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  1. #41
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    Everyone talks about homogenization / cookie cutter of the classes, specs and the talents when in some respect it has always been like that, but just in the guise of choice. Consider that in all this time you always tended to follow the most optimum talent set that at the time did the most damage for that spec. And to that end you were no different to others of your class and spec and what did make you different from others was how you played the class and your gearing and everything else.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    Everyone talks about homogenization / cookie cutter of the classes, specs and the talents when in some respect it has always been like that, but just in the guise of choice. Consider that in all this time you always tended to follow the most optimum talent set that at the time did the most damage for that spec. And to that end you were no different to others of your class and spec and what did make you different from others was how you played the class and your gearing and everything else.
    +1
    ppl like to have the freedom of choice so they can all choose the same ....Then it's all good...

  3. #43
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    Lol at Mages whining about their class, a big fat lol.

    You're by far the most overpowered class ingame, and you keep getting buff after buff after buff. The list goes on..

    You have NO counters, you can obliterate ANYTHING in a five mile radius. You're Blizzards puppet class and will never ever beyond eternity be nerfed.

    If you only knew what us Warriors has to endure fighting a Mage perhaps you would stop whining and try to improve yourself. Bring the player, not the class.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Persian View Post
    Lol at Mages whining about their class, a big fat lol.

    You're by far the most overpowered class ingame, and you keep getting buff after buff after buff. The list goes on..

    You have NO counters, you can obliterate ANYTHING in a five mile radius. You're Blizzards puppet class and will never ever beyond eternity be nerfed.

    If you only knew what us Warriors has to endure fighting a Mage perhaps you would stop whining and try to improve yourself. Bring the player, not the class.
    This thread is not abt character power.. and seriously unless you fight a fire mage as a warrior, you have a fighting chance against it

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    Everyone talks about homogenization / cookie cutter of the classes, specs and the talents when in some respect it has always been like that, but just in the guise of choice. Consider that in all this time you always tended to follow the most optimum talent set that at the time did the most damage for that spec. And to that end you were no different to others of your class and spec and what did make you different from others was how you played the class and your gearing and everything else.
    No - the new talent system is a big improvement over cookie cutter - it'll allow you to pick different talents on a fight by fight basis to min/max, rather than just choosing the same talents based on spec that you never changed.

    It is not a big improvement with regard to homogenization, because the new talent system allows any spec access to tools that made a specific spec distinctive. I feel that the result doesn't feel like a hybrid spec (which is what I think some players from Vanilla wanted), but rather a mish-mash without any synergy between the spells from the different trees. If you didn't care for the hybrid spec concept, you can still spec say all Frost talents or all Fire talents, but the specs themselves have been watered down a bit to accommodate them all having DoTs and needing to do less burst damage, so none end up with the strong identity they had in Cata.

    That isn't a flaw in the concept of this talent system, just in choices Blizzard have made for the talents themselves in my opinion.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Persian View Post
    Lol at Mages whining about their class, a big fat lol.

    You're by far the most overpowered class ingame, and you keep getting buff after buff after buff. The list goes on..

    You have NO counters, you can obliterate ANYTHING in a five mile radius. You're Blizzards puppet class and will never ever beyond eternity be nerfed.

    If you only knew what us Warriors has to endure fighting a Mage perhaps you would stop whining and try to improve yourself. Bring the player, not the class.
    You're funny, now go play with your toys

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Persian View Post
    Lol at Mages whining about their class, a big fat lol.

    You're by far the most overpowered class ingame, and you keep getting buff after buff after buff. The list goes on..

    You have NO counters, you can obliterate ANYTHING in a five mile radius. You're Blizzards puppet class and will never ever beyond eternity be nerfed.

    If you only knew what us Warriors has to endure fighting a Mage perhaps you would stop whining and try to improve yourself. Bring the player, not the class.
    how do you miss the point of a thread so cleanly?

    that's an art, bro.

    as or people hating on Lhiv for the current design, you should stfu. Lhiv has done a ton for mages over the last 2-3 xpacs. he's not a dev, and he didn't do this to the class.
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2012-08-18 at 08:16 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  8. #48
    so sorry guys if it's a bit off-topic, i've been playing resto druid in Cata because of my guild's needings, but i am still loving my dear mage; so far i had no time to play beta MoP or read anything about new mage's design , and i'm having hard time trying to be ready to play my mage in MoP ... so far, what i understood is that i will have to re-learn everything about mages, and i really don't like what they did to my preferred pve spec: fire ... Do you think there are rooms for that to be changed? I am talking about fire AoE for example. Did somebody made blueposts about all of that? if yes, what do devs answered? i didnt found any of them, but make in count i couldn't read much, coz i had no time. thank you for your attention

  9. #49
    Maybe the question isn't why, maybe it's whether it's a good thing. Well is it or not?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by s0fist View Post
    Maybe the question isn't why, maybe it's whether it's a good thing. Well is it or not?
    I don't think you will find even a single person who thinks homogenization of specs is a good thing.

    What makes it worse for mages, is that they are a "pure" class.

    They cannot serve any role outside of DPS, that even ranged DPS. Because of this, it is of extreme importance that the pure specs be the ones that must have different playstyles and mechanics, to make the class as a whole interesting.

    Take a look at druids for example. A druid player has access to 4 completely unique playstyles and mechanics within a single class. If a balance druid ever gets bored of balance, he can easily switch to feral and get a whole new DPS experience. (the experience is a key point)

    Mages cannot do this. Currently, at best, they can only pick what color their spells will be. This is an unacceptable state of affairs, and actually a step backwards from Cataclysm (where at least the specs had some gameplay identity). Now its like everyone (except Frostmages, who have not only their elemental but frost orb) are playing nerfed versions of Frost's "proc based" gameplay.

    What makes matters worse, is when you look deeper into relative spec design.
    Again, just as an example, lets compare the entire mage class to balance druids (another ranged caster DPS). The sheer number of interesting mechanics, toys and abilities that the single balance spec has outweighs what the entire mage class. Balance druids are amazingly more 'fun' and varied than all 3 mage specs. This is what makes the situation that much harder to swallow for mages.

    Now sure, you can say "well if you love spec/class X so much just reroll". And sure, many many will, but that is beside the point.

    The goal of good game design is not to just abandon the parts of the game that do not work, but instead, find out why they aren't working and fix them. Unfortunately, many people (including mages themselves) do not care about that bigger picture (just take a look at the "Has Arcane been abandoned in MoP" thread in this very forum). The rest of the mages on the beta (and the blizzard appointed mage community MVP in particular) just do not care about the gameplay or mechanics of all the mage specs, but instead, just care about the mechanics and playstyle of their particular spec of choice (in this case, frost), and because of this, don't even bother to give feedback on the other specs.
    Whats worse, is that when someone does come along to give feedback on the other specs, the frost mages just 'shout them down' since they wish to lobby for more buffs to their spec.

    Its a sad sad state of affairs, and no one seems to know how to break the cycle. Some hypothesize that it just cannot be fixed.


    I, for one, have absolutely no doubt that Arcane, as an entire spec, in both PvE and PvP is going to end up in the toilet throughout the entire MoP expansion. You can bookmark this post, screenshot it if you wish, but you will see that that statement of mine will stand the test of time.
    No one will play it (its totally broken and boring in the beta, which is why no one is actually playing it there). But instead of helping fix the issue, mages (like the MVP) will just shove simulationcraft numbers down the throats of everyone who bring up the point that its not because of the "numbers" that no one likes/plays Arcane, but its because the spec itself is just so effing one-dimensional and boring.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    I don't think you will find even a single person who thinks homogenization of specs is a good thing.

    What makes it worse for mages, is that they are a "pure" class.

    They cannot serve any role outside of DPS, that even ranged DPS. Because of this, it is of extreme importance that the pure specs be the ones that must have different playstyles and mechanics, to make the class as a whole interesting.

    Take a look at druids for example. A druid player has access to 4 completely unique playstyles and mechanics within a single class. If a balance druid ever gets bored of balance, he can easily switch to feral and get a whole new DPS experience. (the experience is a key point)

    Mages cannot do this. Currently, at best, they can only pick what color their spells will be. This is an unacceptable state of affairs, and actually a step backwards from Cataclysm (where at least the specs had some gameplay identity). Now its like everyone (except Frostmages, who have not only their elemental but frost orb) are playing nerfed versions of Frost's "proc based" gameplay.

    What makes matters worse, is when you look deeper into relative spec design.
    Again, just as an example, lets compare the entire mage class to balance druids (another ranged caster DPS). The sheer number of interesting mechanics, toys and abilities that the single balance spec has outweighs what the entire mage class. Balance druids are amazingly more 'fun' and varied than all 3 mage specs. This is what makes the situation that much harder to swallow for mages.

    Now sure, you can say "well if you love spec/class X so much just reroll". And sure, many many will, but that is beside the point.

    The goal of good game design is not to just abandon the parts of the game that do not work, but instead, find out why they aren't working and fix them. Unfortunately, many people (including mages themselves) do not care about that bigger picture (just take a look at the "Has Arcane been abandoned in MoP" thread in this very forum). The rest of the mages on the beta (and the blizzard appointed mage community MVP in particular) just do not care about the gameplay or mechanics of all the mage specs, but instead, just care about the mechanics and playstyle of their particular spec of choice (in this case, frost), and because of this, don't even bother to give feedback on the other specs.
    Whats worse, is that when someone does come along to give feedback on the other specs, the frost mages just 'shout them down' since they wish to lobby for more buffs to their spec.

    Its a sad sad state of affairs, and no one seems to know how to break the cycle. Some hypothesize that it just cannot be fixed.


    I, for one, have absolutely no doubt that Arcane, as an entire spec, in both PvE and PvP is going to end up in the toilet throughout the entire MoP expansion. You can bookmark this post, screenshot it if you wish, but you will see that that statement of mine will stand the test of time.
    No one will play it (its totally broken and boring in the beta, which is why no one is actually playing it there). But instead of helping fix the issue, mages (like the MVP) will just shove simulationcraft numbers down the throats of everyone who bring up the point that its not because of the "numbers" that no one likes/plays Arcane, but its because the spec itself is just so effing one-dimensional and boring.
    So very true! Mages in MoP are just very bland and unappealing in almost every aspect. I have played my mage since Vanilla and not questioned rerolling until now. I love my mage, it makes me sad that a select few are making their own toy puppet, while the majority are getting ignored. I hope you posted this on the WoW Beta forums as well.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomAgony View Post
    I hope you posted this on the WoW Beta forums as well.
    Oh many of us tried my friend. The vast majority of mages (esp in the beta) share your viewpoint.

    But as soon as they post about it, the MVP comes in and spams the thread with simulationcraft numbers, making it almost impossible to actually talk about 'gameplay' issues without having a thread derailed into "numerical viability". Blizzard see this and think everything is ok.

    Basically, at this point, unless you are a mage with green text, Blizz isn't really going to care about what you are saying or thinking.

    As I mentioned either earlier in this thread or perhaps in another one, we really need to figure out why this has happened, so that we can prevent it happening again.

  13. #53
    hmm hopefully they change it

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Oh many of us tried my friend. The vast majority of mages (esp in the beta) share your viewpoint.

    But as soon as they post about it, the MVP comes in and spams the thread with simulationcraft numbers, making it almost impossible to actually talk about 'gameplay' issues without having a thread derailed into "numerical viability". Blizzard see this and think everything is ok.

    Basically, at this point, unless you are a mage with green text, Blizz isn't really going to care about what you are saying or thinking.

    As I mentioned either earlier in this thread or perhaps in another one, we really need to figure out why this has happened, so that we can prevent it happening again.
    Aye. I along with many others have been posting about the lack of Mount collection achievements until we are blue in the face, and it goes unanswered basically since LK came out. But the Blue's/CM's instead take their time to post on threads like bringing onyxia back, or other troll threads. The way it feels right now is the Majority of the community is launching themselves out of a catapult and just splatting against the wall of Castle Blizzard just hoping the crack the wall to get their input it. But its just not cutting it.
    Last edited by PhantomAgony; 2012-08-20 at 11:58 PM. Reason: grammar fail *2

  15. #55
    The rest of the mages on the beta (and the blizzard appointed mage community MVP in particular) just do not care about the gameplay or mechanics of all the mage specs, but instead, just care about the mechanics and playstyle of their particular spec of choice (in this case, frost), and because of this, don't even bother to give feedback on the other specs.
    Whats worse, is that when someone does come along to give feedback on the other specs, the frost mages just 'shout them down' since they wish to lobby for more buffs to their spec.
    So the following is a perfect example of this phenomena that I was mentioning in my previous post.


    Take a look at this thread on Mage Feedback on the beta:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...227?page=9#179

    That is a direct link to Mivva's post that he made 2hrs before this one. (Remember, just two hours).
    For those of you who do not know, Mivva is one of the very few mages with actual, first hand raiding experience in MoP. He is a proper raider with massive amounts of experience behind him and had been providing feedback on Mages in raids throughout beta.

    Needless to say, his feedback should carry a veritable metric ton of weight.

    And what is that feedback? Lets take a look:

    As for Arcane: I'm also not finding very much interest in the new changes :/ But I think it's mostly because I find Frost more satisfying (and more flexible) in gameplay.
    He openly states Arcane is boring, plus, he states that he prefers Frost mainly because it is 'not boring' and more flexible.
    But he doesn't stop there.

    The devs said they designed the 3 last talents based on changing Arcane's rotation, but it just does not appeal to me because the talents come across as 3 different ways to restrict Arcane
    Emphasis his. But we already know this too (I have posted about the level 90 talents actually being a 'nerf' to arcane gameplay for a while now). But lets keep going.

    And the rotation change themselves just seem 1-dimensional at best. That's less interesting to me than Cata and with hindering restrictions on all 3 to boot.
    So we have clear as day feedback from a completely active, raiding mage that Arcane is pretty much DOA in MoP. Feedback that is being echoed by pretty much everyone else who has played the spec in Beta in any real capacity.


    But its what happens immediately next that is the most fascinating part of this entire story. Mainly because Lhivera (the mage MVP) basically walks into the thread within 1hr of Mivva's feedback and just blatantly, outright tells him that he is wrong.

    I'd say that Arcane has the edge in encounters that demand controlled burst
    An Arcane Mage with Scorch, Blazing Speed, and Incanter's Ward is going to be more mobile than a Fire Mage with Presence of Mind, Temporal Shield, and Rune of Power.
    Take note, Lhivera has absolutely no raiding experience with Arcane (or any other mage spec for that matter) in the beta. In fact, he has openly stated that he hasn't even played the spec in any given shape or form.

    Yet he feels confident in coming into the thread and completely negating feedback from a mage who has openly demonstrated his experience in raiding (with not only logs, but vids and parses and screenshots).

    According to the MVP, Arcane is perfectly fine.

    And who does Blizz listen to? Well, the MVP of course (after all, they picked him).


    And that folks, is just one of many, MANY examples all over the beta forums of why, imho, the mage class is going down the drain in MoP.

    When active, knowledgeable players with first hand experience are ignored, and inexperienced, louder ones are listened to, what else do you expect to happen?

  16. #56
    are the Sim's the only reason Lhivera is the MVP? Ive looked at his mage, and it barely even looks like an alt.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomAgony View Post
    are the Sim's the only reason Lhivera is the MVP? Ive looked at his mage, and it barely even looks like an alt.
    The thing is, he doesn't even make the sim, that is done through the hard work of the dev team for simulationcraft. (who are the real heroes imho).

    He just posts the numbers from the sim's results everywhere.

    But yea, apart from that and being well known as being a hardcore frost mage fanatic, thats pretty much it.

    Oh, and the fact that he pretty much spends ~100% of his time on the WoW forums, i.e. he is super active.

    But he doesn't raid or pvp, he is an "RP" player.

    Back at the beginning of the beta, when people were trying to discuss spec mechanics, he kept spamming the discussions with the fact that he wanted the mage talents to be "more RP friendly".
    It was because of him almost all mage tiers have a fire/arcane/frost option as a talent, because he wanted to play his mage as a 'pure frost mage' who 'doesnt cast non-frost spells'.

    So while the rest of the classes were discussing important issues like how to actually improve gameplay for their class/specs, mages were locked in a massive forum spam battle with him, where they were trying to convince him (and blizz) that the color of the icons for the spells are not as important as the mechanics of the specs. But the only mechanics he wanted to talk about were frost.


    One thing that he does do, however, is defend blizzard very very well (again, when you spend that much time on the forums, its easy to spam). I think that is prob why they made him an MVP. Take a look at the mage level 90 talent feedback thread. Every single mage in that thread is talking about how bad the level 90 talents are. He is the only one defending blizz's decision.

    And guess what? The talents are still in the game.

  18. #58
    very unfortunate that blizz is tuning out players with actual valuable feedback

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    The thing is, he doesn't even make the sim, that is done through the hard work of the dev team for simulationcraft. (who are the real heroes imho).

    He just posts the numbers from the sim's results everywhere.

    But yea, apart from that and being well known as being a hardcore frost mage fanatic, thats pretty much it.

    Oh, and the fact that he pretty much spends ~100% of his time on the WoW forums, i.e. he is super active.

    But he doesn't raid or pvp, he is an "RP" player.

    Back at the beginning of the beta, when people were trying to discuss spec mechanics, he kept spamming the discussions with the fact that he wanted the mage talents to be "more RP friendly".
    It was because of him almost all mage tiers have a fire/arcane/frost option as a talent, because he wanted to play his mage as a 'pure frost mage' who 'doesnt cast non-frost spells'.

    So while the rest of the classes were discussing important issues like how to actually improve gameplay for their class/specs, mages were locked in a massive forum spam battle with him, where they were trying to convince him (and blizz) that the color of the icons for the spells are not as important as the mechanics of the specs. But the only mechanics he wanted to talk about were frost.


    One thing that he does do, however, is defend blizzard very very well (again, when you spend that much time on the forums, its easy to spam). I think that is prob why they made him an MVP. Take a look at the mage level 90 talent feedback thread. Every single mage in that thread is talking about how bad the level 90 talents are. He is the only one defending blizz's decision.

    And guess what? The talents are still in the game.
    So Blizzard values the opinion of one person who doesn't play, over the opinions of many?
    ...? what.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Franksredhot View Post
    So Blizzard values the opinion of one person who doesn't play, over the opinions of many?
    ...? what.
    That seems to be the way things have been going as of late unfortunately. A vast majority of the playerbase has fallen on deaf ears.

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