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  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    The gnomes dont do a noticeable amount of damage, about 1k per proc.
    It should still somehow factor into the score, to properly reflect the value of the trinket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    Any chance you could add a 2/2 upgraded Bottle of Infinite Stars as well?
    The iLvl 510 Bottle comes to a score of 9904.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    And, Renataki's has a ton of expertise which makes hitting the caps an issue as well (i got a renatakis in my bag but equipping it would put me at 11% expertise).
    True, I didn't think of the cap for WW. I usually play BM so 11% expertise is not an issue for me.

  2. #742
    Woah is the Talisman really that far ahead? and I assume that list includes the rppm trinket fix/change.

  3. #743
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    As I said, it's only that far ahead if you need all that hit and you probably won't, especially with increasing iLvls.

    As for the RPPM changes: They did not change the PPM, so on average (which is all I can account for in a spreadsheet) they are still the same. They just changed the reliability of the proc. Before your fight could go ------XXX and you felt like your trinket was worthless, now you fight will look something like --X--X--X. So the average proc rate is the same but it will feel much smoother. Usually probability can be a b***h, now it can't anymore.

    I decided to publish the spreadsheet on Google Docs. You can download it and enter your own stat weights, stats and trinkets. The rows for new trinkets are prepared with the fomula (except for different versions of RoRO, that's a different beast). The list on the second sheet is static meaning it won't reflect your changes. I just copied the current list and sorted it by score.

    Have fun.

    And just to be safe: I don't claim to be 100% correct with the values. If you find errors I'd be grateful if you'll let me know.

    PS: You can also adjust values for existing trinket to reflect reforges.
    Last edited by hakhu; 2013-03-15 at 12:54 PM.

  4. #744
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    It's probably better to value the hit/expertise(/haste) on the trinkets as equal value to the next highest stat. As you will be capped on hit/exp(/haste) no matter what trinket you use, they dont "add" any of those values in practice. Using a hit trinket will mean you can use X more mastery/crit(/haste) elsewhere on your gear, so those are the real stats that are increasing. Assuming hit/exp(/haste) are all capped, that would be mastery or crit in an ideal situation (and you can't always reforge perfectly so the practical value might be even lower).
    Last edited by Mihir; 2013-03-15 at 01:13 PM.

  5. #745
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    Good point.

    Well, now that you have the spreadsheet you can try adjusting those values. ;-)
    I just did and it changes the list quite a bit. Shado-Pan is still top though. 510 Bottle second.

  6. #746
    I made a Google Spreadsheet with the actual values of each trinket averaged out based on uptime.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...mc&usp=sharing

    EDIT: Updated to round to two decimal places for more precise calculations. Double checked the average time to proc as well. Vicious Talisman/Bottle/Terror all seem to share the same proc chance which is probably an average of 1.5 seconds based on the handful of logs I've checked.

    I did not list the Talisman of Bloodlust or the Rune of Re-Origination. The Talisman of Bloodlust appears horrible for us, even worse when you factor in that it will throw off our Rune of Re-Origination. The Rune of Re-Origination is an automatic choice on most fights, and it may be an automatic disqualification on other fights where you need to time your burst for progression. But outside of encounter mechanics I don't think there is a need to weight it against the other trinkets.

    This tier we can theoretically avoid hit/exp on every slot except for the fact that 4 of our 5 tier pieces have either hit or expertise, so we're guaranteed to have at least 3 pieces with hit/exp if we go for 4pT15. I think that Renataki's Soul Charm and the Vicious Talisman have their places, but realistically when we are in full heroic gear we're going to want to pick Thunderforged 541 pieces over 535 pieces and the hope of getting all non-hit/exp pieces is naive at best.

    We also want to factor in that with Rune of Re-Origination we will most likely be gemming exp/other in red gem slots, and hit/other in blue gem slots. At 160 rating per slot this quickly adds up to our 2550 cap. Sure we could gem agility instead of expertise to make room but all we'd really be doing is choosing 80 agility over 160 of a stat which almost triple dips with Rune of Re-Origination (acting as itself around 80% of the time, and acting as twice itself in mastery close to 100% of the time).

    Vicious Talisman + 510 Bottle are probably best until we gain another 10-20 ilvls, then I think we'll want either the 535 or 541 Bad Juju unless we just happened to get amazingly lucky with non hit/exp drops.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 01:26 PM ----------

    EDIT: Just saw the spreadsheet hahku posted. I manually calculated some of the thunderforged stats of items so feel free to add them to your spreadsheet.
    Last edited by Moozhe; 2013-03-15 at 06:53 PM.
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  7. #747
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    I just had a look at your spreadsheet. Good work!

    I noticed we have lots of different values. :-) I'll be going over those and adjusting my values where necessary. Thanks for the additional iLvl stats. I'll be adding those soon(tm). Volleyball training first.

    Thanks to your spreadsheet I noticed an error in my calculations for Renataki's. You're rounding a bit much for my taste ... so I fixed my values without rounding, but using the same formula as you.

    I'll have a look at the other differences later. I have not accounted for any time to proc at all. I was operating on the assumption that RPPM meant just that ... how often it procs every minute on average. So time to proc should not have any influence, should it?

  8. #748
    hakhu: I only factored in time to proc for non-RPPM trinkets. Terror, Bottle, etc. I looked at Patchwerk type logs for those to see how many seconds there were from proc to proc. It might be off by a second or two so it's worth saying that the uptimes are +/- 1%.

    I wonder what stat weight are we supposed to give the mastery that comes from the Rune of Re-Origination?

    Based on SimC and Salty's spreadsheet, we usually see mastery rating being worth approximately half of agility. This is considering the weight of having mastery rating all the time even though we only use it some of the time. How do we define what "some of the time" is? On a patchwerk fight I think we can achieve around 45% uptime of Tigereye Brew (10 stacks). Closer to 40% if we are weaving in Chi Wave and FoF. 30% is probably not a bad number for real world use. So if mastery is worth half of agility when we only benefit from it around 30% of the time, how much is it worth if we can benefit from it 100% of the time?

    Since I know it's possible to spend 100% of your TEB stacks generated during Rune procs as I've seen logs where people have done just that, it could be true that the mastery from Rune of Re-Origination procs is worth 3.3 times as much as the mastery you have passively on your gear, because the mastery on your gear is being diluted by only being used around 30% of the time.

    I modified hakhu's spreadsheet as follows:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&usp=sharing

    This isn't meant to replace his spreadsheet just a suggestion for how to treat the Rune proc. It assumes you have more mastery than haste/crit and doesn't calculate dynamically based on that.

    It also assumes you can spend all your TEB stacks during the Rune proc regardless of the RPPM rate. So the higher ilvl versions would be a downgrade if they didn't have more agility. If you are already at the point where you are using a ilvl 522 Rune and you can't feed all the procs with 10 stacks, let's say you're averaging a 6 stack per proc, then getting a higher ilvl version might just mean you average a 5 stack per proc. Unless you have excess Tigereye Brew stacks, you don't need the higher ilvl versions, they're almost sidegrades. It all depends on the synergy between your haste and your trinket RPPM, which I haven't modeled here.
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  9. #749
    The theoretical maximum uptime of 10 stack TeB is 50%, because it takes 30 Chi to generate 10 stacks of TeB (Jab 15x + 15 BoK in 30 seconds). This means you should always have a 10 stack TeB ready to go for when your trinkets proc, if the sum proc rate of your trinkets no more than 2 PPM.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 04:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    It also assumes you can spend all your TEB stacks during the Rune proc regardless of the RPPM rate. So the higher ilvl versions would be a downgrade if they didn't have more agility. If you are already at the point where you are using a ilvl 522 Rune and you can't feed all the procs with 10 stacks, let's say you're averaging a 6 stack per proc, then getting a higher ilvl version might just mean you average a 5 stack per proc. Unless you have excess Tigereye Brew stacks, you don't need the higher ilvl versions, they're almost sidegrades. It all depends on the synergy between your haste and your trinket RPPM, which I haven't modeled here.
    The theoretical maximum uptime of 10 stack TeB is 50%, because it takes 30 Chi to generate 10 stacks of TeB (Jab 15x + 15 BoK in 30 seconds). This means you should always have a 10 stack TeB ready to go for when your trinkets proc, if the sum proc rate of your trinkets no more than 2 PPM.

  10. #750
    I have thought about how to logically equate regular mastery with "proc" mastery and the way I look at it is this:

    When you have passive mastery on your gear, it is contributing to 100% of all Tigereye Brew stacks you generate and consume.

    When you have active mastery from a Rune of Re-Origination proc, it can still contribute to up to 100% of all Tigereye Brew stacks you generate and consume.

    So it is not outlandish to say that a Rune of Re-Origination proc with the right stat combination on your gear is equivalent to 20k to 30k passive mastery.

    As a point of reference, these are the uptimes and proc rates we can expect from each version of the Rune of Re-Origination:

    Heroic Thunderforged (541) - 1.14 RPPM - 19.04% uptime
    Heroic (535) - 1.08 RPPM - 18.00% uptime
    Normal Thunderforged (528) - 1.01 RPPM - 16.83% uptime
    Normal (522) - 0.9569 RPPM - 15.95% uptime
    LFR (502) - 0.7943 RPPM - 13.24% uptime

    This is based on the original 0.92 RPPM value, the 10% buff which makes it a 1.012 RPPM, and the various RPPM multipliers which are posted here.

    EDIT: Fixed uptimes to account for 10 second duration instead of 20 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    The theoretical maximum uptime of 10 stack TeB is 50%, because it takes 30 Chi to generate 10 stacks of TeB (Jab 15x + 15 BoK in 30 seconds).
    My 45% was accounting for refreshing Tiger Palm and human error/latency/lag. 50% is theoretically possible but 45% is more realistic.
    Last edited by Moozhe; 2013-03-15 at 10:38 PM.
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  11. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    As a point of reference, these are the uptimes and proc rates we can expect from each version of the Rune of Re-Origination:

    Heroic Thunderforged (541) - 1.14 RPPM - 38.08% uptime
    Heroic (535) - 1.08 RPPM - 36.00% uptime
    Normal Thunderforged (528) - 1.01 RPPM - 33.67% uptime
    Normal (522) - 0.9569 RPPM - 31.90% uptime
    LFR (502) - 0.7943 RPPM - 26.48% uptime

    This is based on the original 0.92 RPPM value, the 10% buff which makes it a 1.012 RPPM, and the various RPPM multipliers which are posted here.
    I get half those uptimes in my calculations. Keep in mind that the duration has been reduced to 10sec (from 20sec).

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 11:41 PM ----------

    I've adjusted the numbers in my spreadsheet to reflect your time-to-proc and added the missing iLvls. I've also updated the resulting list on Sheet2 after those changes.

    I agree that RoRO is worth more than what I calculate because it's a very situational trinket but to put this into numbers seems very vague to me. It's already pretty high up there if you are able to use it in combination with TEB than it becomes even better. I'd probably leave it at that.

    BTW, I can't follow how you come up with 28k mastery in your modified spreadsheet, even after your explanations.

    For those here who missed the link earlier: 5.2 Trinket Spreadsheet

  12. #752
    So from a basic starting standpoint, is it worth using Renetaki's Soul Charm and the Viscous Tailsman from rep until you get a normal Bad Juju? I mean that's a lot of Hit and Exp just coming from those 2 things...but at the same time, since my guild is lackluster, might be a while before I see Bad Juju (good luck on Rune), and it's not like there's too many other options for VP usage.

  13. #753
    Once we get a Rune of Reorigination, is it better to start gemming Expertise + X in red sockets, while reforging all Hit / Expertise off gear?

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by hakhu View Post
    BTW, I can't follow how you come up with 28k mastery in your modified spreadsheet, even after your explanations.
    If you have 7k haste, 7k crit, and 7001 mastery then the proc on Rune of Re-Origination would be 28k mastery, -7k haste, and -7k crit.

    What I was trying to explain is that when assigning mastery with a stat weight of roughly half of agility we are already simulating and accounting for the uptime and the fact that it only benefits us when we spend stacks of Tigereye Brew. Mastery is not worth half of agility during the 15 seconds that you pop Tigereye Brew, it is worth half of agility when you average it out over time.

    You are averaging its value out twice in your spreadsheet.

    The only modifier you need to apply to the mastery proc on the Rune of Re-Origination is the percentage of your Tigereye Brew stacks gained which you consume during the Rune of Re-Origination proc. This is probably going to be between 60% and 100% depending on the which version of the trinket you have (different RPPMs), the encounter, your haste, how you do your rotation, and RNG factors like 4pT15 procs and Combo Breaker procs. I've already shown logs where this value can be 100%.

    So even if you multiply the proc value by 60% you're still going to get (in my example) 16.8k mastery.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 10:57 PM ----------

    Also, hakhu:

    You aren't factoring in that RPPM values scale with haste. I updated my spreadsheet with values that roughly reflects the haste we have at our softcap of around 6800. All of the RPPM trinkets are much more competitive when you factor that in.
    Last edited by Moozhe; 2013-03-16 at 02:58 AM.
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  15. #755
    For Tigereye brew, are we now using this on cooldown or still waiting till it hits 10 stacks?

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by xezar View Post
    For Tigereye brew, are we now using this on cooldown or still waiting till it hits 10 stacks?
    Your goal is to line it up with trinket procs/Boss increased damage taken phases to get the most out of it and preventing reaching 20 stacks and loosing out on additional ones.

  17. #757
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    Added Haste calculation for the PPM trinkets. It has an option to include the 10% raid haste buff since most of us are probably interested in the raid performance of the trinkets.

    Damn ... this was supposed to be just a simple list of the trinkets so I would have to calculate the numbers only once.
    Last edited by hakhu; 2013-03-16 at 09:33 PM.

  18. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakhu View Post
    It has an option to include the 10% raid haste buff since most of us are probably interested in the raid performance of the trinkets.
    Only true haste buffs affect the RPPM procs. Anything that gives you only attack speed without actually increasing your energy regen will not have any effect on it.

  19. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crevan View Post
    Only true haste buffs affect the RPPM procs. Anything that gives you only attack speed without actually increasing your energy regen will not have any effect on it.
    Damn, I even read that blue post at the time. Must have slipped my mind.

    Removing the option now ... Thanks!

  20. #760
    So I have a question about SEF. Does anyone have good data on good times to use it? Theoretically speaking I would think you should always have 1 up, even on single target fights since you and your spirit do 60% of your normal dmg, so it would come out to 120% of your normal damage, right? Or are there special circumstances for when you and your spirit are attacking the same target? I suppose the best time to use it would be on the dogs in MSV, or similar fights, right? But would it ultimately be worth using on EVERY boss?

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