MoP Holy: Level 75 & 90 Talents

[Pasture]

Just interested to get some discussion going on the final two tiers for Holy. These two tiers are the tiers we will likely be switching in and out on a fight by fight basis so it is important to pin down their niche. What it is they do well and in what sort of encounter we should be using them.

Level 75 Talents

Holy Avenger

Abilities that generate HP will generate 3HP and heal for 15 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. This is a talent that is going to become more and more attractive as gear levels rise. The key to maximising use of this talent is to ensure you're using a HP generator every other spell. This will become easier the more regen you have. The more haste you have the more you can fit into this 15 second window.

Stacked AoE:

This talent choice will shine best in a stacked AoE situation, essentially serving as a moderate AoE healing cooldown. The stacked rotation: HR > LoD > HS > LoD > HR > LoD> HR > LoD > HS > LOD. HR gets +30% heal then into a full LoD to burn off the HP. HS straight after for the HS splash with +30% heal then again with the LoD to burn off the HP. HS will skip the next rotation due to the 6 second cooldown. Always HR > LoD > HS rather than HR > HS > LoD to ensure you're not wasting free HP. Great for any healing intensive stacked fight, ala Ultraxion, Deathwing limb stacks etc.

Spread AoE:

Much less effective at this, but the priority will be to get off a HP generator, ie HS or beacon heal, and the follow up with a LoD. Essentially you can throw out a LoD every couple of seconds for 15 seconds. Not ideal, but spread healing is not our forte. The other alternative is to roll out EF if you've specced it.

Single Target:

HS and beacon heal for quick WoG. Does a beacon heal get the 30% healing bonus or is it technically Tower of Radiance that is the HP generator and not the heal itself. If it is ToR this will be significantly weaker than the boost AoE healing gets. If it is the heals itself this will be an excellent single target throughput talent.

Santified Wrath

AW lasts 30 seconds and the cooldown on HS is reduced to 3 seconds (2.5 with 4 set). Bit of an odd one imo as it changes AW from a throughput cooldown into a regen cooldown. More HS = more efficiency and more LoD / WoG and you will want to be using HS on cooldown to benefit most from the talent, which is really a hit on throughput. If I'm after a regen option, however, then surely Divine Purpose is the better option? Open to suggestions as to the niche for this talent for Holy.

Divine Purpose

Essentially HP spells have a 25% chance to give you another 3HP spell for free. This is largely an efficiency talent that, like Holy Avenger, scales well with gear. The more regen you have the more you will be casting beacon heals and HR and the more you will be using HP abilities. It also serves well for some burst healing, thought obviously this will be entirely random. Being able to throw out two LoD or EF in quick succession is very nice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Holy Avenger, for me, is the progress talent. The talent you pick up when you're learning an encounter. It also seems very strong for stacked AoE situations. The +30% healing has essentially turned it into a more powerful AW on a shorter cooldown, albeit with a shorter duration. If beacon heals benefit from the +30% healer rather than ToR being considered the generator it will also be a powerful tank cooldown. Divine Purpose seems like the talent you go for when you're comfortable with a fight. Sit back, relax, and take advantage of the free heals and regen. The randomness will make it less attractive for progress. Sanctified Wrath I just can't really find a niche for with Holy. The only time I'd really want it would be for Holy dps on Spine of Deathwing etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------



Level 90 Talents

Holy Prism

The burst AoE heal and with a 20 second cooldown it is the most responsive and reactive in this tier. It does, however, require enough people stacked around a mob to make it useful. It could find a niche on fights like Blackhorn, bouncing it off the adds during purple void stacks and off the boss in the final phase after he roars. Equally, could be used on Morchok post stomp or any longer cooldown AoE damage.

It's probably stronger in 10 man than 25 since it is target limited, but in 10 this amounts to half the raid compared to 1/5th of the raid in 25.

Light's Hammer.

Probably the better choice for any more consistent AoE damage. Ultraxion or Deathwing burn phases seem like good examples of where it would get good use.

Stay of Execution

Despite the recent very generous buffs the nature of this talent still makes it weak. It's essentially lifebloom, but without the ability to roll and avoid the bloom, which is going to result in a lot of wasted healing on 'bloom'. It strikes me that you will choose this talent when the other options just aren't viable for the fight. Something like Shannox in 10 man.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It seems like you will choose between Light's Hammer and Holy Prism based on the nature of the fight. Burst AoE or mobile AoE will favour Holy Prism. Light's Hammer will favour those fights with a more consistent AoE aura. Stay of Execution will be the talent you choose because the other two don't apply. The mechanics just don't make sense for healing and as such it will only be used as a last resort.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

But anyway, some thoughts from those who have actually done some raid testing would be nice. How have the talents fit into the first tier of raiding in MoP?

[Kerfax]

As far as the level 75 talents go I prefer Holy Avenger for a few reasons:

First of all, it gives me the ability to pick when I have the bonus. This is nice because I won't have random procs at times when I don't need them. As long as I learn to manage it, all of that healing will be available to me when I need it.

For me another bonus it has is that it is separate of AW. This gives me the ability to use the cooldowns separately and have more cooldowns to use throughout a fight, or to stack the two cooldowns if I think that I need to.

I guess that for me you can sum it up by saying that I want as much choice as possible. I ended up using Holy Avenger for every fight that I tested on Beta and it worked very well.

I will say that Sanctified Wrath has the bonus of working well with our 4 piece, the Glyph of Avenging Wrath, and the Glyph of Illumination though.

For the level 90 talents:

Holy Prism is really powerful because it again gives you a choice in how you want to use it. It can work as a single target heal that is just about as strong as Holy Shock or another burst heal. On most fights it hit enough targets that using it was quite warranted. I think on most fights I will be using this talent because of the short cd and versatility it allows.

I can see Light's Hammer being useful on a fight like Will of the Emperor because of the sustained AoE damage, but that fight also has a lot of spreading out. If there is a fight like Ultraxion, this spell will definitely shine. For now I havent found a fight where I can work it in though.

SoE was seems so weak that I never even tried it to be honest. Our single target healing is already very strong. If there is a fight with absolutely no AoE damage, I will give it a shot. Until then, I prefer the other two by leaps and bounds.

[doraymon]

Lv75 - divine purpose - free heal no mana needed
Lv95 - Light hammer - because.. It.. Look.. So.. COOOOOOL

[Pasture]

SoE was seems so weak that I never even tried it to be honest. Our single target healing is already very strong. If there is a fight with absolutely no AoE damage, I will give it a shot. Until then, I prefer the other two by leaps and bounds.

What would it take to make SoE desirable? They already pretty much doubled the healing and still no one is interested. Would it make a difference if the hammer came straight down for a big burst heal and then tailed off with the hot portion, essentially working in reverse to how it does now? Or as a single target heal is the cooldown just too long? Does it need some small AoE benefit to compete with the other two?

[Kerfax]

What would it take to make SoE desirable? They already pretty much doubled the healing and still no one is interested. Would it make a difference if the hammer came straight down for a big burst heal and then tailed off with the hot portion, essentially working in reverse to how it does now? Or as a single target heal is the cooldown just too long? Does it need some small AoE benefit to compete with the other two?

I honestly think that it would need a splash type effect to make it desirable. Its not a bad heal in any way, the problem is that we're already close, if not the actual, strongest single target healers. Especially now that our Mastery is so high, I don't think we have much trouble healing through single target damage. What our toolbox currently lacks on Beta is AoE healing potency, and the other two talents give that to us.

[Tomana]

My 2 cents:

The problem with Holy avenger and holy is the lack of HP generators. Because you only have HS and DL on beacon as generators, you won't be able to generate a lot of HP during it (unless you spam DL on tank ofc, but that leads to a mana loss which is kinda not the point of Holy avenger). Holy avenger is AMAZING in Prot, because you have 3 ways of generating hopo, hence turning it into an almost-perma SoTR buff, but for Holy, I'm less sure.

On the other hand, sanctified wrath gives you +10 seconds on wings and a 3 seconds Holy shock, which effectively doubles HP generation for a duration which is also the double of Holy avenger. DP is way too RNG in my opinion.

On the prism vs hammer, it entirely depends on the encounter and your raid size. If the raid is stacked, then Light's hammer can be used in those "omg AOE" moments, since Holy radiance is quite expensive now. Prism, on the other hand, requires 5 allies to be in boss's range (which usually means 25-man), and has weird targeting which screws up macros. On the other hand, it heals for almost as much as a Divine Light for 1/5th of its mana cost, so even as an emergency short CD on tank, it is interesting.

---------- Post added 2012-08-12 at 01:23 AM ----------

I will say that Sanctified Wrath has the bonus of working well with our 4 piece, the Glyph of Avenging Wrath, and the Glyph of Illumination though.

According to the maths @EJ.com, Glyph of Illumination sucks.

[Stevemcqeen]

My 2 cents:

The problem with Holy avenger and holy is the lack of HP generators. Because you only have HS and DL on beacon as generators, you won't be able to generate a lot of HP during it (unless you spam DL on tank ofc, but that leads to a mana loss which is kinda not the point of Holy avenger). Holy avenger is AMAZING in Prot, because you have 3 ways of generating hopo, hence turning it into an almost-perma SoTR buff, but for Holy, I'm less sure.

Crusader strike says HELLO. Really though under Holy Avenger try using CS -> HS -> maybe DL on tank or HR, you get a really high amount of healing

On the prism vs hammer, it entirely depends on the encounter and your raid size.

agreed

According to the maths @EJ.com, Glyph of Illumination sucks.

link to that please?

[Tomana]

Crusader strike says HELLO. Really though under Holy Avenger try using CS -> HS -> maybe DL on tank or HR, you get a really high amount of healing

And if I use AW and get a 3 sec holy shock, I get a really high amount of healing too. For a longer duration.
Also, using CS is by definition a gimpy mechanic I rather not rely on. Plus, you cannot always be in range of the boss.
I'm not saying holy avenger is useless, but it is more situational than Sanctified wrath right now.

link to that please?

http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t126896-...9/#post2171756

[Pasture]

I'm not saying holy avenger is useless, but it is more situational than Sanctified wrath right now.

The only situational requirement for Holy Avenger, really, is having enough mana / regen to take maximum benefit from it. Rightly you point out you can't always CS the boss, but we can always HS, DL/FL the beacon or use HR. The constraint is really mana. For that reason the talent is going to scale so much better than Sanctified Wrath, which I just can't see competing later on.

In any AoE healing situation in particular Holy Avenger is going to win out by a mile. +30% healing to HR and HS splash is huge.

My problem with Sanctified Wrath is it turns a throughput cooldown into a conservation cooldown. It's a bit confused. Particularly toward end game the reason you will be using Avenging Wrath is because you need the extra healing. You're not going to be wanting to hit HS every 3 seconds if your job is to put out as much healing as possible. For me it muddies the role of Avenging Wrath.

[Tomana]

The only situational requirement for Holy Avenger, really, is having enough mana / regen to take maximum benefit from it. Rightly you point out you can't always CS the boss, but we can always HS, DL/FL the beacon or use HR. The constraint is really mana. For that reason the talent is going to scale so much better than Sanctified Wrath, which I just can't see competing later on.

Later on, I agree. At the beginning, it's another story. Sure, when you'll get full ilvl (whatever ilevel normal Heart of Fear is) epics, a lot of things will have to be reconsidered. But right now, a HR makes a considerable dent in your mana pool, so I'm cautious using it just for HoPo generation. Mana bar goes way too fast for that. Obviously, if you have 3 mana tide totems, it's a different story

In any AoE healing situation in particular Holy Avenger is going to win out by a mile. +30% healing to HR and HS splash is huge.

HR is by definition fight dependent (I guess that from this PoV, DS gave bad habits to a lot of paladins ) so we're back into situational discussion. I may also conjecture that in a 25-man raid as it stands, trees are going be so OP in AOE healing that we will rather spot heal or tank heal again, at least for the first few weeks.

My problem with Sanctified Wrath is it turns a throughput cooldown into a conservation cooldown. It's a bit confused. Particularly toward end game the reason you will be using Avenging Wrath is because you need the extra healing. You're not going to be wanting to hit HS every 3 seconds if your job is to put out as much healing as possible.

I'm not sure about that, since HS crits proc IoL, which allows your DLs to be pumped out much faster. But I agree the whole thing needs to be simmed before making choices.

[Kerfax]

I'm going to add to the discussion on the three points you guys are discussing but don't feel like quoting (Lazy morning is lazy):

Holy Avenger does in my mind feel slightly situational. It does work much better in AoE situations, especially if you can cast HR through its duration. At low levels I think that it also becomes a conservation cd though. I doubt that someone using that talent would use DL/FoL/HR everytime it was up to get HP, so people using it will end up using CS to gain the HP for finishers. It may be a weird mechanic, but I think its an advantage that we need to make use of if necessary.

I agree with Tomana here. Since I only started playing Holy Pally recently, I don't really spam HR and instead try to spot heal. Going into the Beta this was extremely useful, but I think that for others it will be a bit rough to get used to not spamming that button every chance they get.

While SW does help with longetivity, it isn't in any way made into a conservation ability. If you have the mana regen to cast DLs the whole time the cd is up, no one is going to force you to hit HS every 3 seconds. If anything the shortened cd just gives us the ability to use it as more than it was intended, which is amazing in my book.