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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by UnderworldSoup View Post
    Eternal Glory played a large hand in that as well though.
    And how did the devs "fix" it? By slapping on a CD on WoG instead of a PPM or ICD on the talents that made it OP.

    That is what made me lose a lot of faith in ret ever being properly balanced in pvp and this new buff to Holy Avenger, that encourages BURST, makes me lose more.
    Last edited by bot v2.38beta; 2012-08-08 at 01:54 PM.
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  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire Arthur-the-exalted's Avatar
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    With how many times we paladins get hit with the nerf bat, we should be able to call the police on blizzard for domestic violence.....

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur-the-exalted View Post
    With how many times we paladins get hit with the nerf bat, we should be able to call the police on blizzard for domestic violence.....
    the police stopped taking our phone calls a few years back because we keeping coming back to blizzard.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    What I'm really suprised about is the Divine purpose buff..I mean buffing something that most of Ret paladins if not all of them hate it...
    I don't hate it, I love it, it's amazing for pvp, but it is going to get nerfed without a doubt because I managed to chain 7 wogs even when it was at 20%.

  5. #45
    Pandaren Monk solvexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    I don't hate it, I love it, it's amazing for pvp, but it is going to get nerfed without a doubt because I managed to chain 7 wogs even when it was at 20%.
    The WoGs are no where near as large as what they are now.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    What is this "middle of the pack" crap? Ret is a damage spec that does not bring more buffs than others and there even are pures that bring more stuff to the raid than ret. So what is that "middle of the pack"? It sounds absolutely irrational to have ret deal intentionally less dmg.

    It's a DD spec and should be on par with every other dd. Or we get something that justifies this nonsense hybrid taxation.

    Why should ret be supposed to deal less dmg than the rest? Why? Is it because it's ret and ret is just not allowed to be on the same lvl dmg wise as the rest? That is just retarded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicy View Post
    You clearly didnt test heroic modes or 25man.

    OT: Was doing fine on anything that didnt require heavy targetswitching in the previous build on 25man. Not sure if i like the Holy Avenger change at all tho. :<

    1: I did test them. That has nothing to do with anything. 70M hp from Lei Shi was an example of how the DPS needed to be toned down, as the boss had less HP than Ultraxion heroic did in Cataclysm, but people were doing like... 30-50% more damage than we are right now in full BiS gear. I'm well aware that during testing, Lei shi 10heroic had 250M hp (and was overtuned due to the "get away"-spray completly obliterating people if you didn't have a ton of resto druids or shamans with spiritwalker).
    2: You two completly missed the point I was making:

    Again, I'll try to explain what I mean. And as using completly artificial numbers as 50k, 60k, 70k, and 80k obviously didn't work to explain it well, I will be using:
    X - Y - Z for "lowest - mid - highest". You can substitute the letters for any amount of DPS you want, it really doesn't matter for what I'm trying to explain.

    Let's take a scenario, where every class is doing X-Y-Z damage, with a given class (like retri paladins) at the Y position, smack down in the middle of the pack.
    You would assume that your class is now balanced, but this is not the case. What if Blizzard wants every class to do less dps than X-Y-Z? Lets say, that they want "X" to be the "top" dps, instead of "Z". To do this, they'd have to nerf any classes that are above the X position, with varying degrees - Y would take, say, a 10% nerf in order to be nudged down to the X position, and Z would take a 20% nerf as it was *that* far ahead of X beforehand.

    This is what you're seeing in the beta-adjustment builds. Blizzard trying to balance everyone around a lower DPS output than has previously been achiveable. If you're in the middle of the pack and you get nerfed to fool around with the one's at the bottom, you can be sure that anyone else in the middle and at the top will also be nerfed (case and point - have you seen the treatment every other "middle of the pack" or "top of the pack" class got, such as Lock's, Hunters, Boomkins, Shadow Priest, and Shamans got?).

    This is not the end of one class. This is the adjustment of every class to do less damage than we have previously been able to output.

  7. #47
    God I hate our burst. I don't care about PVP. I want consistent damage ffs. I would choose Divine Purpose over Holy Avenger any day of the week. Procs still give a source of consistent damage. I hate waiting around for 2 minutes for a 15 second burst.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazycheeze View Post
    God I hate our burst. I don't care about PVP. I want consistent damage ffs. I would choose Divine Purpose over Holy Avenger any day of the week. Procs still give a source of consistent damage. I hate waiting around for 2 minutes for a 15 second burst.
    Reroll then? >_> I personally LOVE our niche in arena, a mobile support class that can burst every 2 min.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    The WoGs are no where near as large as what they are now.
    Yes they are, on ourselves they are doing great healing imo, especially if you can spam it x times in a row. Selfless healer back in 4.0.6 wasn't anywhere near as bad as it has gotten now so have to wonder if they thought our self healing was too much back then too. Rofl...


    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    Reroll then? >_> I personally LOVE our niche in arena, a mobile support class that can burst every 2 min.
    Niche being un-viable, uncompetitive and OP at 1500. Yeah great, can't wait for another expansion of that....

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    The WoGs are no where near as large as what they are now.
    Irrelevant, the firing rate overpowers the ammount, granting flexibility and tactical use over 'use on cooldown'

    Numbers in entry (we're in end of the expansion gear on live, thus the ammount) pvp gear at 90 are close to 8/12% (16/24 crits) of our life, that is already giving a health return clearly lower but not too far to the powerhouse cooldowned WoG.

    As MoP goes on WoG will scale into what it is now at live, the rating at which it can be used will kick in and the forums will be dyed red by the bleeding tears of the community.
    Last edited by Veliane; 2012-08-08 at 05:02 PM.

  11. #51
    Moderator Azshira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Except Divine Purpose is for paladins in general, and optional at that. You don't have to take it if you don't want it. The only reason that RNG was so hated was because it was unavoidable.
    I like Divine Purpose and I will need to test the new Avenger, but I personally think it is proccing awesomely on beta at the moment. I do have a thing for passives though, less stuff to watch I guess. But hey RNG is RNG. I agree with your post "you don't HAVE to take it if you don't want it", it's a nice choice for someone who likes passives.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    1: I did test them. That has nothing to do with anything. 70M hp from Lei Shi was an example of how the DPS needed to be toned down, as the boss had less HP than Ultraxion heroic did in Cataclysm, but people were doing like... 30-50% more damage than we are right now in full BiS gear. I'm well aware that during testing, Lei shi 10heroic had 250M hp (and was overtuned due to the "get away"-spray completly obliterating people if you didn't have a ton of resto druids or shamans with spiritwalker).
    2: You two completly missed the point I was making:

    Again, I'll try to explain what I mean. And as using completly artificial numbers as 50k, 60k, 70k, and 80k obviously didn't work to explain it well, I will be using:
    X - Y - Z for "lowest - mid - highest". You can substitute the letters for any amount of DPS you want, it really doesn't matter for what I'm trying to explain.

    Let's take a scenario, where every class is doing X-Y-Z damage, with a given class (like retri paladins) at the Y position, smack down in the middle of the pack.
    You would assume that your class is now balanced, but this is not the case. What if Blizzard wants every class to do less dps than X-Y-Z? Lets say, that they want "X" to be the "top" dps, instead of "Z". To do this, they'd have to nerf any classes that are above the X position, with varying degrees - Y would take, say, a 10% nerf in order to be nudged down to the X position, and Z would take a 20% nerf as it was *that* far ahead of X beforehand.

    This is what you're seeing in the beta-adjustment builds. Blizzard trying to balance everyone around a lower DPS output than has previously been achiveable. If you're in the middle of the pack and you get nerfed to fool around with the one's at the bottom, you can be sure that anyone else in the middle and at the top will also be nerfed (case and point - have you seen the treatment every other "middle of the pack" or "top of the pack" class got, such as Lock's, Hunters, Boomkins, Shadow Priest, and Shamans got?).

    This is not the end of one class. This is the adjustment of every class to do less damage than we have previously been able to output.

    But according to the nerfs we've got, we must have been top of the pack before -_-... I mean.. That were some huge nerfs and they came out of nowhere, so it seemed. A bit more transparency on what Blizzard's goal actually is would be really awesome. Or they should not offer open betas. Nerfs need to be explained unless they are obvious. And ret did not seem to be through the roof in the beta. And this is where your theory comes into play.. One question, however, persists. Why such a huge nerf to our sustained dmg and a buff to our burst? That were the issues of ret before cata. And in PvP we ate nerf after nerf because we could steamroll all those low skill/equip anti-pvp dudes trying to do pvp...

    It just does not make any sense. I understood now what you mean, but it does not explain the way we were nerfed.

    Edit: Picking up on the "nice choice" in regard of Divine Purpose. I believe that using HoPo abilities by spending only one Holy Power (Inq, Wog) may also proc Divine Purpose. So, the chance would be 25% and the effort put into that chance varies from 1-3. I smell something very stinky about this.. And in case DP is too strong for Holy, Prot and Ret are also nerfed and vice versa.

    I just hate abilities that will most likely get nerfed in the process of tier-advancement. HATE THEM.
    Last edited by JayJay09; 2012-08-08 at 05:34 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    I believe that using HoPo abilities by spending only one Holy Power (Inq, Wog) may also proc Divine Purpose.
    Confirmed as of last build, will test in next.

  14. #54
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by narzhul View Post
    What malthanis said,

    Some people have to calm down a bit and wait for time to pass. You can all assume what you want, yet we have another (possible month and a half) to go until the ultimate release. And if it turns out that you're class is utterly useless; changes will be made
    played a ret myself over Wrath and Early Cata and tbh, rets right now are fine. If played right (yes it's different as before) you can pull some crazy out of control numbers, same as every other class. It's a new expansion, don't be frightened, and seriously, don't go crazy over somethings thats most likely temporary. Look at how they changed your class in the previous builds. Time for some to see the big picture. It's not because this build gives you a 15% decrease that the fictional 40% buff you had 5 builds ago is nullified. No, you're getting a 40% buff on an ability, Which would be at 140% (lets assume this) Take the build now, oh 15% off, well still a 25% increase over what it was.

    Hold your horses until the last and final patchnotes are there, if you don't like it, go do some mathematics and see how well rets are actually doing
    besides, parses don't tell you nothing. Have a look at boomkins, parses say you're screwed, yet they have proven to be most powerful when played correctly over the last 3 patches.

    Be optimistic, see the big picture, relax
    Yes I'm calm don't get me wrong I'm not upset or anything like that yet since it's still beta. However, I just don't want to have the same experience as in Cata once again or something similar to it..because I only play ret for pve and pvp and the constant changes for Ret in Cata was so much to the point it's not even funny (not talking about vanill ret because it was barely existed or TBC or Wotlk I'm talking here about the Cataclysm ret). For example, you remember how constant changes we got in each of cata patch right? first WoG was instant, then 4.1 it became 20 secs cd for ret, then the next patch they changed selfless healer talent and WoG became 10 secs cd and so on and so on. It's not about buffs or nerfs it's just a lot of people are just annoyed and pissed by the Ret constant changes because it's one of the specs that got changes the most in almost every patch in the expansions.

  15. #55
    Yeah, I'm not too nervous just yet, but the change to Avenger makes it mandatory. It already was, more or less, since Zealotry was so important to our overall damage, but this clinches it. The worst is when a fight ends just before your CDs come back up. It just kills your overall ranking. A smoother curve would make Ret a much better class that would represent well on the meters consistently but that completely kill its PvP design style.

    At least the cool-down timers are all staggered here (I think it's 5 mins on GoAK, 3 mins on Wrath, 2 mins on Avenger, 1 min on Execution) so maybe we'll have at least a CD up per minute. We'd be sacrificing lineups, but maybe they're balancing us around using the CDs more or less as they come up...?

    I don't know. It's really hard to tell right now where we'll land.

  16. #56
    Looks like to me they thought our overall sustained dps was too much and of course that our HP generators were better then TV so they nerfed them and TV was buffed.
    Last edited by Landin55; 2012-08-08 at 06:25 PM.
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  17. #57
    If they really nerfed Hammer of Wrath because Sanctified Wrath would be perceived as "too good" with 4-piece, what is the damn point of having the 4-piece then? Seriously... Holy Avenger looks too good right now.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 01:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    Looks like to me they thought our overall sustained dps was too much and of course that our HP generators were better then TV so they nerfed them and TV was buffed.
    TV was nerfed, not buffed. +20% weapon damage with a ~8-9% overall weapon damage nerf = nerf.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    If they really nerfed Hammer of Wrath because Sanctified Wrath would be perceived as "too good" with 4-piece, what is the damn point of having the 4-piece then? Seriously... Holy Avenger looks too good right now.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 01:59 PM ----------


    TV was nerfed, not buffed. +20% weapon damage with a ~8-9% overall weapon damage nerf = nerf.
    That four piece needs to go, or somehow affect Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger, it was a very bad idea to begin with since it clearly made one talent almost mandatory.

    Overall, yeah, the nerfs suck, but they don't worry me as much as Cata did. What broke us in Cata was horrific ramp-up time and inability to switch targets effectively, all while in a tier that was very melee unfriendly to begin with. Mechanically, we don't have those same problems to the same extent since they fixed Censure+Judgement and we have much more flexible dps options via a the new talent system, so I'm not too worried about such across-the-board damage nerfs, since plain damage can be tweaked easily, it's crappy mechanics that are scary since they are hard to fix.

    Also, Ghostcrawler said that pretty much every spec that was not nerfed this build, was getting it's damage pass right now, so we can expect a large number of specs to be nerfed next build.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2012-08-08 at 07:24 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    That four piece needs to go, or somehow affect Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger, it was a very bad idea to begin with since it clearly made one talent almost mandatory.

    Overall, yeah, the nerfs suck, but they don't worry me as much as Cata did. What broke us in Cata was horrific ramp-up time and inability to switch targets effectively, all while in a tier that was very melee unfriendly to begin with. Mechanically, we don't have those same problems to the same extent since they fixed Censure+Judgement and we have much more flexible dps options via a the new talent system, so I'm not too worried about such across-the-board damage nerfs, since plain damage can be tweaked easily, it's crappy mechanics that are scary since they are hard to fix.

    Also, Ghostcrawler said that pretty much every spec that was not nerfed this build, was getting it's damage pass right now, so we can expect a large number of specs to be nerfed next build.
    T14 aint exactly melee-friendly either. :P
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  20. #60
    Blademaster Zole_Zole_Zole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    What I'm really suprised about is the Divine purpose buff..I mean buffing something that most of Ret paladins if not all of them hate it...

    I mean most of ret players already got sick of RNG procs in our dmg and rotation such as divine purpose.
    That's a huge assumption there on your part. I really enjoy this ability, it adds flavour to my otherwise dull rotation. I am sad that i have to choose it as a talent instead of having it as baseline.

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