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  1. #1

    Can you explain why Sanctity of Battle works for Ret but not Prot?

    The title was the Blue comment (from the front page) to this post:

    I've enjoyed playing Ret in the beta, not because it's been "OP" but because it feels more fluid. This is a sharp contrast to prot which feels much clunkier with our main attacks going to haste scaling rather than a fixed 3-second cooldown.
    So, the obvious response to the Blue's comment that came to mind for me was "Prot doesn't stack Haste on their gear".

    So, am I missing something as to why this comment was made by a Blue? Does Prot have access to enough +Haste to allow SoB make any difference? (Other than random buffs from other classes)

  2. #2
    Mechagnome
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    Either I'm missing something aswell, or Ghostcrawler really deserves the greatest facepalm of all time.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkiri View Post
    Either I'm missing something aswell, or Ghostcrawler really deserves the greatest facepalm of all time.
    In general, it's so sad how Ghostcrawler managed to make so many posts about Ret over the last few days, and not a single one of them addresses anything important. He literally picked the most pointless/non-nonsensical posts to respond to.

  4. #4
    Brewmaster Zombina's Avatar
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    I guess it counts bloodlust and the 10% haste aura, it doesn't feel clunky to me though

  5. #5
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    As of right now, it doesn't look all that great to give Prot SoB, but every other tank had scaling from haste (regardless of them using it or not) due to base class mechanics. Now Prot will have it as well, it's just more visible because we have something in our spellbooks to indicate that it exists.

    GC's response is essentially asking for numbers and a more in depth analysis, nothing more.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    As of right now, it doesn't look all that great to give Prot SoB, but every other tank had scaling from haste (regardless of them using it or not) due to base class mechanics. Now Prot will have it as well, it's just more visible because we have something in our spellbooks to indicate that it exists.

    GC's response is essentially asking for numbers and a more in depth analysis, nothing more.
    I suppose.

    I like to try to refrain from jumping to the immediate "GC IZ A NUB ADN STOOPID AND HE SHUD BE FIERD!!!" rhetoric that I often read, however, I read that response several times, and all I could come up with is "Does he really think that (properly geared) Prot has any +Haste on their gear to make SoB make any difference? What am I missing?"

    I suppose Druid tanks, and the upcoming Monk Tanks, could have a lot of haste, given that they basically wear rogue leather, but plate tanks don't. So for numbers, I guess it would be 0 +Haste from gear, and maybe a random group buff from another party member.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    The title was the Blue comment (from the front page) to this post:



    So, the obvious response to the Blue's comment that came to mind for me was "Prot doesn't stack Haste on their gear".

    So, am I missing something as to why this comment was made by a Blue? Does Prot have access to enough +Haste to allow SoB make any difference? (Other than random buffs from other classes)
    I tried using full haste healing gear to try to hit 3second CS again. Not possible at 85, not even with the haste trinket proc from DS.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlolz View Post
    I tried using full haste healing gear to try to hit 3second CS again. Not possible at 85, not even with the haste trinket proc from DS.
    there is nothing special about 3 sec CS anymore.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    there is nothing special about 3 sec CS anymore.
    Faster HoP generation = more SotRs/WoGs;
    I'd still like it back if anything else since I'm use to it.

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlolz View Post
    Faster HoP generation = more SotRs/WoGs;
    I'd still like it back if anything else since I'm use to it.
    We have plenty of HP generators already.

    Haste doesn't natively come on gear, but I honestly haven't seen any issues with the addition of Sanctity of Battle for prot, not at all.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Splosion View Post
    We have plenty of HP generators already.

    Haste doesn't natively come on gear, but I honestly haven't seen any issues with the addition of Sanctity of Battle for prot, not at all.
    I don't know, it's a bit awkward to have a mechanic that benefits from a stat you don't ever have on your gear. I mean it's not a big deal, but it's odd.

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    I don't know, it's a bit awkward to have a mechanic that benefits from a stat you don't ever have on your gear. I mean it's not a big deal, but it's odd.
    DKs have it now, why is it a problem?

  13. #13
    Well, it's not a huge problem. But DKs actually often use normal dps weapons, not tanking weapons, so they sometimes have some haste. In general, DK tanks have usually benefited more from melee dps stats, making it much more viable to use some dps gear and thus get some haste.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord DerSenf's Avatar
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    I saw this post and thought to myself too "...what? Really?".
    I don't think SoB was a bad Idea for prot, this way Paladins do gain a noticable damage (and threat) gain during Hero/Lust. But still, thats all it is good for.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    I don't know, it's a bit awkward to have a mechanic that benefits from a stat you don't ever have on your gear. I mean it's not a big deal, but it's odd.
    Raid haste buff, Hero/BL, Fight mechanic haste buff (like Madness).

    I mean would you rather they just take away SoB and leave you at 4.5 sec CD's all the time? (since its unlikely they want prot back at the 3 sec cd's it had in Cata)

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    The reason the 3 second CS matters on live is because SoB doesn't reduce the gcd, so in order for SoB to have any kind of big impact you need to have enough to get CS down to a 3 second cd. Since in MoP SoB also reduces the gcd of those abilities, it actually has a pretty decent impact at all levels of haste, since it will always allow you to hit your buttons faster.

    As Malth stated above, other tanks have always had haste giving some small but not very noticeable benefit to them, Paladins now just have a more visible representation of that since we use mana as a resource rather than rage/energy/runic power.

  17. #17
    The Patient UnderworldSoup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    I don't know, it's a bit awkward to have a mechanic that benefits from a stat you don't ever have on your gear. I mean it's not a big deal, but it's odd.
    Sometimes raid drops happen that we choose to use because we can't get the actual piece for that spot. Just this tier, I tanked all of the content using the heroic DPS belt (haste/mastery) from Hagara since Blackhorn never did drop his belt. I'd used the haste/mastery shared loot ring as well until I got a suitable replacement.

    It's not always about using tunnel vision to get the tanking gear - you have to consider the cards you're dealt. If I use a haste piece, I expect the benefits of having that haste to show itself just like it does for Retribution.

  18. #18
    It's not so much that Prot gets SoB and (other than raid buffs that come from a source other than the Paladin themselves and/or their gear) they will largely get no benefit from it, so much as the wording GC used.

    Can you explain why Sanctity of Battle works for Ret (Which has haste on their gear) but not Prot?(which does not have haste on their gear)

    I'm not here saying ZOMG PROT IS BROKEN PLZ BUFF, and I understand there are other sources for HP generation than just CS/HotR.

    However, GC's comment made it seemed like he was under the impression that Ret and Prot will get equal value out of SoB, when in fact, due to the lack of Haste on Prot's gear, they will get no benefit at all unless they are affected by an external buff.

    It seemed so far out in the field of, "Wait, wha--?!" that I figured I must have been overlooking something obvious. But apparently, that isn't the case.

  19. #19
    Not so much a case of missing something obvious, but a case of interpreting something that isn't there. You appear to be under the impression that there needs to be haste on a given paladin's gear for Sanctity of Battle to matter. There doesn't. I'm personally rather happy external buffs will actually affect me now.

    Also, if anyone remembers that time GC said players should try to learn an adjective other than "clunky", I kind of agree with him. :P

  20. #20
    This was a response to one of the statements I made. Yes, I was sure to throw the obvious response back in his face, as well as make a jab about how haste is actually a viable stat for Monks as well. Having the cooldowns on all of your main abilities increase by 50% really has no other word you can use other than "clunky", and the amount of haste we get from random raid buffs will not be enough to really make a difference in that dead time.

    Honestly, I've really tried in the past to give him valid data but he pretty much ignores it (see my "Dude, where's my damage?" thread) and claims we aren't giving him data when it's right there in his fucking face. He seems completely out of touch with the players and how the game is played at times, which really worries me.

    At least we didn't get something completely snide and unproductive like he gave warriors in the Colossus Smash thread
    Last edited by Farabee; 2012-08-14 at 12:33 PM.

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