Why do HC raiding guilds say 'no' to females?

[Windfury]

Like it or not, victim blaming is efficient, when recruiting

You mean that discriminating is efficient I assume? I don't see how adding the whole extra layer of blame, drama and lies that comes with victim blaming could possibly be efficient. Care to explain? I'm not disputing the right to exclude. My problem is the victim blaming. If you want to exclude go ahead, but take the responsibility for your own actions and choices.

[Shadylol]

You mean that discriminating is efficient I assume? I don't see how adding the whole extra layer of blame, drama and lies that comes with victim blaming could possibly be efficient. Care to explain? I'm not disputing the right to exclude. My problem is the victim blaming. If you want to exclude go ahead, but take the responsibility for your own actions and choices.

The fact that the majority of women in WoW are either bad, or cause drama, makes it their fault, as a whole. The victim blaming comes in with the 10% who aren't bad or drama seekers, but trying to weed them out of the other 90% is just a waste of time

[Hinaaja]

I am not sure I would label that as a "legitimate reason" so much as an easy cop-out.

Honestly, if some of those 24 males in the group can't handle themselves properly in the presence of a female, I don't see how that justifies punishing the female. A much more fair response is to address the few males who are the problem. And let's face it, if there is one female and 24 males in a group, odds are about 96% that the problem will originate from a male.

Fair? Perhaps. But it's a lot easier to just ditch the female. We're talking about a game here after all, if I had to choose between having a quick solution by removing the female, and addressing several males causing even more drama and possibly stretching the drama and fighting and whining for days, I'd ditch the female.

---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 01:31 PM ----------

Then isn't it the guys causing the drama?

So sick of seeing women blamed because some guys apparently can't control themselves/act reasonably.

In a way, yes. But it's a lot easier to get rid of one female than several males.

[Windfury]

The fact that the majority of women in WoW are either bad, or cause drama, makes it their fault, as a whole. The victim blaming comes in with the 10% who aren't bad or drama seekers, but trying to weed them out of the other 90% is just a waste of time

Those are some nice stereotypes you have there. Do you have anything to back that up aside from meaningless personal annecdotes? Some research perhaps? Any useful stats?

Of course not, because it's bs and nothing like that exists. Saying it over and over isn't going to make it true.

The reality is that 99% of everyone, male and female is bad. Why are you making it gender specific? I assure you there's plenty of baddies out there with dicks as well, more statistically in fact. I promise you more than 90% of male apps high end guilds recieve are total rubbish and the good ones have to be weeded out as well. Which takes exactly the same amount of time (more in fact because there's more male apps generally). And we've already gone over blaming women for men making drama about them is bs, they don't have a say in it and other people chosing to act like jerks isn't their responsibility. Man up and own your own shit instead of forcing it on to other people.

In a way, yes. But it's a lot easier to get rid of one female than several males.

Fine, but man the fuck up and say that's what you're doing instead of blaming the women who have nothing actually to do with the guilds actions or choices. They shouldn't have to take responsibility for all of the bs emotional problems of your raid team if they seriously can't handle a female in guild.

[Anarchor]

Females don't cause drama you windowlickers... that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

I've been in world top #1 to 3 raidguilds and there were way more female raiders in there than I knew there being in other more casual guilds.
Never, ever, ever were any of the women there the cause of any drama. Most of the men in the guild didn't even care much for them, even if one of the resto druids was a damn hot big breasted swedish chick.

It's the combination of 30 year old virgins and moronic men put together with something with tits that sometimes causes problems. For the women who aren't allowed in such guilds I can only say: "Be happy about it!" Really. You won't be missing out on anything in a guild that consists of members in such a manner that a female amongst them would cause the monkeys to start masturbating dramatically.

[Yavannie]

This thread certainly provided an exhaustive answer to the question asked by the OP.

[Aerai]

It's the combination of 30 year old virgins and moronic men put together with something with tits that sometimes causes problems. For the women who aren't allowed in such guilds I can only say: "Be happy about it!" Really. You won't be missing out on anything in a guild that consists of members in such a manner that a female amongst them would cause the monkeys to start masturbating dramatically.

Best. Statement. Ever.

[Shadylol]

Those are some nice stereotypes you have there. Do you have anything to back that up aside from meaningless personal annecdotes? Some research perhaps? Any useful stats?

Of course not, because it's bs and nothing like that exists. Saying it over and over isn't going to make it true.

The reality is that 99% of everyone, male and female is bad. Why are you making it gender specific? I assure you there's plenty of baddies out there with dicks as well, more statistically in fact. I promise you more than 90% of male apps high end guilds recieve are total rubbish and the good ones have to be weeded out as well. Which takes exactly the same amount of time (more in fact because there's more male apps generally). And we've already gone over blaming women for men making drama about them is bs, they don't have a say in it and other people chosing to act like jerks isn't their responsibility. Man up and own your own shit instead of forcing it on to other people.

You're acting like the Guild from the OP is doing this out of spite, or just to be mean

They're recruiting in an efficient manner, no more, no less

[Wildspirit]

I had multiple bad experience in guilds were girls destroyed everything ... one time it was one who lived with an officer and then slept with 3-4 other guildies over the months... when that transpired, I let you imagine the chaos...

An other time, it was an officer (female) who was like a princess and didn't support the fact that other girls could "take her place" in the guild life and became a real pain by trying to seduce guildies to join her cause... Needless to say the guild split shortly after that...

Recently we recruited a female player who doesn't accept any critics about her gameplay and such, and act like a real princess cause she's accustomed to men offering her pets, mounts, etc... She made an officer give her the Madness HM mount without any rand and caused an uproar because of that... ever since she's in the guild, there's tensions and groups of people fighting each other to defend her or criticize her...

Those kind of female player are a real pain, but it's not the majority. I've known plenty over the years and apart of these 3 example and maybe some other minor things I've always had a good experience with girls in game (the only thing I can honestly say is that in the vast majority, they're not as good as men in raid... there's some exception obviously I know one of those girl whose a freaking robot it's scary !) ...

I can totally understand guilds who don't want to take a risk by letting girls in. But be careful not to generalize =)

[namelessone]

The fact that the majority of women in WoW are either bad, or cause drama, makes it their fault, as a whole. The victim blaming comes in with the 10% who aren't bad or drama seekers, but trying to weed them out of the other 90% is just a waste of time

Majority of men who play WoW are also pretty bad, statistically speaking. So?

[Oogzy]

A lot of guilds have had problems that stemmed from having women in their raids or guilds most likely. I've been in a couple HC guilds that had more than a few issues with excessive drama due to one of the girls. They didn't outright ban girls from the guilds usually, but they were much more wary about inviting women into the guilds afterwards. It usually stemmed from the girl talking too much to other guys while dating another one of the guys in the guild as well and whatnot.

[Rreessii]

It can be men or women that cause drama. Honestly, I've seen more guys causing dramatic issues. I'm also a male saying this.

[namelessone]

If guild relationships cause drama, wouldn't it make more sense to put a ban on guild relationships? No bf/gf in the same guild. Which is by the way what most serious real world companies do.

[Shadylol]

Majority of men who play WoW are also pretty bad, statistically speaking. So?

Sure, there's lots of guys who are really bad too, but they don't come with the host of other issues that women have to potential to come with

[Scottishpaladin]

I have never played wow with a good female player. But I know there is some outt there!

[Shadylol]

It can be men or women that cause drama. Honestly, I've seen more guys causing dramatic issues. I'm also a male saying this.

But if a man causes drama, you can simple remove him from the situation and move on. Removing women can be far messier, because they can have a host of sexually frustrated young men trying to white knight for her, and potentially break up an entire raid team

---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 06:55 AM ----------

I have never played wow with a good female player. But I know there is some outt there!

I've seen a few, but they're like 1% of the women I've met in WoW

[namelessone]

Sure, there's lots of guys who are really bad too, but they don't come with the host of other issues that women have to potential to come with

Yes they do. Guys come with just as many issues, on average. The point is if you are recruiting people for your guild PERSONALLY, it shouldn't be a problem for you. You wouldn't take just ANY guy - you first make sure he is smart, mature, emotionally stable, etc. You can do the same with a girl, if you want to. Banning all girls outright based on some anecdotes, or even worse, common perceptions, is nothing but sexism.

[Windfury]

It usually stemmed from the girl talking too much to other guys while dating another one of the guys in the guild as well and whatnot.

Because once you're dating someone they own you and you're not allowed to have a conversation without their approval ever again? Would you think it's acceptable if a girl took that line with you? Why is it her fault that her partner took that line with her? Sounds like *his* jealousy and possessiveness was the problem tbh.

You're acting like the Guild from the OP is doing this out of spite, or just to be mean

They're recruiting in an efficient manner, no more, no less

Actually it is more. In indulging in the whole victim blaming thing they're feeding the seriously fucked up expectations men have about women that you can see throughout this thread. I have no problem with efficient recruiting, I have no problem with them deciding who is in their guild or not, I have huge problems with them not being honest abut the reasons they're doing it and instead trying to blame other people for their own behaviour and choices. And I have every right to do that, because it's reinforcing all of the negtive sterotypes you see here wherein women literally can't win because they're all clearly either bitches or whores and to blame for every dumbass immature males problems. And even though you don't realise it, that hurts everyone.

[mik999]

In 5 years of gaming i met around 20 womans who clearly stated it, and only 1 was dramaqueen, around 7 were really good raiders (we have 3 in core squad atm, and believe me, they are better players, than more than half of a server). But this stereothype is so common im not suprised, but TBH its man fault. Why? Because womans who wish to do it, have a really easy time gaining advantage from some nerdy guys, like getting items, or being easy on them on raids "because im only girl".

[Shadylol]

Yes they do. Guys come with just as many issues, on average. The point is if you are recruiting people for your guild PERSONALLY, it shouldn't be a problem for you. You wouldn't take just ANY guy - you first make sure he is smart, mature, emotionally stable, etc. You can do the same with a girl, if you want to. Banning all girls outright based on some anecdotes, or even worse, common perceptions, is nothing but sexism.

It is sexism, but sexism is efficient in this sort of thing

I also don't want to raid with people from certain countries, people who are still in school, people who don't speak English, open homosexuals, and more... That doesn't mean I hate these people, or that I even avoid them outside of raiding, but when it comes to raiding, there's just certain people who I'd prefer to be with

That said, I've been in guilds with and without rules like this about not allowing women, gays, etc, and I've seen them both work fine. But I've also seen women cause disgusting amounts of drama, and it's not confusing to me at all why they get excluded as a whole because of this. Again, though, I've raided with women who were pretty good, so ultimately it's just up to the raid leader