Build 15952 changes

[Crudelitas]

glad we have theorycrafters on that

[Chimaera]

It has no distinct synergy with the 4pc. The 4p primary bonus actually devalues the talent.

[Jaarh]

How so? The four piece bonus increases the damage of the talent in line with the increase in the DoT length

[Twintop]

How so? The four piece bonus increases the damage of the talent in line with the increase in the DoT length

The old 4p bonus (without the +15% to SWI) increased the length of SWP and VT by 3 seconds, from 18sec to 21 sec for SWP. If you chose to take SWI as your talent, this means that instead of being able to cast SWI after 12 seconds (18-12 = 6, the threshold to cast SWI), you'd have to wait 15 seconds until you can cast SWI.

Over the course of a fight (figuring that every 15sec you'd have SWP up and ticking, SWI, and reapply SWP) at 15sec per set, if the fight was 450seconds long you could get 30 SWIs off (if perfectly executed). If it took 18 sec to do this set of casts, that means in a 450seconds long fight you can only get off 25 SWIs.

5 less SWI casts because of a set bonus is a huge nerf to the potential damage in fight of the spell.

25/30 = 83.33% the number of casts = 83.33% the amount of damage, so if you buff the damage done by each SWI with the 4 piece (0.8333 * 1.15) you get 96.83% damage. If anything, the 15% buff to SWI doesn't bring it back up to par without the 4P bonus. If they wanted to make it even out, they should have made it a 20% increased damage.

[Zamix]

So the new 4 pc set just goes to show that SW: I is a very lackluster talent to choose.

It needs a 15% buff to dmg or possibly more just to stay in line with the other talents....

[Jaarh]

The old 4p bonus (without the +15% to SWI) increased the length of SWP and VT by 3 seconds, from 18sec to 21 sec for SWP. If you chose to take SWI as your talent, this means that instead of being able to cast SWI after 12 seconds (18-12 = 6, the threshold to cast SWI), you'd have to wait 15 seconds until you can cast SWI.

Over the course of a fight (figuring that every 15sec you'd have SWP up and ticking, SWI, and reapply SWP) at 15sec per set, if the fight was 450seconds long you could get 30 SWIs off (if perfectly executed). If it took 18 sec to do this set of casts, that means in a 450seconds long fight you can only get off 25 SWIs.

5 less SWI casts because of a set bonus is a huge nerf to the potential damage in fight of the spell.

25/30 = 83.33% the number of casts = 83.33% the amount of damage, so if you buff the damage done by each SWI with the 4 piece (0.8333 * 1.15) you get 96.83% damage. If anything, the 15% buff to SWI doesn't bring it back up to par without the 4P bonus. If they wanted to make it even out, they should have made it a 20% increased damage.

Thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean, but SW:I received a 25% damage increase as well. Wouldn't that balance it out?

[Twintop]

Thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean, but SW:I received a 25% damage increase as well. Wouldn't that balance it out?

You're welcome.

The 25% damage increase is independent of the 15% set bonus increase, so it is a flat damage increase on SWI whether you have the 4p set bonus or not.

[Kalcheus]

Thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean, but SW:I received a 25% damage increase as well. Wouldn't that balance it out?

FD, CL was also given a buff. The purpose of those buffs was to get them even to Mindbender's damage.

[Jaarh]

Sorry, what I should have typed is that, given the buff of 25% increased SW:I damage, the 15% buff on the 4pc bonus would make it so that the damage is on par (or closer to it) with MB, rather than having the 4pc bonus grant a 20% buff to SW:I. At least, that's the first thing that pops into my stupid brain.

Figure that 25% of a 15% boost would be an extra 4ish percent dmg increase on SWI.

[Twintop]

Sorry, what I should have typed is that, given the buff of 25% increased SW:I damage, the 15% buff on the 4pc bonus would make it so that the damage is on par (or closer to it) rather than having the 4pc bonus grant a 20% buff to SW:I. At least, that's the first thing that pops into my stupid brain.

No, because the base damage when it comes to adding in the 15% buff from the 4p doesn't change it. Example:

Without the 4P I do 125 damage from SWI. This is after the 25% buff occurred, whereas before I did 100 damage.

If I cast SWI 30 times in a fight (no 4p), I would do: 30*125 = 3750 damage total from SWI.

If I cast SWI 25 times in a fight (with 4p, but no +15% damage), I would do: 25*125 = 3125 damage total from SWI.

3125/3750 = 0.8333 = 83.33%

If I cast SWI 25 times in a fight (with 4p, with +15% damage), I would do: 25*(125*1.15) = 3593.75 damage total from SWI.

3593.75/3750 = 0.9583 = 95.83%


This would be exactly the same percentages if I subbed in 100 for 125.

[Jaarh]

No, because the base damage when it comes to adding in the 15% buff from the 4p doesn't change it. Example:

Without the 4P I do 125 damage from SWI. This is after the 25% buff occurred, whereas before I did 100 damage.

If I cast SWI 30 times in a fight (no 4p), I would do: 30*125 = 3750 damage total from SWI.

If I cast SWI 25 times in a fight (with 4p, but no +15% damage), I would do: 25*125 = 3125 damage total from SWI.

3125/3750 = 0.8333 = 83.33%

If I cast SWI 25 times in a fight (with 4p, with +15% damage), I would do: 25*(125*1.15) = 3593.75 damage total from SWI.

3593.75/3750 = 0.9583 = 95.83%


This would be exactly the same percentages if I subbed in 100 for 125.

AH, okay, NOW I see what you mean. Thanks (once again) for explaining it.

[Direshadow]

I am extremely happy that Blizzard is finally making an attempt to separate Shadow Priests from Affliction Warlocks. Our spec finally feels like something new, and our dots feel more like a catalyst for damage, rather then the source of our damage.

[Crudelitas]

too many people does not like that. i, personally, like being a dot class. i'm not very interested in dd classes. i don't like ms procs with fdcl. they make the rotation so clunky. i liked DI until it was nerfed to the ground (even more considering the weekly DP nerfs). I absolutely wanted PI since tbc but the thing is, it's not working together properly with our "select your rotation" tier. there might be more sw: p or vt ticks thanks to the haste it gives, but that means more procs that should be used when it's there and less time to cast spells that benefit from haste. and if you take sw: i instead with PI, you'll lose 1-2 more ticks in that 6 second window. (it's just assumption though, not crunching any numbers at all).

we still don't have a burst cd. you might say that we can choose PI over other talents, but the theorycrafting of twintop(hope i'm not misspelling the name) showed us that ToF is the ultimate talent for single target fights if you're not running around a lot. so it's like "here's your burst cd, but you'll lose overall damage to compensate." i see the logic behind that. giving us a choice or making us sitch talents depending on the fight. but no other class is losing overall damage when they're spending talents for a burst cd ability.

and being one of the lower single target specs wasn't enough after all. it's all over "you multidot a lot, i don't like that, use mf a lot mkay? oh btw i'm nerfing your finisher and your resource generator too, so you can do even less damage single target and you'll be BALANCED on multidot fights."

i'm not generally whining about the numbers, i know they're supposed to change throughout the beta. what bugs me is the mechanics. been shadow since early tbc, and i quit playing my priest a few times to see how other classes work, and ran straight back to my priest with my heels hammering my bum. i loved the shadow playstyle, and now i don't. and with this design, they might make some people happy, but as far as i've seen only a bunch of people are happy with the changes and the majority is restless.

i know this happens pretty much before every new expansion, but this time it's different. they're not just playing with some spells and giving new ones. they're changing the spec all together.

not cool

[Deleted]

Bye bye mounted stealth you will be missed (SG now dismounts)

[Yvaelle]

Having thought about this patch a lot since it first got posted, the only conclusion I have come to is this.

It will not be the last major shadow patch before we go live in two ways:

1) Our design is still pretty crappy, and blizzard is going to realize that at some point - we still have months before MoP launch (so whine harder priests, the we're whining the least and so we're being ignored! >

2) Our numbers are way off. I kept thinking about why maybe the 8% nerf patch would make sense, but it doesn't yet - no matter how I think about it - these numbers are going to get big changes still. But, completely ignoring that they're wrong in their current number balance - the amount of class redesign I think we still may see before cata launch will necessitate (if I'm right about big design changes coming) big number shifts.

Frankly thinking back to past expansion betas, we always go through massive changes like this - and are always the last class to be scrutinized / polished by the dev team. So while a lot of classes are starting to look complete, I think we have to remind ourselves that not all classes are at the same stage of development, and we're probably one of the laggards.

Keep your heads up - changes coming I suspect

[Jaarh]

Having thought about this patch a lot since it first got posted, the only conclusion I have come to is this.

It will not be the last major shadow patch before we go live in two ways:

1) Our design is still pretty crappy, and blizzard is going to realize that at some point - we still have months before MoP launch (so whine harder priests, the we're whining the least and so we're being ignored! >

2) Our numbers are way off. I kept thinking about why maybe the 8% nerf patch would make sense, but it doesn't yet - no matter how I think about it - these numbers are going to get big changes still. But, completely ignoring that they're wrong in their current number balance - the amount of class redesign I think we still may see before cata launch will necessitate (if I'm right about big design changes coming) big number shifts.

Frankly thinking back to past expansion betas, we always go through massive changes like this - and are always the last class to be scrutinized / polished by the dev team. So while a lot of classes are starting to look complete, I think we have to remind ourselves that not all classes are at the same stage of development, and we're probably one of the laggards.

Keep your heads up - changes coming I suspect

Months? We have just over a month. That's a good amount of time to make changes to the priest class, but is it enough time to make the right changes to the priest class?

Now (not directed at you, SkillOverKill), are SPriest numbers really way off? I ask because I don't have anything to compare my numbers to, but in regular dungeons (yeah I ignored beta for a while and didn't get to 90) I'm pulling competitive dps with others, coming in first or second (and second is an extremely close margin - like 500 damage). This is up against melee classes too.

I didn't play a shadowpriest much before so its hard to me to make a comparison to the spriest of cata and wrath. I do like shadow priests right now and how they play, but I do agree that the feel of the class could be tweaked to play more smoothly.

[Kalcheus]

This is from the Hunter forum after the latest Beta changes, so ignore the Hunter QQ but you'll see where SPriests are currently SimCing. You'll also note there are classes (DKs, and Warriors) that haven't been tuned yet.

[Twintop]

Sims finished, quick notes:

FDCL comes out on top in Patchwerk, Ultraxion, Helterskelter, and Light Movement sims.

For Heavy Movement, MB is the best.

SWI is still bringing up the rear in every fight type (#7/8/9 in Helterskelter, Light Movement, and Heavy Movement; #6/8/9 for Patchwerk and Ultraxion), but the gap has closed some.

Patchwerk: highest DPS is 107.5k (FDCL/TOF), lowest is 104.9k (SWI/DI)
Ultraxion: highest DPS is 105.1k (FDCL/TOF), lowest is 101.9k (SWI/PI)
Helterskelter: highest DPS is 96.7k (FDCL/DI), lowest is 91.5k (SWI/TOF)
Light Movement: highest DPS is 105.1k (FDCL/TOF), lowest is 102k (SWI/PI)
Heavy Movement: highest DPS is 93.2k (MB/DI), lowest is 74k (SWI/TOF)

I'll have more detailed analysis (including stat weights) posted later today.

[Jaarh]

Sims finished, quick notes:

FDCL comes out on top in Patchwerk, Ultraxion, Helterskelter, and Light Movement sims.

For Heavy Movement, MB is the best.

SWI is still bringing up the rear in every fight type (#7/8/9 in Helterskelter, Light Movement, and Heavy Movement; #6/8/9 for Patchwerk and Ultraxion), but the gap has closed some.

Patchwerk: highest DPS is 107.5k (FDCL/TOF), lowest is 104.9k (SWI/DI)
Ultraxion: highest DPS is 105.1k (FDCL/TOF), lowest is 101.9k (SWI/PI)
Helterskelter: highest DPS is 96.7k (FDCL/DI), lowest is 91.5k (SWI/TOF)
Light Movement: highest DPS is 105.1k (FDCL/TOF), lowest is 102k (SWI/PI)
Heavy Movement: highest DPS is 93.2k (MB/DI), lowest is 74k (SWI/TOF)

I'll have more detailed analysis (including stat weights) posted later today.

Thanks for the sims. Good to see that the damage gaps are closing. For light movement, a DPS gap of 3k doesn't seem to be that bad. Means they're getting closer.