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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Choloz View Post
    Good female raiders are as much of a minority as good male raiders. Our raid has 5 females, all of which are solid, dependable, drama-free and able individuals. We've been farming 8/8 HM since 10% on a 10 hour raid week as a 25man guild. They require no "extra maintenance" or "strategy" as you claim.

    If you've had bad experiences with female raiders, then it's probably because you did a poor job recruiting. Or maybe it's just your style of raiding. Being in a military-style guild doesn't exactly mesh well with most girls so your argument doesn't really defend the point people are trying to make in this topic. That being said, this is probably one of more sexist topics I've ever read.. and I pity most of you who think that females only bring a headache. Any *actually good* raiding guild would never discriminate.

    Also, good job sneaking in that guild advertisement.
    So you admit that his "military-style" isn't a place for most girls...

    Then you get at him, for not allowing girls to raid in his guild?

    Okay buddy

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 01:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratanna View Post
    Exhibit A. Classic White knighting
    I have to say this is correct. This is also what I was saying earlier. Even if the woman doesn't cause drama herself, a man will be there to cause drama on her behalf. If you just remove the women from the equation, you remove that as well
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  2. #702
    you find one guild out of a potential fucking thousand and complain they don't accept chicks.
    move on
    you clearly wouldn't fit in. if ratanna wants to run a military style no bullshit guild then so be it. most chicks in this game like collecting mounts and pets and doing fun family friend type crap and seems like he's just enforcing a rule so you don't waste your time and they don't waste theirs.

  3. #703
    Back in WotLK, I joined up with a raiding guild with my bear. My mic had been messed up, so the first two nights I was unable to speak in vent, but I was able to listen and we had zero problems because of it. I had a new headset by the next week's raids, but I still kept silent in vent because I had no need to speak. A few weeks in, I asked for clarification on one of the fights, and that's when the raid realized I was not a dude like they had assumed. Immediately the raid leader goes on about it, and demands pics before I was to get any loot. When I declined (because I mean, come on... seriously?) I was booted for "causing drama."

    Worked out fine in the end, because that guild wasn't the place for me anyway. I'd much rather get in and do some actual raiding than listen to "hurr hurr bewbs" in vent. I am now at home in a much better raiding team, in a guild that does not allow any sort of favoritism harassment based on gender. Guilds that don't allow women to join them are fine, if that's what they want more power to them. Just like if a guild only wants people with purple hair, that's their decision.

  4. #704
    We've had e-whores/attention whores in our guild as trials before. They get weeded out REALLY fast early on in the process. We have a lengthy trial process and those type of girl gamers always end up shooting themselves in the foot by trying to flirt with established raiders. There was this one hunter during ICC that gave the other hunter nudes of herself if he'd use a hunter aspect that was a dps loss for them but needed for the encounter as she didn't want to lose dps. She got kicked out really fast.

    We have a male GM and a female officer (no relation). She's a no nonsense, kickass raider. One of the best pvp/pve players in our guild. We have 2 other female raiders who are no nonsense and don't participate in any of the typical gamer girl shit.

  5. #705
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    I would disagree. There's plenty of HC guilds out there who're recruiting female gamers. As far as I remember, there were a couple in Paragon back in the WotLK days. It's not unusual to say the least.

    What many of those who do not take in female gamers, see females as an distraction. This is sometimes true. I've experienced myself females who've been ... overly liked by certain members of the raiding team, reducing their performance somewhat (of the male gamer).

    On the other hand I would rather game with a mix between both genders rather than only males. All of the raiding guilds I've been in over the years had a healthy population of females within the guild who were either hardcore raiders, took care of certain jobs like banking (way back in the days) or were even raid leaders or officers. To those guilds who says "no females", just ignore them and find somewhere else to raid. Most of those guilds are not worth your time anyway. Best of luck.

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadylol View Post
    So you admit that his "military-style" isn't a place for most girls...

    Then you get at him, for not allowing girls to raid in his guild?

    Okay buddy

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 01:46 PM ----------



    I have to say this is correct. This is also what I was saying earlier. Even if the woman doesn't cause drama herself, a man will be there to cause drama on her behalf. If you just remove the women from the equation, you remove that as well
    I said it's a possibility, yes. I've never sat in on one of his raids so I don't know how things are actually run. My point was that perhaps women don't work for his raid because of the atmosphere. However, since I started raiding in MC I haven't encountered any military-style raids so you can't claim that women don't work for any competitive environment because of his experiences.

    So you could say that removing men from the equation would also solve the problem. You completely contradicted yourself by claiming that women aren't always the problem, but that men cause the issue, too. Get rid of whoever is insecure enough to start drama over a vagina, male or female. I'm simply defending the fact that women are good players and not all of them cause problems. Some of the best healers I've ever raided with happened to be women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratanna View Post
    Exhibit A. Classic White knighting
    Exhibit B. Classic misogynist. To claim that I'm white knighting simply because I defend a women's ability to raid just shows how sexist you are.

  7. #707
    In my exp that is not the case. Consider yourself lucky to have attempted to join a guild that was open and honest about their attitude to girl gamers and move on.

  8. #708
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    because they're (the guilds, for clarification before i get infracted for something retarded) bad

    also practically saying "all hc guilds" is a pretty big generalization

    But any good raider knows that there are scrubs who sound like scrubs because they are scrubs and they don't care that they're scrubs. There are many raiders who are allowed in this day and age to masquerade as hardcore raiders, just because they did some HMs. But real, dedicated players who are true can tell the difference immediately between themselves and others.
    Last edited by Gandrake; 2012-08-18 at 06:50 PM.
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  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by JeanJacket View Post
    Women cause drama, end of discussion.
    Most of them? Big yes, all of them, no idea since I have yet to come across a female who doesn't cause drama, be it outside of WoW or ingame.

    To the OP, to me, since you made the thread, you might have acceptance issues. To me it seems like the classical "they don't like me, I need to vent" type of thing. Why else would you make this thread when it is as simple as accepting that some guilds dont recruit female players and move on with your day. THIS is one of the reason guilds like Ratanna's are like they are.

    Personally, I say, who's business is it if they want or do not want females in their guild/raid team?

    This thread is is so unnecessary and childish because part of growing up is to accept that things are like they are between genders and make the best of what you got in life, to whine about things this is like forcing a child to eat spinach just because they force fed when you were a child.

    Some just dont want it, accept it for crying out loud.

    /THREAD
    Last edited by soliddevil; 2012-08-18 at 07:19 PM.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    What Woobels said. After going through recruitment rules, application and whatnot for several years I personally have never seen a guild straight up refuse females.
    In WOTLK I was in a top 25 N.A raiding guild called "No Chicks Allowed", from the name it's safe to assume there were no females.

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  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Rikluz View Post
    Listen, this simple thread about an unorthodox recruiting standard exploded into 35 pages of chauvinism, white knighting, and female empowerment. That is why we believe women are an unnecessary trouble in guilds.
    ^ This right here... Women that are skilled are great assets, but many times its just not worth risking the drama that could be caused by a female in the raid team. I've seen women tear guilds apart, and I have also seen women who want no part in drama and want to help the guild still be problems because of the guys in the guild. Its just not always worth the risk unless you know for a fact that they won't cause drama and that the guys in the raid are mature enough to not cause trouble either.
    The days of the carrot on a stick mindset are over. 'You want it? It's right there. Just go get it' Has changed to 'Here, Don't eat it all at once, Aw hell, What do I care?'

  12. #712
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    Girls take any kind of criticism very personal and do not respond constructive. They get mad and those kind of raiders if not an assert.

  13. #713
    Because of experience

    More often than not, girls that play MMOs are smart enough to take advantage of that fact, and that is fine...however that same advantage will be used to turn guildies and "friends" against each other.

    Ive been in countless guilds and in each there was a girl (or a "girl" played by a guy maybe) that was flirting with the officers and getting extra loot, privileges and what not.


    You cannot predict what will happen when a often socially akward girl (or guy) is used to never getting any attention from anyone, then you throw that person online and suddenly in the females experience there are countless guys constantly talking to her, whispering, in guild chat and making attempts at getting to know her. It is a very jarring experience that can send these girls into full blown drama queens, the game becomes secondary to the entertaining drama she can stir. A girl goes from a nobody, a ghost, a girl nobody would dream of even talking to, to a full blown queen diva, who commands several white knights under her rule. No wonder they go crazy with power they dont know how to handle it

    Take that and then take the fact that you have socially akward males who arent used to talking to females much, then suddenly that officer or GM is getting constant attention from a female, it makes people crazy.

    Are all girls like that? Of course not, but in most cases the ones that do play MMO's tend to be that way, giving a bad name to the normal females who just want to play WoW and be left alone.

    From a guilds perspective, its just not worth the risk. Too many examples and first hand experience what happens.

    TLDR: Both males and females can act crazy when put in a unknown position, because MMOs are largely played by males it means that females are a special commodity and they get treated as such, this turns females into full blown drama queens. Both are at fault, and its just bad news to mix them.
    Last edited by Into; 2012-08-18 at 07:41 PM.

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshalorah View Post
    I have been browsing the WoW forums as of late, to try and find a guild for MoP. I have stumbled into a LOT of guilds flat out saying they won't recruit any females. Here is a quote from one guild in particular....



    Now everything except for the 'no females' on that list I can understand. Can someone please enlighten me on this subject?

    Thanks!
    Was that <Nebula> ? Looks like the same post I saw before I apped and got in the guild.

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  15. #715
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    You know what's ironic?

    I've been in a few guilds now, and I was kicked from 2 from the very same reason: Getting into a simple argument with a ranked female who only got rank because they were being overly flirty to all of the guys. My side of the arguments were mature, legit concerns. Both times were from me merely pointing out performance issues, why we were being held back, ways to improve, etc. I want to raid. I want to progress. God forbid that I look for a solution so that we can move forward. The female officers were too carebear about criticism and replied with "CAN'T WE JUST GET ALONG???" Dear, it's not about getting along. I don't hate anyone in the raid group. It's about progressing. The funny thing is, after I was kicked, one of the guys THAT I CRITICIZED and was "mean to" who was horrible in raids stood up for me and got kicked for "associating with that bitch". We're good friends now, and he's completed 8/8H on his main. Yeah, man, I was totally wrong for criticizing him and pointing him in the right direction!

    So yeah. I can see why guilds want to shut out girls completely. I wouldn't mind joining one of those guilds, actually, because I have had an overall horrible experience with females in WoW. However, I have this little problem of mine...

    I'm female.

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  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    And that has nothing to do with the fact that behaviour that is seen as perfectly ok in males is viewed as drama if a female does it? Or nothing to do with male raiders actually getting butthurt and causing the drama then blaming the female for making them butthurt? Becuase those cover about 99% of scenarios given in this thread so far.
    The female isnt always the victim, a lot of the time they are the ones that instigate it. On other occasions the female is the victim of sexual harassment of some sort (or so they say) even after they have explicitly warned before or during the application process. Most females simply dont care, and will roll with the punches and dish them back...while other females then to SAY they dont care then make a scene about it later.

    And males cant do what females can do, males cant even hope to be as manipulative as a female can. If you claim that a male can do to a group of other males exactly the same thing as a female, then i believe you have been mislead.

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  17. #717
    There's absolutely no reasonable excuse for this rule and the amount of misogynistic supporters of it really just sickens me. Making the generalization that all women cause drama is pretty horrible too. I could understand guild kicking bitches if they do cause drama, but excluding all women from even having a chance just because they were born without a penis is pretty fucking disgusting.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Fezzina View Post
    These are the possible reasons why they'd put this:


    1) They're pigs and actually believe women can't raid at the same level as men.

    2) They're butthurt that they can't get real women, so they exclude women from their 'bro-raiding-time' which is more like 'forever alone' time.

    3) There are those attractive female players who cause rifts in guilds filled with men by causing drama. Usually happens because the guild master begins long distance dating the woman and ends up promoting her to officer to the dislike of the rest of the guild simply because they're 'dating'. GM begins missing raids or sneaking off to skype to cyber instead of raiding on vent. The solution? Cut out the woman.

    All three of those are extremely likely.
    None of those things would be true actually, you just sound like a hate monger.

    If a guild doesnt want women, they are automatically 30 year old virgins who are pigs? No, that might have been YOUR personal experience...but this is just an angry post, devoid of anything that people would take seriously.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  19. #719
    shadylol has nailed it. everypost he's made is our guild view.

    No we're not mysogynists, no we're not sexist.
    Our guild has is far past the whole lover/officer/relationship element. Like I said, we're 24 yrs old grown ass men with careers who are married or engaged with kids. Our guild is run with a military esq background (this is where its often a problem)

    Are there female gamers that are better than male gamers? of course.
    Are female gamers good? Yes they are out there. However, even the best model female gamer can come and distract other men. Is it the female's fault? no. Does it exist? yes (Not a problem in my guild, its just an example)

    My main leadership style is accountability/ownership/integrity mixed in with condescension when it gets really repetitive. All my members, will turn their hurt egos and go look at worldoflogs and fix their shit. They are driven by this style. Mediocrity is not acceptable, and they thrive off of it. Females respond to it differently, they often take offense and will go emotional and start underperforming even more. Or play the "just replace me card" (super pet peeve)

    At the end of a progression night, I review our logs, talk with some classes about strategies and improvements. That is a rinse repeat type deal in our guild. Making efficient/logical improvements. Not having to deal with hurt feelings/emotions/loot/cohesion. I'm not willing to go above and beyond with my time and Human Resources.

    Is it fair? No. In fact, I sympthathize for female gamers. I do honestly think its unfair, but at the end of the day, it frees up my time and my resources so I don't have to worry if <girl gamer> is going to show up with the proper corrections, fully motivated, and good to go.

    You other people on the forums just are coming up with some really ignorant comments. Funny, but you are getting murdered.
    A lot of you are right, its on the management to handle this problem. Well guess what, we have 2 managers in our 10 man guild with full time jobs/families.
    I can't emphasize how efficiently we run as a guild and how smooth shit is on a nightly basis.

    Some of the posters in this thread's logic is extremely questionable. A lot of you are saying to fix the 9 men. not the 1 girl. Have a conversation with each individual that is having the problem, which takes how much time? Or you could just remove the female. Its not about who is at fault, its a means to a quicker more efficient end. I'm not going to change my leadership style to accomodate 1 female in the guild's feelings. Most females that made it into the guild prior to cata talked a big game, but when it progression kills were becoming critical, dropped drama bomb on us.

    This guild has been around for 3 years with 2 expansions. The majority of us have been playing this game since vanilla.
    Take your fight with the ignorant people of this thread, not with my guild.
    We finished Heroic DS in february on a 12 hr/week schedule. 5% nerfs on spine/madness. Prenerf server firsts everything else.

    We do have rules against people under 21. I like how few people tend to point that out. Here are some of the great reasons why:
    1. Living with parents often causes problems. Bedtime.
    2. Doesn't really have shit set it stone (College Schedules etc. We recruit for the long haul)
    3. Living situations change a lot, that includes residence and job
    4. They find a girl and lose all perspective
    5. They have a Hot-Shit Complex and have little to no respect of rules/systems
    6. They don't understand how the World works and don't put much equity in integrity
    7. Would rather smoke a bowl and go skateboarding with his friends than show up to raid.
    8. the list goes on....

    I've stated our guilds position. now you are informed. and shadylol, i don't know you but you are on point.
    People that say you have problems giving your cell to your GM? Thats overly paranoid for the most part unless your GM is just shady or immature.
    Texting provides consistency and respect among your peers. You respect them enough to tell them you're mia/late so that 9 of us aren't sitting around twiddling our thumbs wondering where the hell you are.

    The point of the list is to save your time, and mine. It's win/win. You find out real quick if you meet the requirements, instead of joining/xferring and being unhappy with the style/pace/seriousness. Our recruitment process has very low turnover for this very reason. I do extensive interviews to see if Nebula is the right home for you. The list is merely to save my time coming home having to read a bunch of applicants I do not want in the environment anyways and doing interviews on a nightly basis. Is my time is precious? yes.

    If you're fed up with favoritism, want to kill shit pre nerf but don't want to raid more than 3 nights a week. check us out a nebula.enjin.com
    Last edited by Ratanna; 2012-08-18 at 10:41 PM.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratanna View Post
    Females respond to it differently, they often take offense and will go emotional and start underperforming even more. Or play the "just replace me card" (super pet peeve)

    At the end of a progression night, I review our logs, talk with some classes about strategies and improvements. That is a rinse repeat type deal in our guild. Making efficient/logical improvements. Not having to deal with hurt feelings/emotions/loot/cohesion. I'm not willing to go above and beyond with my time and Human Resources.

    Is it fair? No. In fact, I sympthathize for female gamers. I do honestly think its unfair, but at the end of the day, it frees up my time and my resources so I don't have to worry if <girl gamer> is going to show up with the proper corrections, fully motivated, and good to go.
    So you'd rather build your reputation as one of the most intolerant guilds out there than take the 10 minutes per raider during the application/interview process to ensure they're emotionally capable of handling your raiding environment?

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