladins is ALL about our free heals, because our holy power heals are our STRONGEST heals. Plus, we have a passive ability that's affected by haste which lowers the GCD AND COOLDOWN of our crusader strike. So, moral of the story: BE IN MELEE RANGE FOR CS.

That's great if you have the luxury of spamming CS every 5 seconds, in addition to Holy Shock, in addition to Judgement with selfless healer every 5 seconds, but let's be real, after all that there's not a lot of time left to actually put some heals out there.

Let's not overstate the importance of CS. It's a handy trick if there's a period of low damage but nothing more. I think you're grossly exaggerating how powerful the HP heals are.

[mcbubble]

Envvyy, this is great news regarding SS. I'm hoping that they'll change SS to place on 2 targets, but since it now moves ahead of EF, I really doubt they will.

Pasture: You obviously have to heal when healing is needed, but if there is downtime when you don't' have to heal, you should be CS'ing, ESPECIALLY with
Sanctity of Battle:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=25956/sanctity-of-battle

It would be nice to get 2 CS's in instead of one, so I'm going to go for haste (spirit > int > haste > mastery > crit).
Sanctity of Battle is HUGE.
I tested my haste gear for a 300 second fight, and I was able to get in 91 CS's.
I tested my mastery gear for a 300 second fight, and I was able to get in 75 CS's.
I know that during a fight you won't be able to CS on CD, but 16 CSs in 5 minutes, that's 5 free full holy power spells. That's a HUGE difference.

[Pasture]

Tbf in your full mastery gear you're also getting free heals via the increased size of your mastery bubbles. You're not just gaining 5 free HP spells in haste gear. You're trading all those extra absorbs for five free HP spells.

I'm not doubting the mana efficiency of CS, but as with everything it has a trade off. Though, for me, the major trade off is positioning. Melee positioning can expose you to problems you don't experience at range. No doubt haste will be the main stat again, regardless, particularly early in MoP, so this is largely moot. If it's not too problematic chuck some CS out. Personally I don't like the playstyle of using melee range attacks as a healer. I'd rather Denounce or Judgement had a 50% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power.

[Diatenium]

So the healing talent that was clearly overpowered to anybody who really thought about it was nerfed because it was overpowered? Mmm, that's good smug right there, and a nice big "I told you so" cherry right on top!

Seriously though, whilst I was aware that the talent was going to be a problem I wasn't aware that it was accounting for so much of our healing, nerfing it doesn't fix the problem though.

First off, nerfing it into the ground makes it extremely unappealing to both prot and pvp ret; EF's inherent problem lays largely in how melee and healers handle the spell differently, and trying to make it balanced for one makes it a problem for another.

And even then I still think EF feels mandatory simply by virtue of the frequency holy uses the spell. Honestly, I think they should cut the spell entirely.

[sinisterwyvern]

Sucks that blizzard is always nerfing paladins so bad. They always say " We don't want hybrid class to be so strong on DPS or Healing" and they always keep Shamans, Druids and Priest way better on both roles better than paladins.

You realize that "hybrid tax" went away a long time ago right?

You also realize that every healing class is a hybrid class too right?

[iggyMG]

None of this number crunching will matter until hard modes anyways.

Just post back in like 3 months and then the real discussion will start.

[Diatenium]

None of this number crunching will matter until hard modes anyways.

Just post back in like 3 months and then the real discussion will start.

I'm sure most of us would rather we discuss these matters now so that none of us have to deal with it when they do become a problem, that's what a beta test is for--and last time I checked raiders -are- testing hard-modes right now, so your argument in that regard lacks perception.

[Nekovivie]

None of this number crunching will matter until hard modes anyways.

Just post back in like 3 months and then the real discussion will start.

Yeah and every country in the world having nukes wont matter until they all start firing them.

Moral of the story: Prepare for the worst.

[Evilhealz]

Sucks that blizzard is always nerfing paladins so bad. They always say " We don't want hybrid class to be so strong on DPS or Healing" and they always keep Shamans, Druids and Priest way better on both roles better than paladins.

I dont remember Blizz saying they dont want hybrids to be as strong on dps AND HEALING. The only thing Blizz nerfs hybrids on is DPS. According to blizzard pure dps classes should do more damage than hybrid dps.


^^^Yes all healing classes are hybrids.

[Azshira]

Without blanketing the raid with small EF's we just need to rely on, imo our bad aoe spells. Want to buy back the hot to HoR xD

[Reith]

Without blanketing the raid with small EF's we just need to rely on, imo our bad aoe spells. Want to buy back the hot to HoR xD

The new Light of Dawn is waaay better than the one on live.