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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by samadxi View Post
    -At the moment, we have determined that haste have 6776 soft cap

    -Crit better than mastery in 5.1 end game gear, until we reached 4 T15 pieces

    Based on this information, we can reach a conclusion about stat priority

    end game T14 gear model:
    hit\exp cap>6776 hase>crit 34-35%(with Terror in the Mists trinket)> master 3%+

    end game t15 gear model
    hit\exp cap>6776 hase>master (with 4t15 and Rune of Re-Origination trinket )> crit

    These information based on many discussions on elitistjerks.com\mmo-champion sites Windwalker forum themes
    I really don't think you would want to stack mastery when you have the Rune of Re-Origination trinket. It seems like you're suggesting having something like 6776 haste, 10k mastery and 4k crit as an example.

    You will be popping Tigereye Brew during Rune of Re-Origination procs whenever possible. Therefore, 1 point of Critical Strike Rating would increase your critical strike chance most of the time while also providing 2 points of mastery rating during Tigereye Brew procs.

    If you consider Rune of Re-Origination has about a 1RPPM proc rate (plus or minus depending on ilvl version) with a 10 second duration then we can say that it will have an uptime of around 16.6%. So 1 unit of Critical Strike Rating would give you the following:

    - 1 Critical Strike Rating 83.4% of the time
    - 2 Mastery Rating for a percentage of all Tigereye Brew stacks consumed (maybe 50%?)

    On the other hand, 1 point of mastery rating on your gear would only give you 1 mastery rating for every stack of TEB you gain. Having 2 mastery rating 50% of the time is on its own equal to having 1 mastery rating 100% of the time. The extra crit rating you benefit from the other 83.4% of the time is just a bonus.

    The difficult thing to calculate here is to figure out in practice how many of our TEB stacks generated end up being spent during Rune of Re-Origination, and how many don't. If you're waiting on a Rune proc and you reach 20 stacks of Tigereye Brew, you'll probably pop 10 stacks to keep from wasting them. Stack generation is going to depend on the fight, 4pT15 procs, and our haste rating. I think on average we'll probably spend 40-60% of our total Tigereye Brew stacks gained during Rune of Re-Origination.

    I think the only question is whether we keep our haste and crit even in favor of a higher mastery on Rune of Re-Origination proc, or whether we allow one to get much higher than the other if we feel one stat is better than another. For example, at a low gear level we might want more haste than crit while keeping mastery just above our haste. At a very high gear level we might want more crit than haste to minimize wasted energy, and keep mastery just above crit.

    One thing to keep in mind about our estimated 6776 haste softcap is that it doesn't account for the energy loss from Rune of Re-Origination 16.6% of the time. When our haste rating is frequently dipping to 0 we will want a lot of it so we can recover from the gap in energy generation quickly. This is why I think we will always want to maintain close to a 1:1:1 ratio on our secondary stats even if it means going a bit over the 6776 haste softcap.

    Another thing we can do if maintaining a 1:1:1 ratio means our haste rating is getting too high is we can simply switch to Power Strikes which maintains a similar chi generation while allowing for a higher haste rating. It boldly goes places Ascension cannot go.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 03:16 PM ----------

    Regarding my question of how many of our Tigereye Brew charges will benefit from Rune of Re-Origination in practice:

    Here is a log of a Windwalker monk with Rune of Re-Origination in a 4 minute fight with Jin'rokh:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2b...?s=2642&e=2884
    Courtesy of Invection <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME>

    By filtering for Tigereye Brew and Re-Origination I can see that in this example he spent 100% of his Tigereye Brew stacks during Re-Origination. That's a lot more than the 50% I guessed it might be.

    Though he may have been worrying more about the mechanics of the fight and not optimizing his stack generation. As far as I can tell he spent 69 globals on Jab/EH in a 4 minute fight. I would think we could fill more globals than that if we stack enough haste to minimize FoF/Chi Wave. For example, he cast 9 Chi Waves but was only getting an average of 1.9 damaging hits per use of it. But at the same time the extra TEB stacks generated from doing so would probably result in us having to pop TEB outside of Rune of Re-Origination some of the time.

    Maybe we should aim to have enough haste to sync our TEB stack generation with the RPPM rate of our Rune of Re-Origination, and have more downtime to fill with FoF/Chi Wave? Maybe, but I don't think so. With FoF not being useful on many fights due to the mechanics, Chi Wave going from being very buggy to somewhat buggy, I think probably we should just focus on high haste stack generation.

    I really wish some of these lucky few would upload some logs of tank and spank fights like LFR Feng or Gara'jal. I'm looking at you, Runnmonk and Gondlem.
    Last edited by Moozhe; 2013-03-13 at 07:32 PM.
    Moozh <vodka> - Windwalker Monk - (US-Stormrage)

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    I really don't think you would want to stack mastery when you have the Rune of Re-Origination trinket. It seems like you're suggesting having something like 6776 haste, 10k mastery and 4k crit as an example.

    You will be popping Tigereye Brew during Rune of Re-Origination procs whenever possible. Therefore, 1 point of Critical Strike Rating would increase your critical strike chance most of the time while also providing 2 points of mastery rating during Tigereye Brew procs.

    If you consider Rune of Re-Origination has about a 1RPPM proc rate (plus or minus depending on ilvl version) with a 10 second duration then we can say that it will have an uptime of around 16.6%. So 1 unit of Critical Strike Rating would give you the following:

    - 1 Critical Strike Rating 83.4% of the time
    - 2 Mastery Rating for a percentage of all Tigereye Brew stacks consumed (maybe 50%?)

    On the other hand, 1 point of mastery rating on your gear would only give you 1 mastery rating for every stack of TEB you gain. Having 2 mastery rating 50% of the time is on its own equal to having 1 mastery rating 100% of the time. The extra crit rating you benefit from the other 83.4% of the time is just a bonus.

    The difficult thing to calculate here is to figure out in practice how many of our TEB stacks generated end up being spent during Rune of Re-Origination, and how many don't. If you're waiting on a Rune proc and you reach 20 stacks of Tigereye Brew, you'll probably pop 10 stacks to keep from wasting them. Stack generation is going to depend on the fight, 4pT15 procs, and our haste rating. I think on average we'll probably spend 40-60% of our total Tigereye Brew stacks gained during Rune of Re-Origination.

    I think the only question is whether we keep our haste and crit even in favor of a higher mastery on Rune of Re-Origination proc, or whether we allow one to get much higher than the other if we feel one stat is better than another. For example, at a low gear level we might want more haste than crit while keeping mastery just above our haste. At a very high gear level we might want more crit than haste to minimize wasted energy, and keep mastery just above crit.

    One thing to keep in mind about our estimated 6776 haste softcap is that it doesn't account for the energy loss from Rune of Re-Origination 16.6% of the time. When our haste rating is frequently dipping to 0 we will want a lot of it so we can recover from the gap in energy generation quickly. This is why I think we will always want to maintain close to a 1:1:1 ratio on our secondary stats even if it means going a bit over the 6776 haste softcap.

    Another thing we can do if maintaining a 1:1:1 ratio means our haste rating is getting too high is we can simply switch to Power Strikes which maintains a similar chi generation while allowing for a higher haste rating. It boldly goes places Ascension cannot go.
    To my understanding you want to use TeB close to as soon as Rune of Re-Origination procs and immidiatly cancel the Rune of Re-Origination after that as TeB doesn't seem to scale dynamicly. (Might have changed late PTR - early live) So its uptime will be lower then the 16.6% calculated, so that dip to 0 haste will be less then that. I do agree with the rest though.
    Quote Originally Posted by icedwarrior View Post
    Quit trying to use logic in a video game that mails you dragons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archpriest View Post
    Even the most delicious carrot will eventually be ignored if you don't get a single bite.

    And that, my dear friend, is why LFR is good, both in gameplay and gear. It lets you taste the carrot.

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Uthaslol View Post
    To my understanding you want to use TeB close to as soon as Rune of Re-Origination procs and immidiatly cancel the Rune of Re-Origination after that as TeB doesn't seem to scale dynamicly. (Might have changed late PTR - early live) So its uptime will be lower then the 16.6% calculated, so that dip to 0 haste will be less then that. I do agree with the rest though.
    Cannot cancel the proc.
    Moozh <vodka> - Windwalker Monk - (US-Stormrage)

  4. #724
    Field Marshal Uthaslol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    Cannot cancel the proc.
    Aaaaah, oke. Well that sucks. Then, yea I fully agree with you in every aspect. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by icedwarrior View Post
    Quit trying to use logic in a video game that mails you dragons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archpriest View Post
    Even the most delicious carrot will eventually be ignored if you don't get a single bite.

    And that, my dear friend, is why LFR is good, both in gameplay and gear. It lets you taste the carrot.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    I really don't think you would want to stack mastery when you have the Rune of Re-Origination trinket. It seems like you're suggesting having something like 6776 haste, 10k mastery and 4k crit as an example.

    You will be popping Tigereye Brew during Rune of Re-Origination procs whenever possible. Therefore, 1 point of Critical Strike Rating would increase your critical strike chance most of the time while also providing 2 points of mastery rating during Tigereye Brew procs.

    If you consider Rune of Re-Origination has about a 1RPPM proc rate (plus or minus depending on ilvl version) with a 10 second duration then we can say that it will have an uptime of around 16.6%. So 1 unit of Critical Strike Rating would give you the following:

    - 1 Critical Strike Rating 83.4% of the time
    - 2 Mastery Rating for a percentage of all Tigereye Brew stacks consumed (maybe 50%?)

    On the other hand, 1 point of mastery rating on your gear would only give you 1 mastery rating for every stack of TEB you gain. Having 2 mastery rating 50% of the time is on its own equal to having 1 mastery rating 100% of the time. The extra crit rating you benefit from the other 83.4% of the time is just a bonus.

    The difficult thing to calculate here is to figure out in practice how many of our TEB stacks generated end up being spent during Rune of Re-Origination, and how many don't. If you're waiting on a Rune proc and you reach 20 stacks of Tigereye Brew, you'll probably pop 10 stacks to keep from wasting them. Stack generation is going to depend on the fight, 4pT15 procs, and our haste rating. I think on average we'll probably spend 40-60% of our total Tigereye Brew stacks gained during Rune of Re-Origination.

    I think the only question is whether we keep our haste and crit even in favor of a higher mastery on Rune of Re-Origination proc, or whether we allow one to get much higher than the other if we feel one stat is better than another. For example, at a low gear level we might want more haste than crit while keeping mastery just above our haste. At a very high gear level we might want more crit than haste to minimize wasted energy, and keep mastery just above crit.

    One thing to keep in mind about our estimated 6776 haste softcap is that it doesn't account for the energy loss from Rune of Re-Origination 16.6% of the time. When our haste rating is frequently dipping to 0 we will want a lot of it so we can recover from the gap in energy generation quickly. This is why I think we will always want to maintain close to a 1:1:1 ratio on our secondary stats even if it means going a bit over the 6776 haste softcap.

    Another thing we can do if maintaining a 1:1:1 ratio means our haste rating is getting too high is we can simply switch to Power Strikes which maintains a similar chi generation while allowing for a higher haste rating. It boldly goes places Ascension cannot go.
    You post alot of text with useless information.

    In practice when star the fight and my 2 trinkets proc. I consume 14 TEB and use them with trinket proc 2x times.... With dps increase

  6. #726
    Holy crap, RealPPM trinkets got insane buffs.

    In a 10 minute training dummy test, I had a 34.6% uptime on the Renataki trinket (compared to 43.2% on H Bottle).



    This puts the Renataki trinket proc at an average of ~2300 Agility (0.346 * 1333 * 5), which is ~800 Agility more than a 510 H Bottle proc.

    I shudder to think how much better the buffed Rune of Reorigination is now.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Holy crap, RealPPM trinkets got insane buffs.

    In a 10 minute training dummy test, I had a 34.6% uptime on the Renataki trinket (compared to 43.2% on H Bottle).

    [snip]

    This puts the Renataki trinket proc at an average of ~2300 Agility (0.346 * 1333 * 5), which is ~800 Agility more than a 510 H Bottle proc.

    I shudder to think how much better the buffed Rune of Reorigination is now.
    The Renataki's Soul Charm had an RPPM of 0.56 with a 20 second duration. So it was supposed to have an uptime of around 18.7% if my math is right. Assuming they buffed the trinket by 10% like they said then the uptime would have become about 20.6% if the change was multiplicative or around 22% if the change is additive (a detail they always seem to miss).

    34.6% uptime seems pretty drastic. If they keep it that way then TEB stack generation per second will be a more important statistic in order to be able to keep feeding stacks to the procs to make them not a DPS loss. All the more reason to drop FoF/Chi Waves.
    Moozh <vodka> - Windwalker Monk - (US-Stormrage)

  8. #728
    Any tips on Heroic Horridon? I'm not sure how to compete with the multidotters and quick cleavers- SEF doesn't seem to pack that much of a punch. And what with all the movement from bloody sand traps/venom pools/etc, uptime feels a bit low. Am I just a bit pants? We only had like 3 pulls, so I'm sure I'll get into it, but any advice appreciated.

  9. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    In a 10 minute training dummy test, I had a 34.6% uptime on the Renataki trinket
    That's not really a conclusive test, though. I had uptime this high on Iron Qon last week, before the hotfix (albeit as a brewmaster). And it'd be extremely low on some other fights. You'd need to spend a few hours on the dummy to get any sort of reliable data about the average uptime (which in theory should be about 20.5% * your haste).

  10. #730
    Tought i posted this but i think i forgot to press reply :P

    I got Thunderforged Tia-tia the scything star wich is random drop from all bosses (we got it from jinrok too but i was sitout on first 3 bosses). Now i have Tia-tia in Mh and 504 Claw of shek´zeer on Oh. Should i replace Claw with some 522 weapon wich has higher weapon damage or does that 500 agi gem pull ahead?

  11. #731
    I am working on a similiar conundrum as Phixio:
    I picked up http://www.wowhead.com/item=96605 as Thunderforged weapon (ilvl 541).

    As far as I know, Weaponspeed isn't as much of a factor for us WWs - But just to ease my mind, I'd like to ask anyway: All well with having Zeeg's in MH, heroic Shek'zeer Claw (2x upgraded) in OH or should I swap them around? the 2.4 speed one is stronger in every aspect.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    The Renataki's Soul Charm had an RPPM of 0.56 with a 20 second duration. So it was supposed to have an uptime of around 18.7% if my math is right. Assuming they buffed the trinket by 10% like they said then the uptime would have become about 20.6% if the change was multiplicative or around 22% if the change is additive (a detail they always seem to miss).

    34.6% uptime seems pretty drastic. If they keep it that way then TEB stack generation per second will be a more important statistic in order to be able to keep feeding stacks to the procs to make them not a DPS loss. All the more reason to drop FoF/Chi Waves.
    RPPM scales with Haste. .56 turns into ~.616 from buff, .616 turns into ~.7392 with 20% haste. Although, still nowhere near 35% uptime. But something like 25% is reasonable and expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
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  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quotey View Post
    Any tips on Heroic Horridon? I'm not sure how to compete with the multidotters and quick cleavers- SEF doesn't seem to pack that much of a punch. And what with all the movement from bloody sand traps/venom pools/etc, uptime feels a bit low. Am I just a bit pants? We only had like 3 pulls, so I'm sure I'll get into it, but any advice appreciated.

    I had like 20pulls on it last night... My dps was lacking to say the least on that fight... I was able to stay at about 160K on my best pulls... But rogues in the raid were closer to the 200mark (at 4th gate on most pulls)

    Also... RoR in practice is really lack luster for me... I have the 528 one too. I have been starting the heroic fights with it on, with about 5k haste and 8k Mastery buffed. The numbers I have been seeing with it have been nothing to write home about. I have been trying saving TEB procs and also using them on CD.

    Anyone else feeling the RoR isnt all it's cracked up to be in practice, or am I just on dope?
    Last edited by Buju; 2013-03-14 at 02:37 PM.

  14. #734
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    The power of RoR depends partially on getting faster TEB stacks through the 4T15 bonus, and also on having lots of secondary stats on your gear = high ilvl and many sockets. So as you gear up more the coming weeks, it should get better.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 04:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phixio View Post
    Tought i posted this but i think i forgot to press reply :P

    I got Thunderforged Tia-tia the scything star wich is random drop from all bosses (we got it from jinrok too but i was sitout on first 3 bosses). Now i have Tia-tia in Mh and 504 Claw of shek´zeer on Oh. Should i replace Claw with some 522 weapon wich has higher weapon damage or does that 500 agi gem pull ahead?
    Especially for the main hand, weapon damage is king. 500 agi equals about 150 weapon dps, so if the weapon dps increase is over 150, then use the higher weapon dps one. For the offhand it's different, since offhand weapon dps is only worth about half of main hand weapon dps. So it might be viable to keep using the weapon with the 500 agi gems a bit longer in your offhand. Like how using normal claws of shekzeer with gem in offhand was preferable over using a heroic garakal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 04:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ruga View Post
    I am working on a similiar conundrum as Phixio:
    I picked up http://www.wowhead.com/item=96605 as Thunderforged weapon (ilvl 541).

    As far as I know, Weaponspeed isn't as much of a factor for us WWs - But just to ease my mind, I'd like to ask anyway: All well with having Zeeg's in MH, heroic Shek'zeer Claw (2x upgraded) in OH or should I swap them around? the 2.4 speed one is stronger in every aspect.
    Always go for the highest weapon dps weapon in the mainhand. Each point of weapon dps for the main hand is worth roughly 3x as much as 1 agility. For the offhand it's about half that value (1.5 wdps for 1 agi).
    Last edited by Mihir; 2013-03-14 at 03:45 PM.

  15. #735
    Thank you Mihir, so I was right in my assumption.

    Also, has anyone come across an up to date trinket list (including the recent hotfixes)?

  16. #736
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    I just did a list for my personal use working off the numbers on Wowhead. I'm not quite sure how up-to-date those are so I'm a little reluctant to publish it just yet.
    I'll try to verify the numbers tomorrow and publish it if I'm satisfied with it.

    So far I have Xuen, Terror, Renetaki's, Bottle, RoR, Bad Juju, Talisman of Bloodlust, and the Shado-Pan Trinket, all for iLvl 502, 522 and 535 (where applicable). Any other interesting ones I forgot?

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    I really wish some of these lucky few would upload some logs of tank and spank fights like LFR Feng or Gara'jal. I'm looking at you, Runnmonk and Gondlem.
    Later that night I queued for Mogushan LFR. It was not my best fight. Very bad and surprising pull by the LFR Tank, no Weakened Armor Debuff on the Boss, and I dropped Tiger Power once or twice Tired after some hours of hardmode progressing

    I'm not allowed to post links here. So you have to copy&paste them. Sorry for that

    Log: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-cysea2us6gy4w3x6/sum/damageDone/?s=151&e=361
    Armory: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/mannoroth/kabator/advanced

    I will add some more logs later

  18. #738
    I've played around with Rune quite a bit since I picked it up, mostly found that stacking mastery is a bad idea. More or less for the reasons Moozhe pointed out, but essentially your mastery only benefits you when you're actually going to press TEB. A significant portion of your used TEB stacks will be during the Rune proc, and crit and haste convert to mastery for those, and obviously if you're not using many TEB stacks outside of the proc the mastery on your gear doesn't do anything for you. I've tried a variety of approaches with it but generally speaking I think the approach is either comfortable haste level -> as much crit as you can get while keeping your mastery 1 point higher, or switch to power strikes and keep all three stats about equal with mastery marginally higher.

  19. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakhu View Post
    I just did a list for my personal use working off the numbers on Wowhead. I'm not quite sure how up-to-date those are so I'm a little reluctant to publish it just yet.
    I'll try to verify the numbers tomorrow and publish it if I'm satisfied with it.

    So far I have Xuen, Terror, Renetaki's, Bottle, RoR, Bad Juju, Talisman of Bloodlust, and the Shado-Pan Trinket, all for iLvl 502, 522 and 535 (where applicable). Any other interesting ones I forgot?
    So, if I understand the patch notes correctly they smoothed out the proc chances for the trinkets but not the PPM values. That shouldn't have any effect on the average uptime of the trinkets, should it? Even the increase in proc rate should have an insignificant effect on the uptime (on average) if they've kept the PPM the same.

    Am I missing something?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 11:47 AM ----------

    First provisional Ranking for the trinkets.



    Stat weights provided by Mihir (as usual) and I even took Mihir's Haste, Crit and Mastery values from his armory for the calculation of the RoRO since they reflect the patch changes better than mine.

    For reference: with my own values (iLvl 487, Haste > Crit > Mastery) RoRO scores about 1.5k points less.

    Edit: These numbers don't account for hitting caps when equipping those trinkets which is especially noteworthy with the Shado-Pan trinket.

    Edit2: Not included in the calculation is the damage of the Voodoo Gnomes. I wasn't sure how to account for that.
    Last edited by hakhu; 2013-03-15 at 10:52 AM.

  20. #740
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    The gnomes dont do a noticeable amount of damage, about 1k per proc.

    Any chance you could add a 2/2 upgraded Bottle of Infinite Stars as well? (510ilvl)

    And, Renataki's has a ton of expertise which makes hitting the caps an issue as well (i got a renatakis in my bag but equipping it would put me at 11% expertise).
    Last edited by Mihir; 2013-03-15 at 01:07 PM.

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