Why do HC raiding guilds say 'no' to females?

[Theholypally]

Its not because they are bad players, its because they cause the most drama. (Not a fact, just from my oppinion and from what ive seen raiding in casual and hardcore guilds.)

Females cause the most drama, its just that simple.

[mbrmbr]

I have been browsing the WoW forums as of late, to try and find a guild for MoP. I have stumbled into a LOT of guilds flat out saying they won't recruit any females. Here is a quote from one guild in particular....



Now everything except for the 'no females' on that list I can understand. Can someone please enlighten me on this subject?

Thanks!

This answer will be 'sexist', but nonetheless the truth. Males like to hang out with males more than they like to hang out with females. Simple. Sorry.

[Shadylol]

A lot of women on WoW are very attention seeking, and have a tendency to cause drama

[Geothermal]

Women cause drama? I see men making racist and sexist comments in trade chat for the sole intention of causing drama. I see men harassing new players, conning people out of gold, arguing needlessly over loot. I guess that means all men do that kind of thing and should be banned from raiding just in case one of them attempts to cause drama. That's the kind of mentality I'm seeing here.

Yes, women can cause drama. So can men. More often than not, it is the reactions and actions of men that result in the woman being punished. A lazy, brainless solution.

[Theholypally]

The type of drama that is being discussed isn't trade chat drama. It's guild drama. Females tend to cause more guild and raid wide drama then males do simply because they are female. It's not their fault but many women do pray on the fact that their "goods" and their voice give them the ability to manipulate males in the guild and in the raid. Many use that to their advantage and there is just no denying it.

I've raided with many many females and they have been great, I've also been guilded with and raided with many MORE females who do just that: use their sex as an emotional crutch.

Some guilds don't wnt to deal with that. I was in a top U.S. guild in wrath that only had TWO females in the entire guild. Not two females that raided, two in the whole guild period and their officers did NOT want to recruit any more. It wasn't because they were sexist, they didn't claim "all females suck at playing", their concerns were legitimate.

Top world guilds have seen the effects of women and what they do to players and guilds. Just ask Death and Taxes.

[therayeffect]

What worries me about this is that (as demonstrated in this thread) every single thing a woman does that an individual guy dislikes gets constructed as being that kind of problem. Oh she won't sleep with me, what a shitty way of relating to men, oh she's talking to some other guy in the guild not me, what a shitty way of relating to men, oh she outbid me on loot and doesn't understand that I'm more important and should just be passed to, clearly a problem with how she relates to men, and so on and so on (all charges I've heard leveled at women although dressed up more ofc). The reality is in every scenario it's the guy and their attitude/expectations that's the problem, but the woman gets blamed for not doing what the guy thinks they should be doing.

There's a huge difference between someone who genuinely has a problem relating to everyone in a particular gender (and as you point out should be accountable for that causing problems) and someone who's just pissed some individual off because the individual can't get whatever it is they want/expect out of them. But in both cases it somehow ends up being the woman in the scenarios fault, which is a problem in and of itself tbh.

You complain about posts that generalize the fault to women yet you yourself generalize all the problems to men. That's exactly what he pointed out.

[Deleted]

Those guilds you've seen not taking females are probably really immature kids in their preteens.

[Minaah]

I'm a female GM and we've done heroics with my guild, not much in the way of drama in past 6yrs either... some guilds like to assume the worst I spose', and to me, thats pretty crappy.

[Speedlance]

Girls are generally not good at video games, thats how it has always been and will continue to be forever, their genetic potential makes them unable to perform reactive tasks and they fail to relize that having 170 pets collected does not make them good for raiding.
It's harsh, I know but the truth always is. It's been like this in various things for thousands of years, stay in your roles or cause imbalance.
As for raiding, look at Nihilum etc they were always against having girls and they where dominating the raiding scene, then things switched up and they got some girls, just like that they lost the top possition.

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 06:39 AM ----------

I'm a female GM and we've done heroics with my guild, not much in the way of drama in past 6yrs either... some guilds like to assume the worst I spose', and to me, thats pretty crappy.

Don't expect anything as long as you're not pregnant. I don't want to raid and hang out with woman, I want to talk about how "overweight (to keep it sivil for the forums) a girl was, or how bad/good she was in bed, and we like being sexist, can you as a woman handle listening or reading that constantly? I doubt it, hence why I only want to chat with girls I hit on in pubs.
In my last guild we had 2 girls and both where whining because of all the nasty stuff we said, they did know about it because we put it up in the requirements for applying thread, they was explained to and they agree'd to it, so once the whine started they were out.

[Windfury]

You complain about posts that generalize the fault to women yet you yourself generalize all the problems to men. That's exactly what he pointed out.

Umm what? How/where am I doing that exactly? If you think that I kind of think you've missed my point.

I don't think I'm generalising all the problems to men, if you look over this thread there's a significant number of replies here that are blaming women for men not being able to control themselves or behave appropriately in one way or another. It isn't generalising to men to recognise that that is happening and comment on it. Given the discussion on this thread it's impossible to say that isn't happening or isn't an issue. Why should I pretend it isn't a problem?

I did acknowledge that my comments about accountability for personal behaviour lies with all people;

There's a huge difference between someone who genuinely has a problem relating to everyone in a particular gender (and as you point out should be accountable for that causing problems)

However you can't say that without also noting that behaviour that's constructed as being 'a problem' in women is actually pretty normal behaviour when a man does it (i.e. not passing on loot - how many people here are calling women loot whores and so on? Or talking to guildies in vent or whatever else). Those aren't actually problems, they don't indicate any sort of general problem in relating to an entire gender (like say banning an entire gender from recruitment does). My point is that things that piss an individual off because they've got ridiculous expectations of women aren't the woman having a problem that they need to be accountable for. You can't say you want to make women accountable for problems without also clearly defining that a problem is not in fact everything that pisses an individual guy off (she actually has every right to knock you back, to bid on loot, to sleep with someone if she wants etc), because that's exactly how women are being treated in the first place (see this thread for proof).

If it's a legitimate problem they're causing sure. It happens, all people and genders are capable of making asses of themselves. But it needs to be the actual problems of the person itself, not drama caused by some other butt hurt individual in response to not getting their own bullshit expecations met by the woman in question, who then blames the woman for that like they have no rights to make choices or have opinions, which is the kind of blaming that's going on in this thread.

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 08:46 AM ----------

As for raiding, look at Nihilum etc they were always against having girls and they where dominating the raiding scene, then things switched up and they got some girls, just like that they lost the top possition.

That was a joke quote taken out of context. Nihilum always had some female players (I can't actually think of a serious guild that didn't, just because you don't know the personal details of everyone on the rester doesn't automatically make them all dudes!). Pretty indicative of how messed up people in gaming view women as that this urban myth still hangs around though.

[Shadylol]

Women cause drama? I see men making racist and sexist comments in trade chat for the sole intention of causing drama. I see men harassing new players, conning people out of gold, arguing needlessly over loot. I guess that means all men do that kind of thing and should be banned from raiding just in case one of them attempts to cause drama. That's the kind of mentality I'm seeing here.

Yes, women can cause drama. So can men. More often than not, it is the reactions and actions of men that result in the woman being punished. A lazy, brainless solution.

Those examples are all random interaction with random people, though

I've seen it happen more times where a woman caused drama among an actual group of people (Raid teams/guild), than a man has

[Windfury]

Those examples are all random interaction with random people, though

I've seen it happen more times where a woman caused drama among an actual group of people (Raid teams/guild), than a man has

And that has nothing to do with the fact that behaviour that is seen as perfectly ok in males is viewed as drama if a female does it? Or nothing to do with male raiders actually getting butthurt and causing the drama then blaming the female for making them butthurt? Becuase those cover about 99% of scenarios given in this thread so far.

[Bluey111]

That just seems like a bad guild in general.... what kind of guild makes you give out your phone number?

[Shadylol]

And that has nothing to do with the fact that behaviour that is seen as perfectly ok in males is viewed as drama if a female does it? Or nothing to do with male raiders actually getting butthurt and causing the drama then blaming the female for making them butthurt? Becuase those cover about 99% of scenarios given in this thread so far.

No one said it's okay for men to do it either. It's just more likely that a woman will do it

Women also have a greater potential to make the problem far worse, than a man would. Entire guilds (progression raiding guilds, not just casual guilds) have broken apart because of girl drama in WoW, and it makes sense that people want to avoid this

[Youvegotfail]

i know this thread is 31 pages now, but just had to put my two cents in. We're 8/8HM (granted, didn't get the last two until after 30% nerf, but still!), our GM is female, and is our main tank. All our healers are also male. Just throwing that out there.

[Shadylol]

That just seems like a bad guild in general.... what kind of guild makes you give out your phone number?

It's not uncommon for people to need a way to get in touch with you, if you are offline. For example, if your power went out and you couldn't log on, your internet was down, you forgot your raid schedule and were out partying, etc

It's also good to be able to notify people if you're going to be gone for a while

[stomination]

Currently five female raiders. One of them does her job better than most of the males. That is what makes her of value to me and the rest of the guild. Trust me there are plenty of useless people with dicks and vaginas. Plenty useful ones with them too.

[Windfury]

No one said it's okay for men to do it either. It's just more likely that a woman will do it

Women also have a greater potential to make the problem far worse, than a man would. Entire guilds (progression raiding guilds, not just casual guilds) have broken apart because of girl drama in WoW, and it makes sense that people want to avoid this

Define "girl drama" for me. Because that sounds like male drama about girls rather than drama caused by girls to me.

[Shadylol]

Define "girl drama" for me. Because that sounds like male drama about girls rather than drama caused by girls to me.

Drama about girls is the same thing as girl drama, and it can be avoided by just not letting girls in a raid team

[Windfury]

Drama about girls is the same thing as girl drama, and it can be avoided by just not letting girls in a raid team

No it isn't the same thing.

And just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be. Those women don't deserve to be blamed and have all this crap thrown on them because guys can't stop themselves from acting like giant asses (which is a total bullshit excuse - of course they can stop themselves, they just cbf when there's someone else to conveniantly blame). The responsibility should be with the person actually causing the drama.