Shaman DPS in MoP

[Adimaru]

Hey everyone

I just bumped on this

http://simulationcraft.org/504/Raid_T14H.html

The latest DPS results in MoP, without scaling buff on a patchwork related fights

Looks like shamans will be again on the lower tier ones

[Deleted]

They are high in the first 30 secs, drop until FE finallyy is gone (after one minute) and after that, without aoe, they are getting captued one by one by every other dd. After 4 minutes, both speccs are currently at the bottom unless they can aoe/cleave or burst is incredibly important ( like say on spine heroic). And not by a few dps, we're talking about 20-25% missing to the top dds right now.

I wonder when they will fix. With 5.0.4 going live (the period before 25th septembre) i believe we're going to see very bad results for both shaman speccs because ascension won't hide our very little sustained dps. It currently hides it because ascension makes us look very good on short fights and medicre on short fights.

[Spiel]

i am more alarmed by watching a frost mage so up there than seeing my shaman so low O.o

[Deleted]

i am more alarmed by watching a frost mage so up there than seeing my shaman so low O.o

Actually frost mages are supposed to be competitive now, but some of their utilities are now class wide. I believe that frost mages will be very very strong in PVE. I heard they lack some AOE damage so fire should be more wanted though.

[Spiel]

Actually frost mages are supposed to be competitive now, but some of their utilities are now class wide. I believe that frost mages will be very very strong in PVE. I heard they lack some AOE damage so fire should be more wanted though.

i understand, and i don't see it as negative

but... will they be also so strong regarding pvp? gemballa is scared :S

[Deleted]

Disclaimer from the very same page you've linked:

Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta!
Not All classes are yet supported.
Some class models still need tweaking.
Some class action lists need tweaking.
Some class BiS gear setups need tweaking.
Some trinkets not yet implemented.
Constructive feedback regarding our output will shorten the Beta phase dramatically.
Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta!

Have you actually considered what these words mean? Have you even read them?

At this current moment those numbers mean close to nothing without empirical evidence from the game itself since the sims can (and often are) flat out wrong.

[Endus]

Disclaimer from the very same page you've linked:


Have you actually considered what these words mean? Have you even read them?

At this current moment those numbers mean close to nothing without empirical evidence from the game itself since the sims can (and often are) flat out wrong.

Just to re-emphasize this;
The Shaman models are still being worked on
Even if the Shaman models were fine, OTHER models are still being worked on
The simc crowd is usually always playing catchup with beta changes at this point; stuff is changing quickly and each model is worked on by different people at different paces.
Even if everything WERE perfectly modeled, sims inherently assume certain things about gameplay and the environment. Primarily; it simulates a Patchwerk style fight with zero movement, and mobility is one of Elemental's strengths, meaning sims aren't a terribly accurate predicter of in-raid results.

[Deleted]

Well the shamans are where they are supposed to, and represent a checkpoint for where the other classes should also be. The fact that every other class in the game will never actually be brought to such a low level as shamans is another matter entirely.
And for the last time, stop with the "it's beta, they are still working on it" bull crap. I've heard it through the entire beta, also in the past, and besides some small tweaking(aka nerfing) nothing has changed. Shamans are still the lower of the lowest.
Oh and opinions from the ones that didn't even bother to actually test the beta/ptr for themselves is invalid. A spreadsheet of change logs won't give you nowhere near a valid idea about what's going on.

[Deleted]

We're not talking about past tendencies of damage being low/high/purple/soft or blizzard's tendencies to nerf the most QQing class the most, but actual errors in mechanics of theorycrafting the fight on simcraft's end (which happens quite a lot during beta). Therefore, the information represented there can not be used as a fact, regardless of what is your initial argument that you want to support with these sims.

Also, if you don't believe that betas in software development are used to implement tweaks and fiddle around with the numbers - we'll, there's nothing to discuss.
And yes, I've done plenty of testing during this and previous beta's.

[Austilias]

I find that simcraft a little bit questionable; not least because Enhancement is currently hitting like a wet fish on the beta.

[Lassira]

Not exactly like shaman DPS being in the low tier is something new or exciting.

[Socialhealer]

Not exactly like shaman DPS being in the low tier is something new or exciting.

haha this shaman is always terribad when an x-pac starts, we're nothing till we get some decent haste or cata, haste and mastery.

[Deleted]

haha this shaman is always terribad when an x-pac starts, we're nothing till we get some decent haste or cata, haste and mastery.

Actually, no. They got stronger because they got buffed mid-expansion (that will happen anyways - the question is when and how much). Scaling was really bad for enhancement and surely better, but not great for enhancement.

Elemental got strong single target dps simply due to the most overpowered set bonus ever and a weird mechanic and lost a lot of it in 4.3, but gained finally a lot of cleave potential.

But both speccs have simply extremely low sustained dps right now. I believe we are greatly overrated due to ascension whic for the moment kills shaman dps because people always look at those short fights, but forget, that those fights are short because most raids wipe a lot. Once guilds will start killing the hardmodes, the fights will be much longer and that's when shamans totally suffer.

The reason simcraft shows shamans at the bottom is not because it's wrong, it's simply because it looks at a 10min fight while most players look at 1-2 minutes fights.

[Socialhealer]

Actually, no. They got stronger because they got buffed mid-expansion (that will happen anyways - the question is when and how much). Scaling was really bad for enhancement and surely better, but not great for enhancement.

Elemental got strong single target dps simply due to the most overpowered set bonus ever and a weird mechanic and lost a lot of it in 4.3, but gained finally a lot of cleave potential.

But both speccs have simply extremely low sustained dps right now. I believe we are greatly overrated due to ascension whic for the moment kills shaman dps because people always look at those short fights, but forget, that those fights are short because most raids wipe a lot. Once guilds will start killing the hardmodes, the fights will be much longer and that's when shamans totally suffer.

The reason simcraft shows shamans at the bottom is not because it's wrong, it's simply because it looks at a 10min fight while most players look at 1-2 minutes fights.

did u read what u quoted lol? talking about mid x-pac and 4.3...you realise i said start?

i know we always get buffed, WotLK we got like 7 consecutive buffs because we scaled like crap, and in the end when we had some haste...we owned..and even owned arena. point proven.

[Deleted]

Elemental will probably be number 15 or so in the hierarchy of dps specs as usual.
What's good is that we have Endus to tell us it's perfectly fine and normal, so no worries !

[Halx]

Elemental will probably be number 15 or so in the hierarchy of dps specs as usual.
What's good is that we have Endus to tell us it's perfectly fine and normal, so no worries !

Lol, this reply made my day
But sadly, I think it's true (in both parts). I remember the last expansion where many people said things like "keep cool it's just beta..."
We all know how that ended. I think we will see history repeating.

[Nisala]

As much as I'd love to jump on the 'let's all hate Endus' bandwagon, I must admit that I'm not overly concerned by elemental shaman dps right now (I'm afraid enhancement hasn't really held my attention so I won't comment). I realise we're simming low, right now - but the sims are still being tweaked and classes are still being buffed and nerfed - but what I am holding out for is that our mobility will ensure we see ourselves maintaining competitive damage. For the most part, we're entirely effective whilst moving (minus having to hard cast LB on occasion), and that should work in our favour. It will once again be the Patchwerk fights that see us lagging behind.

[Skandulous]

Hey everyone

I just bumped on this

http://simulationcraft.org/504/Raid_T14H.html

The latest DPS results in MoP, without scaling buff on a patchwork related fights

Looks like shamans will be again on the lower tier ones

funny i just watched some live streams on raid testing an hunters mages locks and a shammy were on top of the charts and even a ret pally so its safe to say simcraft isnt the end all be all tell tail of dps

[Volitar]

It's the same shit every expansion. Ele is always in the dumpster and I wonder why I haven't rerolled yet.

[JuicedawgYO]

Yeeeah so maybe you people messing around with your stupid simc should actually get on the beta and raid to test it and not depend so much on some math that some other guy did for you. I know it makes you feel special and skilled and smart and stuff, but simc at this point is a waste of time really and why would you sim patchwerk fight anyways lol, that tells how much you have been actually raiding on beta.