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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Spud Webb

    /thread

    <3 Spud Webb, he had a vertical that was just craaaaazzyyy!

    I hated Jordan growing up, couldn't stand him cause he won all the time, but even I know the dude is the greatest. I was talking to a guy at work the other day about this same topic, dude thinks Lebron is the best thing ever, and even he thinks Jordan is the greatest. Its like he said, there is much more than stats or athletic ability that goes into being the greatest. Jordan dominated the game, and while he had some cappable players around him, he wasn't trying to stack the deck like Lebron did.

    It comes down to one thing for me. Jordan was drafted by the Bulls and made that entire franchise, he won the championship with a team that initially wasn't jack. Lebron? He had to go get help.

  2. #182
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    Jordan didn't have anybody else great playing against him when he was in his prime. Bird was old Magic was old and had to retire from HIV the Pistons had disbanded by then. Wilt had Russel and Bird had Magic, Jordan didn't have anybody Clyde Drexler was on a crappy team and Patrick Ewing was a center/PF it would be like comparing Kobe to Duncan or Shaq. IDK I grew up in that era I'm 31 I saw the games he played in he wasn't as dominate as people think he was he was just had those great moments that people like Magic and Bird had as well.

  3. #183
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    The heck? How can people compare Lebron even close to Kobe ? he havn't acomplished anything, He is at his best years right now, look at Kobe when he were at his best years, im not kidding he was 10 times better.

    Longterm it's also Kobe, Kobe and Michael are the same, as they were young both could drive up and do crazy dunks and when they both got old they survived/still survives on their shooting, Look at Kobe's age and he still avereges most in the league.

    Lebron and Vince carter is a perfect example aswell, they both were/are amazing when they were young, driving past any1 dunking the shit outta that basket but look at MR.Carter as soon as he got old and his body couldn't do these things anymore, u barley speak of him anymore? He didn't have that shooting gene to survive on his shooting. I Bet Lebron will end up the same, he doesn't got it, Kobe and Michael was amazing shooters, lebron just isn't.

    This is my opinion and yes i am a Kobe fan but id still say im right anyways

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristeia View Post
    All you guys saying Bryant kind of make me disgusted, no way, not even in the top 20...

    It's either Magic or Jordan, that's it.
    What are u smoking?

  4. #184
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancleave View Post
    Lebron and Vince carter is a perfect example aswell, they both were/are amazing when they were young, driving past any1 dunking the shit outta that basket but look at MR.Carter as soon as he got old and his body couldn't do these things anymore, u barley speak of him anymore? He didn't have that shooting gene to survive on his shooting. I Bet Lebron will end up the same, he doesn't got it, Kobe and Michael was amazing shooters, lebron just isn't.

    This is my opinion and yes i am a Kobe fan but id still say im right anyways
    This is the most insane comparison ever. LeBron is Vince freaking Carter? Excuse me, its not insane it is downright stupid.
    1) Vince is a highlight player nothing more. He was never a team guy. He never elevated others with his play. He barely rebounds. He is a negative defender.
    2) The stats alone don't back up your insane premise.
    Career stats:
    LeBron James: 700 games, 27.6 points, 7.2 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.7 steals, .8 blocks
    Vince Carter: 998 games played, 21.3 points, 5.1 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 1.2 steals, .7 blocks
    But Conscript those stats aren't fair since Vince has eroded.
    Best year in career:
    Vince Carter:2006-07 25.2 points, 6 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 1 steal, .4 blocks, 2.6 TO, 3.2 PF
    LeBron's 7th best career year: 26.7 points, 7.5 rebounds, 7 assists, 1.6 steals, .6 blocks, 3.6 TO, 2.1 PFs

    The best year in VCs ENTIRE career would be the SEVENTH best year in LeBron's. Even by advanced metrics, VCs best year would be 12.9 Win Shares (10.3 Offensive, 2.6 Defensive) in 2000-01. That is worse than every single year of LeBron's entire career but his rookie season.

    I'm not even going to bring up the fact that LeBron has zero injury history (his highest missed games in an entire season is 7) while Vince has a long history of injury issues. But I will bring up these stats:

    MVP: LeBron 3 (and we all know it is really 4) VC 0
    All NBA 1st team: LeBron 6, VC 0
    All NBA 2nd team: LeBron 2, VC 1
    All NAB 3rd team: LeBron 0, VC 1
    All NBA Defensive 1st team: LeBron 4, VC 0
    Rings: LeBron 1, VC 0

    So in what universe are they even at all comparable players health wise, stat wise, or anything wise? They don't even play similar games.

    As for Kobe and LeBron, the great debate, I'm too busy to get into that right this second, but I'll have it up this afternoon.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-11-20 at 07:06 PM.

  5. #185
    Field Marshal Vancleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conscript View Post
    This is the most insane comparison ever. LeBron is Vince freaking Carter? Excuse me, its not insane it is downright stupid.
    1) Vince is a highlight player nothing more. He was never a team guy. He never elevated others with his play. He barely rebounds. He is a negative defender.
    2) The stats alone don't back up your insane premise.
    Career stats:
    LeBron James: 700 games, 27.6 points, 7.2 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.7 steals, .8 blocks
    Vince Carter: 998 games played, 21.3 points, 5.1 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 1.2 steals, .7 blocks
    But Conscript those stats aren't fair since Vince has eroded.
    Best year in career:
    Vince Carter:2006-07 25.2 points, 6 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 1 steal, .4 blocks, 2.6 TO, 3.2 PF
    LeBron's 7th best career year: 26.7 points, 7.5 rebounds, 7 assists, 1.6 steals, .6 blocks, 3.6 TO, 2.1 PFs

    The best year in VCs ENTIRE career would be the SEVENTH best year in LeBron's. Even by advanced metrics, VCs best year would be 12.9 Win Shares (10.3 Offensive, 2.6 Defensive) in 2000-01. That is worse than every single year of LeBron's entire career but his rookie season.

    I'm not even going to bring up the fact that LeBron has zero injury history (his highest missed games in an entire season is 7) while Vince has a long history of injury issues. But I will bring up these stats:

    MVP: LeBron 3 (and we all know it is really 4) VC 0
    All NBA 1st team: LeBron 6, VC 0
    All NBA 2nd team: LeBron 2, VC 1
    All NAB 3rd team: LeBron 0, VC 1
    All NBA Defensive 1st team: LeBron 4, VC 0
    Rings: LeBron 1, VC 0

    So in what universe are they even at all comparable players health wise, stat wise, or anything wise? They don't even play similar games.

    As for Kobe and LeBron, the great debate, I'm too busy to get into that right this second, but I'll have it up this afternoon.

    Im not comparing them both as players but for their Athleticism and play style, they both survived on the way they could drive to the basket, gimme a call when lebron is 32 years old and can do the stuff he does today, won't happen. That's the way im comparing them both, don't get me wrong, Lebron is atleast 10 times better then Vince ever was althought im comparing their styles of playing and athleticism.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Vancleave View Post
    Im not comparing them both as players but for their Athleticism and play style, they both survived on the way they could drive to the basket, gimme a call when lebron is 32 years old and can do the stuff he does today, won't happen. That's the way im comparing them both, don't get me wrong, Lebron is atleast 10 times better then Vince ever was althought im comparing their styles of playing and athleticism.
    Have you ever watched Lebron play? In what way are his and Carter's games even close to the same? That comparison is insane on face value. By the way, LBJ is 28-29 and has been in the league for almost 10 years, along with a couple long playoff runs. As conscript said, in all that time he has had no history of injury. I can't even comprehend what would make someone honestly make this comparison.

  7. #187
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Okay I lied I do have time now lets go through their careers to the point where LeBron is right now. This is LeBron's tenth season in the league so I'll do the first 9 years for both guys. Kobe didn't start his first year in the league as a rookie, so I am going to go ahead and even axe their rookie years from the numbers since LeBron's was vastly, vastly more impressive than Kobes.

    Titles: Kobe 3, LeBron 1
    All time great players played with: Kobe 1, LeBron 0
    NBA Finals MVP: Kobe 0, LeBron 1
    Teams on which he was the alpha dog that made runs to the Championship: Kobe 0, LeBron 3
    Rookie of the year: LeBron 1, Kobe 0 was irrelevant as a rookie
    Remember, Kobe Bryant played with Shaq, the best big man in the NBA since Russell and Wilt. Kobe was the second most important player on his team for a good portion of the first decade of his career. Then he started burning bridges and forced the Lakers to implode. LeBron led the Cavs to the Finals when the Cavs had nobody at all on their team. Then he was the alpha dog on back to back Finals teams in Miami where he did admittedly play with another great played Dwyane Wade and another above average player Chris Bosh.

    Career numbers for years 2-9 of their NBA careers:
    Kobe Bryant: 556 games, 3077 Rebounds, 2697 Assists, 863 Steals, 378 Blocks, 13,495 points
    LeBron James: 610 games, 4511 Rebounds, 4286 Assists, 1064 Steal, 524 Blocks, 17,391 points
    Oh ya and LeBron's overalls contain a lockout shortened season to boot.
    So in years 2-9 of their careers, LeBron is healthier, better in rebounds, assists, points, and defense. Starting to get the picture yet? If not, here are there per game to eliminate the lockout year hurting LeBron's stats.
    Per game numbers years 2-9:
    LeBron: 28.5 points, 7.4 rebounds, 7.0 assists, 1.7 steals, .86 blocks
    Kobe: 24.2 points, 5.5 rebound, 4.8 assists, 1.5 steals, .68 blocks
    And here are their per 36 numbers to eliminate the fact that Kobe was a non-factor for the Lakers for his first couple years and not the guy carrying his team since game 1 in his NBA career since LeBron did play and additional 4,000 minutes over that period even with the shortened season thanks to health and role.
    LeBron: 25.7 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.6 steals, .77 blocks
    Kobe: 23.3 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 1.5 steals, .65 blocks

    So again even by minutes adjusted play, LeBron James was the better player in years 2-9.

    But Conscripts, playoffs is where it really matters and LeBron shrinks in the spotlight while Kobe glimmers like he is made from pure diamond. Well, conveniently they both played in the playoffs 7 times in years 2-9 of their career (LeBron missing year 2, Kobe missing year 9).
    Years 2-9, Playoff TOTALS:
    Kobe Bryant: 110 games played, 2620 points, 566 rebounds, 517 assists, 158 steals, 87 blocks
    LeBron James: 115 games, 3275 points, 998 rebounds, 772 assists, 195 steals, 109 blocks
    Per game Stats:
    Kobe Bryant:40.21 minutes, 23.82 points, 5.15 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 1.44 steals, .8 blocks
    Lebron James: 43.4 minutes, 28.48 points, 8.68 rebounds, 6.71 assists, 1.7 steals, .95 blocks
    Per 36
    Kobe Bryant: 21.32 points, 4.61 rebounds, 4.2 assists, 1.29 steals, .7 blocks
    LeBron James:23.61 points, 7.19 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 1.41 steals, .8 blocks

    So not only is LeBron a VASTLY better regular season player in years 2-9, he is a better playoff player as well. Okay so how about some additional awards:
    Rings: Kobe 3, LeBron 1
    MVPs: LeBron 3, Kobe 0
    RoY: LeBron 1, Kobe 0
    All NBA 1st team: LeBron 6, Kobe 3
    Defensive 1st team: LeBron 4, Kobe 2



    So the reason people say LeBron is a better player than Kobe and has a chance to be the next Jordan where Kobe doesn't is because that is a FACT. LeBron is a better player by every single measurement at this point in his career than Kobe was except for rings where Kobe didn't get over the hump until playing with a truly transcendent big man in Shaquille O'Neal. LeBron just now finally for the first time in his entire career is playing with another All-Star caliber player, let alone an all time NBA great.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 03:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vancleave View Post
    Im not comparing them both as players but for their Athleticism and play style, they both survived on the way they could drive to the basket, gimme a call when lebron is 32 years old and can do the stuff he does today, won't happen. That's the way im comparing them both, don't get me wrong, Lebron is atleast 10 times better then Vince ever was althought im comparing their styles of playing and athleticism.
    Ya I figured that is what you were saying, but their games aren't even close to comparable offensively or defensively. They are built completely differently. LeBron is taller, thicker, and looks like he is carved from granite (seriously if you have ever seen him in person on the court it is remarkable. There isn't another player in the world built like that guy).

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:21 PM ----------

    Also, I'm not even going to compare LeBron or Kobe statistically to Jordan who started his career in an era where the stats were just out of whack with what people put up today (besides Jordan is the best without question). Its like people fawning over the year Wilt put up 50 point per game. Who cares? The NBA was a joke back then. Wilt put up 50, Oscar had a triple double average, a bunch of other guys averaged 30/20. That era of basketball is essentially baseball's steroid era. You have to take everything with a grain of salt because the game was just way different.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-11-21 at 12:22 AM.

  8. #188
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    Hey conscript do all those numbers with those guys plus Wilts so his numbers dwarfs there's. Wilt put over 50 points on this guy named
    Bill Russel god yall act like Russel was a joke and didn't play D at all and everybody was 5 foot tall. The avg. Height of an NBA player hasn't grown that much I think its only like 2 inches last I checked. Also if it was so different back then how come tons of people didn't avg 50 points a game or do double triples only one-two did that shit Wilt has so many records that no nba player will get half as many as Wilt did. Isn't it kinda funny thou that all those "Greatest" players need like 2-3 other great players Lebron needed Wade and Bosh Kobe was second fiddle to Shaq Jordan didn't win to Pippen came in great teams make great players Kobe has always had 2-3 other top notch players either Shaq or Robert Horry or even Pau Gasol.
    Last edited by Skarsguard; 2012-11-21 at 02:30 AM.

  9. #189
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skarsguard View Post
    Hey conscript do all those numbers with those guys plus Wilts so his numbers dwarfs there's. Wilt put over 50 points on this guy named
    Bill Russel god yall act like Russel was a joke and didn't play D at all and everybody was 5 foot tall. The avg. Height of an NBA player hasn't grown that much I think its only like 2 inches last I checked. Also if it was so different back then how come tons of people didn't avg 50 points a game or do double triples only one-two did that shit Wilt has so many records that no nba player will get half as many as Wilt did. Isn't it kinda funny thou that all those "Greatest" players need like 2-3 other great players Lebron needed Wade and Bosh Kobe was second fiddle to Shaq Jordan didn't win to Pippen came in great teams make great players Kobe has always had 2-3 other top notch players either Shaq or Robert Horry or even Pau Gasol.
    Wilt Chamberlain is a joke. Go watch any highlights of him. He is bigger, taller, and more importantly can move whereas every other center in that era except for Russell is a statue white guy who can't do anything. In addition, offensive goaltending was legal. Wilt Chamberlain made a living off deflecting shots or tapping in shots on the rim. Any modern day top flight center could have dominated the way Wilt did if not more. There is a reason people in the NBA have almost no respect for Wilt. He wasn't a winner, he was 100% about personal stats (like the year he did anything he could to get the assist title by refusing to shoot), he wouldn't play defense for the second half of games because he refused to foul out to keep his streak alive, he stole other players shots literally out of the air to pad his stats, he got every single one of his coaches fired after a short period of time. Fun story about Wilt, when the Lakers voted whether to trade for Wilt or not among the players, 9 voted against playing with him and 2 in favor. This is a legendary guy in his prime and people didn't want to play with him.

    As for the second part, are you implying that Wilt didn't need other legendary players to win a title? If so, that is laughable. Wilt won TWO titles in his career. TWO. His first he beat the Celtics in the EC finals in Russell's first year as the player coach of his team. Wilt played with Hal Greer, Chet Walker, and Billy Cunningham three hall of famers. It took another 5 years for Wilt to get back to another title. He did it on the Lakers playing with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West two of the best players of all time. Then again the league was way smaller so everyone played with at least one other legendary player lol.

  10. #190
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    No I am saying that most of the great players needed somebody else great to win with including Jordan,Bird,Magic,Lebron,Duncan,Russel and wilt they all needed somebody esp Lebron who needed 2 of the top 10 players to win with and kobe has always had an all star cast. I still remember when the Spurs beat Lebron 4-0 in the finals his team didn't win a single game.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by skarsguard View Post
    No I am saying that most of the great players needed somebody else great to win with including Jordan,Bird,Magic,Lebron,Russel and wilt they all needed somebody esp Lebron who needed top 10 players to win with and kobe has always had an all star cast.
    Oh okay. Ya I don't think there has been a single guy who ever carried a team on their own to a title.

  12. #192
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    Also as far as padding numbers isn't there still baseball players that will sit the last 10 games so they won't lose the batting title.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by skarsguard View Post
    Also as far as padding numbers isn't there still baseball players that will sit the last 10 games so they won't lose the batting title.
    Oh ya. This year when Miggy was going for the triple crown there were a whole lot of folks saying he should just sit the last game and not risk losing the average portion since the Tigers didn't need to win their last game to make the playoffs. In 2011 Jose Reyes bunted for a single in his first at bat in the last game of the year giving him the NL batting title and then asked to be pulled from the game lol.

  14. #194
    I'm with conscript on the Wilt thing. He was a legendary jackass that was only concerned about stats.

    I didn't realize LBJ's numbers were so much better than Kobe's over this stretch of their careers. That's nuts. He's still no Jordan. I think, when it is all said and done, Kobe could legitimately make a top 5 all time case. If he had another MVP on his resume, it would be more solid, but (let's be honest here) the NBA gave one his his MVP trophies to Nash instead. James is also aiming for top 5. Potentially number two, depending on his final ring total.

    Last thing: one could make the argument that Nowitski won his last championship largely by himself. A bunch of talented guys, but no real all stars or franchise guys.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    I'm with conscript on the Wilt thing. He was a legendary jackass that was only concerned about stats.

    I didn't realize LBJ's numbers were so much better than Kobe's over this stretch of their careers. That's nuts. He's still no Jordan. I think, when it is all said and done, Kobe could legitimately make a top 5 all time case. If he had another MVP on his resume, it would be more solid, but (let's be honest here) the NBA gave one his his MVP trophies to Nash instead. James is also aiming for top 5. Potentially number two, depending on his final ring total.

    Last thing: one could make the argument that Nowitski won his last championship largely by himself. A bunch of talented guys, but no real all stars or franchise guys.
    Totally agree about that Nash MVP. WTF were people thinking giving him a second MVP in a row when he shouldn't have even been top 5 in the voting that year. That was the year KG rebirthed the Celtics, Chris Paul went nuts and dragged the Hornets to relevance, and Kobe was fantastic.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    I'm with conscript on the Wilt thing. He was a legendary jackass that was only concerned about stats.

    I didn't realize LBJ's numbers were so much better than Kobe's over this stretch of their careers. That's nuts. He's still no Jordan. I think, when it is all said and done, Kobe could legitimately make a top 5 all time case. If he had another MVP on his resume, it would be more solid, but (let's be honest here) the NBA gave one his his MVP trophies to Nash instead. James is also aiming for top 5. Potentially number two, depending on his final ring total.

    Last thing: one could make the argument that Nowitski won his last championship largely by himself. A bunch of talented guys, but no real all stars or franchise guys.
    Ofcourse Lebron's numbers are higher then Kobe's, kobe has been playing for ages, Lebron's will lower each coming year

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Vancleave View Post
    Ofcourse Lebron's numbers are higher then Kobe's, kobe has been playing for ages, Lebron's will lower each coming year
    You obviously didnt read the break down of the statistics that he did. He broke them down by each individual year in the league, and in the overall numbers even took out Kobe's rookie year. I'm no LBJ fan, but after seeing the break down its pretty hard to argue with. Statistics don't always tell the entire story, but they can be fairly compelling.

    Its much like the greatest of all time debate, Jordan isn't considered the greatest just because of stats, he's considered the greatest because he became the face of the game and changed that game. The style of basketball we have today is due directly to how Jordan played the game and how future players wanted to emulate him.

    Kobe is a great player in his own right, no one is denying that, but he's having a hard time stacking up to LBJ let alone Jordan.

  18. #198
    Alfred Matthew Yankovic.

  19. #199
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancleave View Post
    Ofcourse Lebron's numbers are higher then Kobe's, kobe has been playing for ages, Lebron's will lower each coming year
    Feel free to actually read my post above where I adjusted their numbers to equal points in their career and it pretty much definitively shows LeBron> Kobe to this point in LeBron's career. If he plays as long as Kobe has, which isn't out of the question considering Kobe is the one who has had repeated injury issues especially with his knees while LeBron hasn't had any issues ever, he will blow Kobe's numbers out of the water for scoring, assists, rebounds, MVPs, 1st teams, everything but rings probably.

  20. #200
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    You also got to think that when Kobe came in he wasn't the best player on the team like Lebron was. Kobe was a true rookie Lebron was the caption of the team before the season even started it's just different circumstances on how they started there first years in the NBA.

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