Swtor on CNN Money

[Redblade]

Yes I'm sure a lot of people buy 1 minutes of gametime, get real please.

No they buy, as seen above, 60 hours worth of time, they only have to use 1 minute over X time to count as a "subscriber".

I don't see what's wrong with saying "We currently have 10m players" as if there needs to be an asterisk breaking it down further because some people in the west put less value on the people who pay different in the east. Just because the pay system is different in different parts of the world doesn't necessarily mean you value X player over X player. They are each paying the equivalent "price" based on their region(s).

It's nothing wrong with saying it, however if you are comparing games and/or payment methods it does make a huge difference, as you can see by the answer above.

[Sills]

That was quite a good read. I hope that the F2P works out for TOR as a lot of time and effort went into designing it and it isnt a terrible game. The main problem was summarized at the end of the article imo:

Also, free-to-play doesn't address another major problem in the MMO genre: saturation.

There are dozens of games available now, many with similar fantasy or role-playing themes. All of them vying for the same limited amount of time a player has each week.

There are so many MMOs and the game play is essentially the same: press button, make thing happen. This plus the grindy aspect (no matter how you dress it up, kill 10 of this and 10 of that can get dull through 5 different games).

[alturic]

No they buy, as seen above, 60 hours worth of time, they only have to use 1 minute over X time to count as a "subscriber".



It's nothing wrong with saying it, however if you are comparing games and/or payment methods it does make a huge difference, as you can see by the answer above.

1.) What's wrong with counting 1 minute of time used as a "subscriber", you are thinking in terms of play-time and not "time purchased". I can buy 30, 60, 90 day game-time cards and never login but I'm still counted (just like in ANY game) as a subscriber.

2.) There's nothing "different" about comparing games/payment methods. If a game has more subscribers over another, it has more subscribers over another, regardless of where those subscribers are.

---------- Post added 2012-08-11 at 12:07 PM ----------

That was quite a good read. I hope that the F2P works out for TOR as a lot of time and effort went into designing it and it isnt a terrible game. The main problem was summarized at the end of the article imo:



There are so many MMOs and the game play is essentially the same: press button, make thing happen. This plus the grindy aspect (no matter how you dress it up, kill 10 of this and 10 of that can get dull through 5 different games).

You know, I am some-what beginning to agree with that statement, I have 7 years invested in WoW since launch, it would certainly take an extremely good game to take me away from WoW. That's the point I can't really agree with the statement though. Sure, I have a lot of time "invested" in WoW but at the end of the day when I compare another MMO to WoW I look at end-game. Sadly, at least for me, there just hasn't been a MMO released since WoW that has as good of an end-game (see: raiding system) without Rift coming a close second.

[Redblade]

1.) What's wrong with counting 1 minute of time used as a "subscriber", you are thinking in terms of play-time and not "time purchased". I can buy 30, 60, 90 day game-time cards and never login but I'm still counted (just like in ANY game) as a subscriber.

2.) There's nothing "different" about comparing games/payment methods. If a game has more subscribers over another, it has more subscribers over another, regardless of where those subscribers are.

Chinese players pay by the minute...

[alturic]

Chinese players pay by the minute...

Ok, so let's put it into "apples and apples" arguments and say, we also pay by the minute. If I'm not mistaken MOST of the chinese players use game-time cards, which are 300/600 minute variants for 15/30 chinese "dollars". If ANYTHING, the chinese are paying (if my math is correct, and in relative "dollars" to the US setup) .05/minute. We are paying (let's pretend everyone CAN play 16 hours a day over 30 days) .03/minute.

See what I did there? It's the same thing, minute by minute. Just because it's "billed" as MONTHLY charges in the US doesn't mean at a fundamental level it can't be broken down into minute billing.

I'm actually more curious as to why it's broken down into minute billings (outside of something like "because the majority uses internet cafes") instead of a flat out monthly unlimited billing like the US? Yea, I guess I answered my own question since I'm certain a majority of people use cafes over there, but still.

[Redblade]

Ok, so let's put it into "apples and apples" arguments and say, we also pay by the minute. If I'm not mistaken MOST of the chinese players use game-time cards, which are 300/600 minute variants for 15/30 chinese "dollars". If ANYTHING, the chinese are paying (if my math is correct, and in relative "dollars" to the US setup) .05/minute. We are paying (let's pretend everyone CAN play 16 hours a day over 30 days) .03/minute.

See what I did there? It's the same thing, minute by minute. Just because it's "billed" as MONTHLY charged in the US doesn't mean at a fundamental level it's not billed by minutes.

Well as Iggie said earlier in the thread, 60 hours is around $4 Canadian, as he's the token Chinese guy around here I'll take he's word for it. Now lets translate that to Euro that I normally work with and we come up with according to a exchange site that 12€ is $14.61 Canadian, now lets divide that by 4 which gives us 3.65 and then multiply that with 60 for a total of 219 hours, that's how much time they get for the same amount of money. The difference here is that while we westerners only get 30 days for our 12 Euro the Chinese guy can space he's 219 hours over a month or 12 months, it doesn't matter as long as he logs in X minutes in X days that is defined by Blizzard to be counted as a subscriber.

If you can't see why this makes a huge difference in a comparison by now I really don't know what to say.

[alturic]

Well as Iggie said earlier in the thread, 60 hours is around $4 Canadian, as he's the token Chinese guy around here I'll take he's word for it. Now lets translate that to Euro that I normally work with and we come up with according to a exchange site that 12€ is $14.61 Canadian, now lets divide that by 4 which gives us 3.65 and then multiply that with 60 for a total of 219 hours, that's how much time they get for the same amount of money. The difference here is that while we westerners only get 30 days for our 12 Euro the Chinese guy can space he's 219 hours over a month or 12 months, it doesn't matter as long as he logs in X minutes in X days that is defined by Blizzard to be counted as a subscriber.

If you can't see why this makes a huge difference in a comparison by now I really don't know what to say.

Yea, it doesn't make a huge difference? I don't see what you are trying to "get at". Just because I decided not to cancel my monthly billing but never logon, doesn't mean I'm not a subscriber. Just because he added a card and doesn't logon doesn't mean they aren't a subscriber. You are talking in terms of revenue and why it's "bad" for them to count them as subscribers just because there's active time left in their "pool". It doesn't mean you shouldn't count that as a subscriber though?

Just because X game is released in X country and Y game isn't release in Y country doesn't mean you shouldn't "include" them in the "comparison". Let's just say we want to make it 100% "fair" though, WoW (in the western market) still has almost 5x what any MMORPG has ever had.

[Deleted]

Chinese players pay by the minute...

Aion worked the same, I bought 1 month of game time and could still login after a year of not being inactive

[chop0080]

• Swtor made it on on CNNMoney:
  
  http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/10/tech...lay/index.html
  
  They also mention howmost MMOs now struggle in the sub model with the exception of the Money Machine that is wow.
  
  

I don't like nor care for any f2p games. They're usually bad and under maintained. My only problem if f2p was so overly awesome and sub model wasn't WoW would've died years ago. The argument towards this comment would be "WoW is a better game" and the support for my comment is "WoW is a better game" lol. I personally think swtor would've been great, but they gave up way to early. Its almost like you have a huge urge for Taco bell but because the drive thru was a bit long you went to a burger joint instead and will never know how glorious that taco bell meal might have been.

I heart taco bell.

[Redblade]

It doesn't mean you shouldn't count that as a subscriber though?

Not when doing comparisons no, when you don't play you still pay, when the Chinese guy doesn't play he doesn't pay, the business models are so different that it doesn't make for a good comparison when talking subscribers and/or payment methods.

Just because X game is released in X country and Y game isn't release in Y country doesn't mean you shouldn't "include" them in the "comparison".

Depends what you are comparing, just include them by default skews the comparison in quite a few cases.

Let's just say we want to make it 100% "fair" though, WoW (in the western market) still has almost 5x what any MMORPG has ever had.

Which I never claimed otherwise.

[alturic]

I don't like nor care for any f2p games. They're usually bad and under maintained. My only problem if f2p was so overly awesome and sub model wasn't WoW would've died years ago. The argument towards this comment would be "WoW is a better game" and the support for my comment is "WoW is a better game" lol. I personally think swtor would've been great, but they gave up way to early. Its almost like you have a huge urge for Taco bell but because the drive thru was a bit long you went to a burger joint instead and will never know how glorious that taco bell meal might have been.

I heart taco bell.

I think them "giving up too early" is actually a sign of just how dire the situation is with-in ToR/Bioware right now. Shit, the game was released less than 10 months ago.

This isn't meant as a troll attempt, but I think they really expected the "franchise" to instantly get ~2m+ players and then word of mouth would quickly (see: less than 10 months) spread and they expected people to flock from WoW and the other remaining MMORPGs. Clearly they were wrong.

I'm curious what you thought "would've" been great, but they gave up too early meaning what exactly? I haven't followed ToR since about 2 days after launch (when I uninstalled it) but did they stop producing patches for it or something?

---------- Post added 2012-08-11 at 12:46 PM ----------

Which I never claimed otherwise.

I didn't mean to say you were. I'm saying that you certainly made it seem "unfair" to other games or something by WoW stating "we have 10m players". Whether it's 10m (world) or 5m (western) it doesn't change the outcome.

Maybe Blizzard should just change their wording to "active accounts" instead of "subscribers".

[Victus01]

Re: china /asian subs. the time cards are in bulk buy hours so to speak buy 60 hours and you can use it as little as you want within 12 months and are tracked for every minute you use it. so a 60 hour game card can last a person up to 12 months and they would still count as subscribers as long as those game cards are still active as opposed to us western monthly subscribers, they have no pressure to play everyday of every month to get our money's worth.

I think them "giving up too early" is actually a sign of just how dire the situation is with-in ToR/Bioware right now. Shit, the game was released less than 10 months ago.

This isn't meant as a troll attempt, but I think they really expected the "franchise" to instantly get ~2m+ players and then word of mouth would quickly (see: less than 10 months) spread and they expected people to flock from WoW and the other remaining MMORPGs. Clearly they were wrong.

I'm curious what you thought "would've" been great, but they gave up too early meaning what exactly? I haven't followed ToR since about 2 days after launch (when I uninstalled it) but did they stop producing patches for it or something?[COLOR="red"]

like i said in my earlier post they are dropping subscribers like flies to bug spray. first report was 400k subs this dropped subs to around i believe 1.2 mil. which they said 400k was the casual mmo players. then latest report at the EA meeting with shareholders confirmed that subs are now under 1M. they are very vague on the actual amount and and will be going to a hybrid F2P model. they also actually reduced the impact of the bad news by also saying how well BF3 was doing. even the fan boys with the pitchforks cant deny swtor is heading for trouble. all this and not even 1 year from release.


they had no other choice but to change how swtor operated. especially with big title MMOs that came out / are coming out this year. TSW, GW2. or face annihilation if they stayed the way they were. In 10 months we had only seen 1 major content addition. that was the denova operation. the Rank WZ and other features were supposed to be in release but just go put in now so it does not count.

[Redblade]

I'm saying that you certainly made it seem "unfair" to other games or something by WoW stating "we have 10m players". Whether it's 10m (world) or 5m (western) it doesn't change the outcome.

You got the whole thing wrong then, I don't care so much what Blizzard says, any sane person knows it's PR speak with positive language, what I do take more issue with is people entering in to a discussion where the separation is relevant and start chanting 10 million subscribers when it really isn't relevant as opposed to the western numbers on their own would be.

[DanBowie]

it 9 million fyi not 10. They lost 1 million in 1 qtr

[Redblade]

it 9 million fyi not 10. They lost 1 million in 1 qtr

Thank you captain obvious, if you had read and understood you would have seen it was just a number used for argument sake and not accuracy.

[iggie]

Yes I'm sure a lot of people buy 1 minutes of gametime, get real please.

Time cards come in 30/60 hour increments. I added one yesterday. I checked after a few hours on my DK and I had 2 days 12 hours left so it's actually more than 60 I think on the bigger time card.

The game time also never expires.


My point was that even very active players spend less money a month than a single American/EU/TW/KR sub. Semi active/casual players who just log on to raid and do a few dailies spend pennies compared to what westerners do on a sub. I am filled with rage when people spout massive sub numbers and start QQ'ing how rich Blizzard is. Personally, I have 4 WoW accounts on China. I count as 4 subs, yet I'll play each account for MAYBE 3-4 hours every few weeks.

the Chinese guy can space he's 219 hours over a month or 12 months, it doesn't matter as long as he logs in X minutes in X days that is defined by Blizzard to be counted as a subscriber.

Precisely. I wish they'd stop using China's subs in their data. Keep in mind Taiwan uses a monthly sub equal to $15 USD a month, so don't lump them in with China.

[Freese]

Personally, I have 4 WoW accounts on China. I count as 4 subs, yet I'll play each account for MAYBE 3-4 hours every few weeks.

People do this with American accounts, too.

[iggie]

People do this with American accounts, too.

The difference is I pay pennies and you pay $15 a month each.

[Deleted]

You got the whole thing wrong then, I don't care so much what Blizzard says, any sane person knows it's PR speak with positive language, what I do take more issue with is people entering in to a discussion where the separation is relevant and start chanting 10 million subscribers when it really isn't relevant as opposed to the western numbers on their own would be.

There is still 9.1 million accounts that are making money for Blizzard, it doesn't matter if they pay monthly or by the hour, thier still making money for blizzard. So why shouldn't they add them all into one group under the title subscribers ?

That doesn't effect swtor one bit.. As swtor is not playable in china and other eastern countries and even if it was WOW still has more western sub than swtors total box sales.

This game is failing and EA ate spinning the f2p for all it's worth, EA lost 100 million this quater blizzard still made 100 million and lost 1 million subs... So who is more successful?

My source? Google both ea statments and AV its all there in black and white.

[Redblade]

There is still 9.1 million accounts that are making money for Blizzard, it doesn't matter if they pay monthly or by the hour, thier still making money for blizzard. So why shouldn't they add them all into one group under the title subscribers ?

You would have know why or at least my arguments for it if you had read the thread, considering the rest of you post I'm fairly sure your intentions with the post really had nothing to do with replying to me nor any interest in the slightly off topic discussion on relevance of Chinese being counted as subscribers or not.