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  1. #141
    seems that due to mastery procs we are just spamming finishers at high levels.. thus crit and not as much haste .. due no energy wasting as it is .. tho i have not had this issue at all

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    Did askmrrobot also explain where they got the numbers? or are you just following them blindly without knowing why...

    AMR has been known to have inaccurate stat values, and WW is still very new.
    You are right, but since i tried it on dummies several times, and i pulled +1k dps with crit build. At least for now, at this gear lvl, it seems to scale well. I invite you to try it too

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyz View Post
    You are right, but since i tried it on dummies several times, and i pulled +1k dps with crit build. At least for now, at this gear lvl, it seems to scale well. I invite you to try it too
    Can any1 try this out? Would be sweet...
    And is the exp cap of 7,5% mandatory and i should sacrifice haste for it?
    AMR is giving me a exp value of 6,1%... I think its a bit low isnt it?

  4. #144
    Edited: Nm.
    Last edited by scorpious1109; 2012-10-04 at 11:42 PM.

  5. #145
    We're a bit slow on raiding progression (we have a lot of folks who are slow at getting to 90 or getting geared up) but we got Stone Guard tonight (we were 8/8 HM in DS). I didn't plan to go WW for raiding but things worked out in a way that it worked best for us. I was the only melee and topped the meters against some pretty competitive folks who were equally geared.

    I found that at the start of a fight, that is where we'll most likely have resource issues. It is very tough to dump energy, and Mastery procs really work against you rather than help you (a Mastery proc means you can't dump Chi or Energy very efficiently). Once you get into the fight, it gets much better.

    We also don't have huge CDs like, say, a Hunter, (our only CD besides Xuen you can use at the start of the fight is Energizing Brew, and our resource situation makes popping EB at the start difficult) so at the beginning of the fight, even if you pop Xuen, you aren't going to get big numbers. The same goes for Herolust-we're already so close to getting energy capped that we have a tough time getting the full benefit out of Herolust. Fists of Fury is also difficult to use right out of the gate, thanks to energy dumping issues and needing to get up our Tiger Palm buff.

    That said, our single target and AOE feels strong but balanced, and we have tons of defensive CDs and mobility which is great for a melee. Expel Harm is seeing SO MUCH use! Not as much utility as, say, Ret, but its fine. The Crit buff is actually a bit more difficult to come by so that buff is actually pretty helpful to raid comps, especially in 10 man.

  6. #146
    Mechagnome Jaja's Avatar
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    How are you guys using your Tigerseye Brew?

    I was just using it whenever I got a chance or before I popped Xuen or Energizing Brew. Should I be waiting for high stacks constantly or just popping it with cd's no matter the stacks.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...12155#Jabajinx

    My logs for Stone Guard last night, which we killed on the famous Last Pull. I found Fists of Fury hard to use with all the void zone and traps on the floor (constant moving). WTB glyph that lets me channel while moving tbh.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaja View Post
    How are you guys using your Tigerseye Brew?

    I was just using it whenever I got a chance or before I popped Xuen or Energizing Brew. Should I be waiting for high stacks constantly or just popping it with cd's no matter the stacks.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...12155#Jabajinx

    My logs for Stone Guard last night, which we killed on the famous Last Pull. I found Fists of Fury hard to use with all the void zone and traps on the floor (constant moving). WTB glyph that lets me channel while moving tbh.
    I try to use TEB during trinket procs as long as theres more than 5 stacks available. Ideally I want to have around 7-9 stacks when I do, though. Depends a lot on the situation.

    And when I know boss is gonna die in the next 10-15 seconds I usually pop it just so I'll end the fight with 0 stacks (as in not to waste any).

  8. #148
    There's some math over at EJ that basically says "it doesn't matter" when it comes to Tigereye Brew. All you really need to do is make sure you don't cap your stacks. It definitely helps to pop it during AOE situtaions (especially if you have high stacks, obviously). That's probably when I notice it the most. Otherwise, I've got a WA set to show me when its at about 8 stacks, and I'll use it either right then and there or wait for something like Heroism, Xuen, Potions or whatever. Sometimes if I can I'll try to line it up with a Fists of Fury or a Rising Sun Kick.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyz View Post
    Herm, does anyone wanna talk about the Crit Building? I've seen it online and on "Ask Mr.Robot"... It seems that hit=exp (7,5%) > crit > agi > haste > mastery is stacking better than haste>crit... at least for what i texted on hcs and on dummies... Any explanations?
    The weights we have are based on tests we ran with SimC 505-1. The developers have let us know that they made some major changes to Fists of Fury in the next release, so we will be looking at the weights for this spec again as soon as the code for 505-2 is tightened up.
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  10. #150
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaja View Post
    How are you guys using your Tigerseye Brew?

    I was just using it whenever I got a chance or before I popped Xuen or Energizing Brew. Should I be waiting for high stacks constantly or just popping it with cd's no matter the stacks.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...12155#Jabajinx

    My logs for Stone Guard last night, which we killed on the famous Last Pull. I found Fists of Fury hard to use with all the void zone and traps on the floor (constant moving). WTB glyph that lets me channel while moving tbh.
    Some quirks I noticed with TEB:
    - Pulling a raidboss will remove any saved up TEB stacks and buffs you had, so it's not possible to pre-stack before the bossfight.
    - Combo Breaker: Tiger Palm does not increase your TEB stacks. CB:BoK does increase them however.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 01:44 AM ----------

    Also: If you FoF with an enemy targeted, the 5th (last) tick of FoF will get clipped....
    Last edited by Mihir; 2012-10-04 at 11:45 PM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    - Pulling a raidboss will remove any saved up TEB stacks and buffs you had, so it's not possible to pre-stack before the bossfight.
    Technically it's still possible, similar to prepotting. Just need to use it right before the pull, the damage buff will not be removed when boss is engaged.

  12. #152
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    The weights we have are based on tests we ran with SimC 505-1. The developers have let us know that they made some major changes to Fists of Fury in the next release, so we will be looking at the weights for this spec again as soon as the code for 505-2 is tightened up.
    I just checked out these new changes, and one of them is changing FoF to scale with haste (which it does not). So don't put too much faith in these new changes yet :P

  13. #153
    I had no issue with energy capping while playing intelligently at low ger levels on beta. The issue arises around 6.6-6.7k haste rating where you literally can't dump fast enough during bloodlust, and haste loses a significant amount of value because of it. The crit build you're seeing most likely came from the heroic profile, where it has roughly 6.7k haste already causing the weights to flip.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    I just checked out these new changes, and one of them is changing FoF to scale with haste (which it does not). So don't put too much faith in these new changes yet :P
    Are you sure about that? I thought so too on beta, but on live my castbar addon (named castbars iirc) shows a reduced channel time for FoF with more haste. I'm going to test this with exact time stamps in the log when I'm home from work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir
    Also: If you FoF with an enemy targeted, the 5th (last) tick of FoF will get clipped....
    And I was wondering where that one tick per FoF was lost every time.

  15. #155
    I think a lot of mediocre and even good WWs are overly obsessed about FoF. It is so difficult to use for DPS gain both rotationally and positionally that most of the players would probably see their DPS rise when dropping it altogether and just perfecting the rotation without it.

    Here are few situations where using FoF will probably lead to a DPS loss:
    • Having Rising Sun Kick cooldown finish during channel
    • Having Tiger Palm debuff drop during channel
    • You or tank being forced to move during channel
    • Capping energy during channel
    • Having Energizing Brew cooldown finish during channel

    To prove my point, here's my log from Wednesday where I was initially ranked 39 (dropped to 61 since then) in Stone Guard without ever touching FoF. Note that we didn't even have 10% melee haste buff for this fight, which would've increased my DPS significantly.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b1houbymodc67u3z/
    Last edited by Illitti; 2012-10-05 at 05:33 PM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    The weights we have are based on tests we ran with SimC 505-1. The developers have let us know that they made some major changes to Fists of Fury in the next release, so we will be looking at the weights for this spec again as soon as the code for 505-2 is tightened up.
    Is the FoF change coming this tuesday or something?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    Having Rising Sun Kick cooldown finish during channel
    Having Tiger Palm debuff drop during channel
    Capping energy during channel
    Having Energizing Brew cooldown finish during channel
    All of which are easily countered by paying attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    You or tank being forced to move during channel
    Which is why you taper it off when he's about to move. Much like how you didn't pop cooldowns during low uptime periods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    To prove my point, here's my log from Wednesday where I was initially ranked 39 (dropped to 61 since then) in Stone Guard without ever touching FoF:
    Yes it isn't critical, but it is still something.
    And it isn't that hard to weave in; http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jxfwy79ex21ufqgq/
    Also lol@wipes. God we were drinking paint thinner that night.


    I honestly see this situation as something similar to Combat Rogues and rupture. Something minor, something more difficult, but not overly that hard but not game breaking either.
    Last edited by Stuffs; 2012-10-05 at 05:38 PM.
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  17. #157
    One benefit to using FoF is that it is our biggest Chi spender, which stacks Tigereye Brew faster. This is in addition to it being our 2nd highest damage per ability spells, and giving us a period to regenerate some energy while doing damage.

    FoF is not an automatic win. It has an opportunity cost associated with it. My gripes are that it is awkward, and it sucks for AOE.

  18. #158
    The obsession with FoF is mostly because of a blizz statement, they want us to use it rotationally. It is only a very small DPS gain right now, but if to much WWs drop it out of their rotation, they'll probably buff it (or nerf other spells) to get to their goal. And its the most "complicated" ability to use, as others have pointed out, to maximize our dps, so understanding the mechanics of the ability is important and using it to its maximal potency is important.

    To my tests: Though the castbar indicates a shorter channel time, thus FoF scaling with haste, the real behaviour is really strange. E.g. a test selfbuffed, with about 10% haste on my gear. The two lines on the top speak for themself, the numbers in the bottom are the damage ticks coming out.
    Code:
    10/5 22:11:57.430  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF
    10/5 22:12:01.650  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF
    
    10/5 22:11:57.647  
    10/5 22:11:58.515  
    10/5 22:11:59.739  
    10/5 22:12:00.553  
    10/5 22:12:01.650
    Those were the 5 FoF ticks, the log isn't that accurate, but overall we have ~ 1 second per tick, indicating it not scaling with haste. The fists of fury "buff" on myself was even a bit longer than 4 seconds.

    Now with BL +gear:
    Code:
    10/5 22:32:01.497  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF
    10/5 22:32:04.441  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,0x048000000413F8F9,"Forsta",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF
    
    10/5 22:32:01.693  
    10/5 22:32:02.885  
    10/5 22:32:03.656  
    10/5 22:32:04.441
    Overall the cast time of the spell was reduced, but somehow one tick got lost. The ~1.2 seconds between the first two ticks is really strange. I double checked the logs and checked it in Skada, there were only 4 ticks.

    So concluding: Yes, it does scale with haste. How? There would have to be much more testing, especially where one tick gets lost (as you see, it is in both cases not the last tick just not coming out, and in both cases I had the dummy targeted) and with which haste effects the spell scales.
    Last edited by Forsta; 2012-10-05 at 09:04 PM.

  19. #159
    Did it do the same amount of damage in both tests, all other things being equal? If so, it doesn't scale with haste (?)

    4.22 sec channel time vs. 2.944 sec channel. It might be doing the same amount of damage in a smaller time window, which is technically more damage per second, but equal damage per cast (which also means damage per chi spent is the same in both cases).

    This means different things to different playstyles, but until it hits harder, it's still situational for me.

  20. #160
    Stood in the Fire Ujio's Avatar
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    doesnt matter
    Last edited by Ujio; 2012-10-07 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Nvm working for me now must have either been extreme RNG or i borked something.
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