View Poll Results: what will replace gas/petrol for cars?

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  • electric

    44 34.65%
  • hydrogen

    59 46.46%
  • other

    24 18.90%
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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by The Riddler View Post
    More? Obama threw away much more than a billion. Solar Trust, Solyndra, Energy Conversion Devices, LSP, Sun Power, Beacon Power, Ecotality, UniSolar, Azure Dynamics, Ener1, A123 Solar, Abound Solar, Evergreen Solar, Spectra Watt, Amonix, NRG Energy, Bright Energy... Just to name a FEW of the companies that have either gone completely bankrupt, or otherwise had to downsize/fold. Between them all, Obama has sunk more like around 25 billion into Solar. That's not even touching all the money he's flushed down the toilet with the Volt, Fisker, Tesla, and all these other unprofitable money pits.

    Regardless of that... So what if China has dumped that much money into panels? Solar is still far over 5 times more expensive than coal or natural gas as a means of generating electricity. There's no shortage of coal or gas. Why forcibly change over to a more expensive energy when there is no need for it? I say let China be the king of solar panels, and let the US stay on coal/gas for the next 100 years by which time something far better then crappy, expensive, inefficient photovoltaic panels and dirty, heavy, inefficient, expensive batteries has come along - making the current "solar" market utterly irrelevant.
    lol go look at why they went Bankrupt. It is the same reason it is easier to buy steel from China then to have it made over here. China is undercutting our companies bad.

    You have China basically nationalizing their solar industry with endless money to cover the cost and as they make advances the cost is going down vs the price they tack onto it.

    Also this obsession with coal and gas? You realize China has like a 2 billion people right and growing? Gasoline cost $1.20 just 12 year ago if I remember right and then China and India became major consumers. China and India are building coal plants at a rate that would make your head spin.

    How soon before coal prices sky rocket also? Solar will be the cheaper alternative very soon. You get a 5,000 tax break for upgrading to solar, so it already is cheaper.
    Last edited by Puremallace; 2012-08-16 at 06:15 PM.
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  2. #142
    Legendary! muto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakain View Post
    Btw, electric energy is kind of a silly option. Electric cars still burn fossil fuels more often than not. Where do you think the electricity is coming from? Probably a power plant that burns oil or coal.
    Partially, we have a nuclear power plant and a coal based power plant where I live.

    I know someone who works for the power company here, and they can't stand having to work down at the nuclear facility sometimes because of how tightly guarded it is, and all the security checks, plus the 1 hour drive to get there, and 1 hour drive to get back.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Partially, we have a nuclear power plant and a coal based power plant where I live.

    I know someone who works for the power company here, and they can't stand having to work down at the nuclear facility sometimes because of how tightly guarded it is, and all the security checks, plus the 1 hour drive to get there, and 1 hour drive to get back.
    Well Nuclear plant creation just got put on hold because they cannot figure out where to put the waste.
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  4. #144
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Yeah, very few power plants are oil burning.

    I'm all for Nuclear Power too.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-16 at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Well Nuclear plant creation just got put on hold because they cannot figure out where to put the waste.
    No, it got put on hold because people are afraid of the giant ants and Godzilla.
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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Well Nuclear plant creation just got put on hold because they cannot figure out where to put the waste.
    another thread might have suggested sending it to iran, lol

  6. #146
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Riddler View Post
    More? Obama threw away much more than a billion. Solar Trust, Solyndra, Energy Conversion Devices, LSP, Sun Power, Beacon Power, Ecotality, UniSolar, Azure Dynamics, Ener1, A123 Solar, Abound Solar, Evergreen Solar, Spectra Watt, Amonix, NRG Energy, Bright Energy... Just to name a FEW of the companies that have either gone completely bankrupt, or otherwise had to downsize/fold. Between them all, Obama has sunk more like around 25 billion into Solar. That's not even touching all the money he's flushed down the toilet with the Volt, Fisker, Tesla, and all these other unprofitable money pits.

    Regardless of that... So what if China has dumped that much money into panels? Solar is still far over 5 times more expensive than coal or natural gas as a means of generating electricity. There's no shortage of coal or gas. Why forcibly change over to a more expensive energy when there is no need for it? I say let China be the king of solar panels, and let the US stay on coal/gas for the next 100 years by which time something far better then crappy, expensive, inefficient photovoltaic panels and dirty, heavy, inefficient, expensive batteries has come along - making the current "solar" market utterly irrelevant.
    There's this thing called pollution. Also if you don't subsidize the clean energy market, it will probably take 1000 years to replace coal.
    Last edited by Yilar; 2012-08-16 at 06:41 PM.

  7. #147
    Legendary! muto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Well Nuclear plant creation just got put on hold because they cannot figure out where to put the waste.
    They have reprocessing plants in Europe (notably France), Russia, and Japan.

  8. #148
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    They have reprocessing plants in Europe (notably France), Russia, and Japan.
    Yeah, plus I remember reading that all the nuclear waste produced by all the nuclear plants in the US since the inception of the nuclear program fills up only about half of one football field. If it weren't against the law to reprocess it here in the US, we could do what they do in France and reduce that pretty considerably.
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  9. #149
    Brewmaster The Riddler's Avatar
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    You have China basically nationalizing their solar industry with endless money to cover the cost and as they make advances the cost is going down vs the price they tack onto it.
    No - the cost isn't going down. It is simply being subsidized to hide the expense. If solar was all that great, then China would be - you know - actually USING it for their power infrastructure. Guess what? They aren't. Quite the opposite. They use fossil fuels. Now, you think that a country that was mass producing huge amounts of solar panels would actually use them for power. Why aren't they?

    Quite simply, China is content to let dumb countries buy their panels which they can make cheap NOT because of subsidies, but because of their lousy labor laws. The same panel would cost 3X as much to make in the US or Europe because of labor. But even with their cheapo panels and even WITH massive US subsidies, solar power STILL costs 5X more than coal or natural gas.

    It is an artificial attempt to forcibly swap over as much of the nation's electricity to solar as possible. And as Obama said, "power costs would necessarily skyrocket". But why? Why force the change when it isn't needed? Well - here's your answer...

    There's this thing called pollution.
    What I call the "pollution paranoia" market. There are people so twitterpated by the concept of "clean energy" that they are perfectly willing to go bankrupt simply to say "I'm not polluting". Now - let's ignore the fact that clean coal burning tech has made leaps and bounds and that coal is perfectly fine. Let's ignore the fact that natural gas (which we have TONS of) is even cleaner than coal. Solar is not exactly "clean". It takes up massive land areas, renders them uninhabitable, uses tons of rare earth and other toxic substances, needs huge battery arrays, and a ton of other 'dirty' things. Point for point, solar really is no better for the environment than any other method. ALL human activity impacts the environment - and solar is no exception. There's no nice way to put it. Solar advocates are swooning over a romantic dream of 'clean energy' that doesn't really exist.

  10. #150
    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Riddler View Post
    Now - let's ignore the fact that clean coal burning tech has made leaps and bounds and that coal is perfectly fine. Let's ignore the fact that natural gas (which we have TONS of) is even cleaner than coal.
    I work for the power company. Coal is a dead end. Clean coal is nothing but a stopgap measure. NG isn't getting any cheaper (but it's really awesome for peaking). Wind+NG backup is pretty nice, but gets real expensive due to the redundancy needed, and solar is ineffective this far north. Barring a sudden breakthrough towards a generation-practical fusion reactor, fission is going to be the only path forward.

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