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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubalus View Post
    People who say anything but Jordan never saw Jordan play in his prime ^^
    That's a pretty big cop out.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by jreg View Post
    That's a pretty big cop out.
    Except it isn't. Stats aren't as concrete as they are in, say, baseball. You can't just put some numbers in a formula and find the best player. That's why I don't accept the Wilt Chamberlain argument for best ever. It's really easy to pad stats when that's all you care about. This is all about what you see on the court. Jordan dominated people. Jordan owned games in a way I haven't seen since except for those two games from Lebron last year. Jordan had everything you could ask for from a player. Stifling defense, good passer, good rebounder for his position, and he could score with the best of any era. He won 6 championships and he didn't even play for two years in the prime of his career. So any statistical evaluation has to keep in mind that Jordan missed two years of peak performance.

    Lebron isn't done yet, he doesn't get to be in this conversation. He has that potential. There is a short list of guys that should be: Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russel, Shaq, Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, others I likely forgot. None of them are Jordan.


    I was pretty sad that even best player by position most of us had the exact same list. I can't remember if it was on this forum or not, but I took part in a similar discussion for football. Basically you make a starting lineup for the best all time team. Outside of everyone having Jerry Rice as a wideout, the lists were totally different.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    Except it isn't. Stats aren't as concrete as they are in, say, baseball. You can't just put some numbers in a formula and find the best player. That's why I don't accept the Wilt Chamberlain argument for best ever. It's really easy to pad stats when that's all you care about. This is all about what you see on the court. Jordan dominated people. Jordan owned games in a way I haven't seen since except for those two games from Lebron last year. Jordan had everything you could ask for from a player. Stifling defense, good passer, good rebounder for his position, and he could score with the best of any era. He won 6 championships and he didn't even play for two years in the prime of his career. So any statistical evaluation has to keep in mind that Jordan missed two years of peak performance.

    Lebron isn't done yet, he doesn't get to be in this conversation. He has that potential. There is a short list of guys that should be: Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russel, Shaq, Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, others I likely forgot. None of them are Jordan.


    I was pretty sad that even best player by position most of us had the exact same list. I can't remember if it was on this forum or not, but I took part in a similar discussion for football. Basically you make a starting lineup for the best all time team. Outside of everyone having Jerry Rice as a wideout, the lists were totally different.
    My point is that someone could easily say "well you never saw him, so your opinion is invalid" with players older than Jordan. People who say Jordan isn't the best may very well have valid reasons. That's why it's a cop out.

  4. #244
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    and he didn't even play for two years in the prime of his career.
    Because he was suspended for gambling /tinfoilhat

    I'm glad we are on the same Wilt page. I hate Wilt. All I need to know about Wilt is that he refused to play defense if he had 4-5 fouls since he refused to foul out. Wilt passed up shots like crazy one year because he wanted to lead the league in assists because he was obsessed with stats and records. The Lakers players voted AGAINST having an in his prime Wilt Chamberlain on his team 2-9. 9 guys didn't want to play with Wilt because he was a me first, me second, me third player. He was a great player, but man was he a tremendous douche.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-11-29 at 09:26 PM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by conscript View Post
    Because he was suspended for gambling /tinfoilhat

    I'm glad we are on the same Wilt page. I hate Wilt. All I need to know about Wilt is that he refused to play defense if he had 4-5 fouls since he refused to foul out. Wilt passed up shots like crazy one year because he wanted to lead the league in assists because he was obsessed with stats and records. The Lakers players voted AGAINST having an in his prime Wilt Chamberlain on his team 2-9. 9 guys didn't want to play with Wilt because he was a me first, me second, me third player. He was a great player, but man was he a tremendous douche.
    I don't think the Jordan suspension theory is THAT farfetched really. If he wasn't so murderously competitive it would be easier to comprehend him taking the best years of his career off to go on some failed baseball tangent. Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders managed to play football and baseball at the same time, if Jordan wanted to try AAA baseball that badly he had no need to retire for it. Someone would work around his schedule and let him play in the summers or something.

  6. #246
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck008 View Post
    I don't think the Jordan suspension theory is THAT farfetched really. If he wasn't so murderously competitive it would be easier to comprehend him taking the best years of his career off to go on some failed baseball tangent. Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders managed to play football and baseball at the same time, if Jordan wanted to try AAA baseball that badly he had no need to retire for it. Someone would work around his schedule and let him play in the summers or something.
    Ya I'm sure any minor league team would have jumped at that. The three theories about that year in descending order of what I believe:

    Theory #1) Jordan was suspended to deal with his gambling problems that the league was starting to believe were becoming a black eye for the most famous pro athlete in the world that would damage the league's image. In 1992, a drug dealer was found with a check from Jordan for over $50,000 from some stupid bet. Jordan lost almost a million dollars to a single guy in a weekend of golf gambling. In 93, Jordan was going to the casino to gamble after playoff games. It was believed he was betting on sporting events. Stern talked to Mike and told him to get help, he was also dealing with the death of his father at the time, and to take some time away. Jordan basically said as much in his retirement press conference when he said he would come back if Stern let him back in the league.

    Theory #2) Space Jam was based on actual events. In the summer of 1993, Michael Jordan was indeed kidnapped by aliens and they attempted to force him into more or less slavery by playing in their pro basketball league, the IBA or the Intergalactic Basketball Association, on the Nerdluck team the Nerdluck Blueskins. Jordan, being the gambling addict that he was, bet the aliens that he and four of his friends could defeat any five players the aliens put out on the court. If Jordan's team lost, Jordan would come along peacefully and would voluntarily play for the rest of his career for their team. The man at the Jordan press conference and that played baseball was an imposter. Seriously, Michael Jordan being that bad at baseball? No way would he hit .200, Mike was a beast. In July 1993, Jordan and four other players took on the Nerdluck team and won on a last second shot. The members of that team you ask? Well, Magic Johnson was there. Why do you think he still is kicking so strong 20+ years after his HIV diagnosis? The Nerdlucks cured him. Larry Bird was there obviously. In fact he got in a fight with a Nerdluck forward and nearly got ejected. David Robinson was there also. Do you remember seeing him play in 93? Exactly, no one remembers the 93 Spurs. Dennis Rodman was the 5th member of the team. He actually never came back as he fell in love with the Nerdluck culture (and their women) and his alien doppleganger is still posing as him today. That is why Rodman started to get real, real weird around then. The 6th man/high five guy was actually Bill Murray who reprised his role in the film adaptation. Jordan won and they all returned several months later except for Rodman.

    As for some widely held misconceptions about the real story, no the Looney Toons were not involved. They are cartoons and don't exist. They were added in to make the story more child friendly. Also Wayne Knight was not involved at all in the real events. He was written into the movie for comedy. And yes, the Nerdluck Blueskins is a racist team name just like the Washington Redskins.

    Theory #3) The most hyper-competitive athlete potentially in the history of American pro sports took a year off in his prime coming off three titles in a row with the opportunity to establish himself as the greatest ever and took the year off to play baseball.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-11-29 at 10:30 PM.

  7. #247
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    Conscript Michael Jordan is one of the biggest douche bags ever did you not hear his HoF speech just listen to people that played with him he was an asshole to everybody even Charles Barkley. As far as Wilt goes who cares if he wanted stats he got them players could have not let him get those stats but he did it anyways. One stat that is crazy is the avg mins he played in a season that is just crazy and I don't care which era you played in it would be physically hard on your body. Wilt didn't have a 3 point line or shot clock which the first being a huge advantage to Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan. That game that Kobe scored 80 points or whatever how many of those shots was a 3 point shot. Yeah the game has changed but in some parts it has helped people like Lebron and Kobe hell those 2 didn't even go to college how many more stats and points dod you think Wilt would have had if he didn't go to college.

  8. #248
    all those new era, start kobe, leborn etc etc, admin even in some old papers that they were born on MJ legend style, etc ye they are cool atm they pwn hard, but who showed them how to play? b4 mj there was no basketball right it is now. So ofc the greatest player ever is MJ, as a drakedog to locks in wow he may not be the best but defo first who showed how to play lock in vanila.

  9. #249
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    If you think Jordan started it all then you didn't watch Bird, Magic, Clyde the Glyde, Darryl Dawkins,Julius Erving, and Dominique Wilkins. Those people brought in tons of people to arenas the biggest thing Jordan did was make marketing a player an important part of basketball. MJ won multi titles so did most of the greats MJ had great shots so did the other greats. Michael Jordan just happened to play in an era between Magic and Bird and Kobe and Lebron who did Jordan have to compete with Shawn Kemp I mean he was a great dunker but that was it Magic and Bird was out of there prime when Jordan got big.
    Last edited by Skarsguard; 2012-11-30 at 12:06 AM.

  10. #250
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    I wish that I had seen Wilt, Russel, and Kareem play. Their numbers are all crazy. I am just wondering if they were as dominant as Shaq in his prime. I doubt we will ever see another player treat other guys like rag dolls the way Shaq did.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by skarsguard View Post
    If you think Jordan started it all then you didn't watch Bird, Magic, Clyde the Glyde, Darryl Dawkins,Julius Erving, and Dominique Wilkins. Those people brought in tons of people to arenas the biggest thing Jordan did was make marketing a player an important part of basketball. MJ won multi titles so did most of the greats MJ had great shots so did the other greats. Michael Jordan just happened to play in an era between Magic and Bird and Kobe and Lebron who did Jordan have to compete with Shawn Kemp I mean he was a great dunker but that was it.
    He was a great dunker and that's it? lol You should be banned from watching basketball.

  12. #252
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    I loved Shawn Kemp and the sonics I rooted for them in the early 90's Shawn Kemp is super fun to watch but he isn't a top 50 player.

  13. #253
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    I wish that I had seen Wilt, Russel, and Kareem play. Their numbers are all crazy. I am just wondering if they were as dominant as Shaq in his prime. I doubt we will ever see another player treat other guys like rag dolls the way Shaq did.
    The dominated like Shaq, hell probably to a greater extent, but most of their careers was spent playing against guys who were just laughably inferior. They were good, but if you put Shaq in their era he would demolish them.

    Quote Originally Posted by skarsguard View Post
    I loved Shawn Kemp and the sonics I rooted for them in the early 90's Shawn Kemp is super fun to watch but he isn't a top 50 player.
    Kemp could have been, but you're right he didn't end up getting himself to that level. Top 100 sure, top 75 maybe. Top 50, no way. Kemp shattered his legacy when Seattle fell apart thanks at least in part to him, that should have been the team facing off against Jordan every single year in the Finals, and he just completely pissed away his legacy in Cleveland.

    As for who he had to compete with in the mid-90s (say the years right after the Pistons), there was Hakeem and Houston (who immediately filled the gap when Jordan was suspended), great Seattle teams, Malone and Stockton for a couple years, Indiana had at least one very good team that should have knocked Chicago out of the playoffs in one of their title years, the Knicks should have been up there but like always were usually a massive fucking disappointment. The league wasn't devoid of talent.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-11-30 at 12:32 AM.

  14. #254
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    It wasn't devoid of talent it was devoid of top 20 players of all time except for Jordan. You could stick Hakeem in the top 20 maybe man he was great and Malone and Stockton but at that time Jordan had Pippen,Kerr,Rodman and a pretty good bench oh and a 7'2 center.
    As for Kemp he also let his body go he didn't have a good work ethic and had a bazillion kids.

  15. #255
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skarsguard View Post
    and had a bazillion kids.
    You forgot the best part, by a bazillion different women lol. He was definitely one of those woman in every port players. 7 kids, 6 women. I wish they got all those sort of athletes on a show and just had them try to name all their kids. Watching Cromartie do it on Hard Knocks was hilarious.

    Top 20 players who played when Jordan did:
    Hakeem Olajuwon
    David Robinson (debatable)
    Shaquille O'Neal
    Isiah Thomas (debatable, only cross into Jordan's dominant era for a couple years, was the reason he wasn't dominate earlier)
    Karl Malone (debatable)
    Charles Barkley
    John Stockton (debatable)

    That doesn't seem like that much of a lack of top 20 guys at all. It just seems like it since the league was so damn spread out thanks to expansion. Back when most of the "greatest of all time" guys were playing in the pre-Magic era the league was 8-17 teams.
    1960-61: 8 teams
    1970-71: 17 teams
    1980-81: 23 teams
    1990-91: 27 teams
    The league had a dilution of talent issue (still does just like all four of the big sports that over expanded), not necessarily a lack of top 20 players.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-11-30 at 01:33 AM.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by conscript View Post
    As for who he had to compete with in the mid-90s (say the years right after the Pistons), there was Hakeem and Houston (who immediately filled the gap when Jordan was suspended), great Seattle teams, Malone and Stockton for a couple years, Indiana had at least one very good team that should have knocked Chicago out of the playoffs in one of their title years, the Knicks should have been up there but like always were usually a massive fucking disappointment. The league wasn't devoid of talent.
    Just those teams had Hakeem, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, Malone, Miller, and Ewing. That's seven HoF caliber players. Not to mention Barkley and a couple decent Suns/Sixers teams. David Robinson and some ok Spurs teams. My beloved Hardaway/Mourning Heat teams. And he did play against those Bad Boy, Isiah Detroit teams. Once those guys retired the NBA went into a ratings funk they are only recently recovering from. His era is looked upon as sort of a golden age of talent.

    Jordan beat for his 6 titles:
    90-91- LA Lakers featuring Magic and Worthy
    91-92- Portland Trail Blazers featuring Clyde Drexler
    92-93- Phoenix Suns featuring Charles Barkley, who also had arguably his best season ever that year
    95-96- Seattle SuperSonics featuring Kemp and Payton. This was the 72 win season. They also only lost 3 times in the entire playoffs. Dominant.
    96-97- Utah Jazz featuring Malone and Stockton. Almost won 70 games again. This was the "flu game" year.
    97-98- Utah Jazz again.

    Those weren't nobody teams. I have never seen a team or a player utterly destroy and demoralize teams like that 96-97 team did and Jordan was ruthless. Was he also an arrogant asshole? Absolutely. He's a prick and I rooted against him every year. I hated him. I've also never seen anyone play like him.

  17. #257
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    Yeah but Jordan didn't have that equal and I don't mean he was so bad ass he didn't have an equal but Bird had Magic both are top 5 players of all time. Kobe has Lebron both could be put in that mention or will be at one point and Wilt had Russel which are the 2 best Centers of all time. Jordan didn't have anybody in there prime that was his equal Magic got HIV and Bird was getting to old think T.Duncan (still able to produce but not like they could in there prime). Yeah you had Hakeem,Malone,Ewing,and Robinson but they were centers it's like comparing Steve Nash to Kevin Garnet...Barkley was the only person I guess that could have been his rival but even then Jordan's teams was so much better then Barkley's. Jordan had Pippen which is considered a top 50 player who did Barkley have Dan Marley ehh hes good but not great. To tell you how good the Bulls were they went to the finals without Jordan... today's Lakers don't get to the finals without Kobe, today's Thunder doesn't get to the finals without Durant, and today's Bulls don't get to the finals without Rose same goes for Magic with D.Howard. I'm just saying it most teams had one really good player or even great player but didn't have a great player and 2-3 HoF's back then.
    Last edited by Skarsguard; 2012-11-30 at 03:30 AM.

  18. #258
    No, Jordan just made future hall of fame players look closer to average in comparison.

    Oh and Kareem is better than both Wilt and Russell. Russell is closer, but if Kareem isn't in your top 2 there is a problem. If your argument is that Jordan didn't have a top 5 guy to compete with, I agree, but you can say that about pretty much anyone in basketball history. I don't buy Kobe as top 5. Lebron is in the middle of his prime, so let's see how he turns out. Speaking of Kareem, you look down on Jordan for how good the Bulls were then, but Magic's Lakers were absurdly loaded.

  19. #259
    Moderator Skarsguard's Avatar
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    Ok Wilt was bigger stronger and faster then Russell...Russell has even said so himself he said Wilt was on a different level. Wilt scored 50 points on Russell 7 times and one time he scored 62 smh and that was without the 3 point line which helps players today avg 30ppg the most Russell scored on Wilt was 37 points. Russell said something to the fact that each time he faced Wilt he seemed to grow an inch every time and about 5 pounds. Yes Wilt was better then Russell...Russell just had the better team around him.

    Some Stats when the both played against each other Wilt avg 27.8 points and 29 rebounds Russell avg 14 points and 23 rebounds. No. of games 142

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubalus View Post
    People who say anything but Jordan never saw Jordan play in his prime ^^
    I watched Jordan, and I think Lebron's his equal or slightly in terms of peak value. We'll have to see how Lebron's career plays out before I can really comment on who's "greater", but I'd rather have 2012 Lebron than any player I've ever watched.

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