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  1. #701
    Deleted
    Because of experience

    More often than not, girls that play MMOs are smart enough to take advantage of that fact, and that is fine...however that same advantage will be used to turn guildies and "friends" against each other.

    Ive been in countless guilds and in each there was a girl (or a "girl" played by a guy maybe) that was flirting with the officers and getting extra loot, privileges and what not.


    You cannot predict what will happen when a often socially akward girl (or guy) is used to never getting any attention from anyone, then you throw that person online and suddenly in the females experience there are countless guys constantly talking to her, whispering, in guild chat and making attempts at getting to know her. It is a very jarring experience that can send these girls into full blown drama queens, the game becomes secondary to the entertaining drama she can stir. A girl goes from a nobody, a ghost, a girl nobody would dream of even talking to, to a full blown queen diva, who commands several white knights under her rule. No wonder they go crazy with power they dont know how to handle it

    Take that and then take the fact that you have socially akward males who arent used to talking to females much, then suddenly that officer or GM is getting constant attention from a female, it makes people crazy.

    Are all girls like that? Of course not, but in most cases the ones that do play MMO's tend to be that way, giving a bad name to the normal females who just want to play WoW and be left alone.

    From a guilds perspective, its just not worth the risk. Too many examples and first hand experience what happens.

    TLDR: Both males and females can act crazy when put in a unknown position, because MMOs are largely played by males it means that females are a special commodity and they get treated as such, this turns females into full blown drama queens. Both are at fault, and its just bad news to mix them.
    Last edited by mmoc801388ae7f; 2012-08-18 at 07:41 PM.

  2. #702
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshalorah View Post
    I have been browsing the WoW forums as of late, to try and find a guild for MoP. I have stumbled into a LOT of guilds flat out saying they won't recruit any females. Here is a quote from one guild in particular....



    Now everything except for the 'no females' on that list I can understand. Can someone please enlighten me on this subject?

    Thanks!
    Was that <Nebula> ? Looks like the same post I saw before I apped and got in the guild.

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  3. #703
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    You know what's ironic?

    I've been in a few guilds now, and I was kicked from 2 from the very same reason: Getting into a simple argument with a ranked female who only got rank because they were being overly flirty to all of the guys. My side of the arguments were mature, legit concerns. Both times were from me merely pointing out performance issues, why we were being held back, ways to improve, etc. I want to raid. I want to progress. God forbid that I look for a solution so that we can move forward. The female officers were too carebear about criticism and replied with "CAN'T WE JUST GET ALONG???" Dear, it's not about getting along. I don't hate anyone in the raid group. It's about progressing. The funny thing is, after I was kicked, one of the guys THAT I CRITICIZED and was "mean to" who was horrible in raids stood up for me and got kicked for "associating with that bitch". We're good friends now, and he's completed 8/8H on his main. Yeah, man, I was totally wrong for criticizing him and pointing him in the right direction!

    So yeah. I can see why guilds want to shut out girls completely. I wouldn't mind joining one of those guilds, actually, because I have had an overall horrible experience with females in WoW. However, I have this little problem of mine...

    I'm female.

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  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    And that has nothing to do with the fact that behaviour that is seen as perfectly ok in males is viewed as drama if a female does it? Or nothing to do with male raiders actually getting butthurt and causing the drama then blaming the female for making them butthurt? Becuase those cover about 99% of scenarios given in this thread so far.
    The female isnt always the victim, a lot of the time they are the ones that instigate it. On other occasions the female is the victim of sexual harassment of some sort (or so they say) even after they have explicitly warned before or during the application process. Most females simply dont care, and will roll with the punches and dish them back...while other females then to SAY they dont care then make a scene about it later.

    And males cant do what females can do, males cant even hope to be as manipulative as a female can. If you claim that a male can do to a group of other males exactly the same thing as a female, then i believe you have been mislead.

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  5. #705
    There's absolutely no reasonable excuse for this rule and the amount of misogynistic supporters of it really just sickens me. Making the generalization that all women cause drama is pretty horrible too. I could understand guild kicking bitches if they do cause drama, but excluding all women from even having a chance just because they were born without a penis is pretty fucking disgusting.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Fezzina View Post
    These are the possible reasons why they'd put this:


    1) They're pigs and actually believe women can't raid at the same level as men.

    2) They're butthurt that they can't get real women, so they exclude women from their 'bro-raiding-time' which is more like 'forever alone' time.

    3) There are those attractive female players who cause rifts in guilds filled with men by causing drama. Usually happens because the guild master begins long distance dating the woman and ends up promoting her to officer to the dislike of the rest of the guild simply because they're 'dating'. GM begins missing raids or sneaking off to skype to cyber instead of raiding on vent. The solution? Cut out the woman.

    All three of those are extremely likely.
    None of those things would be true actually, you just sound like a hate monger.

    If a guild doesnt want women, they are automatically 30 year old virgins who are pigs? No, that might have been YOUR personal experience...but this is just an angry post, devoid of anything that people would take seriously.

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  7. #707
    shadylol has nailed it. everypost he's made is our guild view.

    No we're not mysogynists, no we're not sexist.
    Our guild has is far past the whole lover/officer/relationship element. Like I said, we're 24 yrs old grown ass men with careers who are married or engaged with kids. Our guild is run with a military esq background (this is where its often a problem)

    Are there female gamers that are better than male gamers? of course.
    Are female gamers good? Yes they are out there. However, even the best model female gamer can come and distract other men. Is it the female's fault? no. Does it exist? yes (Not a problem in my guild, its just an example)

    My main leadership style is accountability/ownership/integrity mixed in with condescension when it gets really repetitive. All my members, will turn their hurt egos and go look at worldoflogs and fix their shit. They are driven by this style. Mediocrity is not acceptable, and they thrive off of it. Females respond to it differently, they often take offense and will go emotional and start underperforming even more. Or play the "just replace me card" (super pet peeve)

    At the end of a progression night, I review our logs, talk with some classes about strategies and improvements. That is a rinse repeat type deal in our guild. Making efficient/logical improvements. Not having to deal with hurt feelings/emotions/loot/cohesion. I'm not willing to go above and beyond with my time and Human Resources.

    Is it fair? No. In fact, I sympthathize for female gamers. I do honestly think its unfair, but at the end of the day, it frees up my time and my resources so I don't have to worry if <girl gamer> is going to show up with the proper corrections, fully motivated, and good to go.

    You other people on the forums just are coming up with some really ignorant comments. Funny, but you are getting murdered.
    A lot of you are right, its on the management to handle this problem. Well guess what, we have 2 managers in our 10 man guild with full time jobs/families.
    I can't emphasize how efficiently we run as a guild and how smooth shit is on a nightly basis.

    Some of the posters in this thread's logic is extremely questionable. A lot of you are saying to fix the 9 men. not the 1 girl. Have a conversation with each individual that is having the problem, which takes how much time? Or you could just remove the female. Its not about who is at fault, its a means to a quicker more efficient end. I'm not going to change my leadership style to accomodate 1 female in the guild's feelings. Most females that made it into the guild prior to cata talked a big game, but when it progression kills were becoming critical, dropped drama bomb on us.

    This guild has been around for 3 years with 2 expansions. The majority of us have been playing this game since vanilla.
    Take your fight with the ignorant people of this thread, not with my guild.
    We finished Heroic DS in february on a 12 hr/week schedule. 5% nerfs on spine/madness. Prenerf server firsts everything else.

    We do have rules against people under 21. I like how few people tend to point that out. Here are some of the great reasons why:
    1. Living with parents often causes problems. Bedtime.
    2. Doesn't really have shit set it stone (College Schedules etc. We recruit for the long haul)
    3. Living situations change a lot, that includes residence and job
    4. They find a girl and lose all perspective
    5. They have a Hot-Shit Complex and have little to no respect of rules/systems
    6. They don't understand how the World works and don't put much equity in integrity
    7. Would rather smoke a bowl and go skateboarding with his friends than show up to raid.
    8. the list goes on....

    I've stated our guilds position. now you are informed. and shadylol, i don't know you but you are on point.
    People that say you have problems giving your cell to your GM? Thats overly paranoid for the most part unless your GM is just shady or immature.
    Texting provides consistency and respect among your peers. You respect them enough to tell them you're mia/late so that 9 of us aren't sitting around twiddling our thumbs wondering where the hell you are.

    The point of the list is to save your time, and mine. It's win/win. You find out real quick if you meet the requirements, instead of joining/xferring and being unhappy with the style/pace/seriousness. Our recruitment process has very low turnover for this very reason. I do extensive interviews to see if Nebula is the right home for you. The list is merely to save my time coming home having to read a bunch of applicants I do not want in the environment anyways and doing interviews on a nightly basis. Is my time is precious? yes.

    If you're fed up with favoritism, want to kill shit pre nerf but don't want to raid more than 3 nights a week. check us out a nebula.enjin.com
    Last edited by Ratanna; 2012-08-18 at 10:41 PM.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratanna View Post
    Females respond to it differently, they often take offense and will go emotional and start underperforming even more. Or play the "just replace me card" (super pet peeve)

    At the end of a progression night, I review our logs, talk with some classes about strategies and improvements. That is a rinse repeat type deal in our guild. Making efficient/logical improvements. Not having to deal with hurt feelings/emotions/loot/cohesion. I'm not willing to go above and beyond with my time and Human Resources.

    Is it fair? No. In fact, I sympthathize for female gamers. I do honestly think its unfair, but at the end of the day, it frees up my time and my resources so I don't have to worry if <girl gamer> is going to show up with the proper corrections, fully motivated, and good to go.
    So you'd rather build your reputation as one of the most intolerant guilds out there than take the 10 minutes per raider during the application/interview process to ensure they're emotionally capable of handling your raiding environment?

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by PFloydWall View Post
    So you'd rather build your reputation as one of the most intolerant guilds out there than take the 10 minutes per raider during the application/interview process to ensure they're emotionally capable of handling your raiding environment?
    Our verbal interview process is ~1 hr and sometimes more. People can talk a big game. I take it with a grain of salt, but I do remember what they say in the interview and how much it lines up with their actions.

    Our guild is not for everyone. Less than 1% of guilds are able to kill content pre nerf. Our fun is not necessarily the fun most people get out of the game.
    Fun for us is Taking SS's next to the dead bosses, being top 10 on worldoflog parses, moving up the wowprogress charts, beating our rivals.
    We're not the guild to socialize much in gchat/mumble. The reality is some of our personalities clash. But its the mutual drive that we have and understanding of how a team works to get shit done that puts it all together. Its unrealistic to expect everyone to get along.
    But regardless of personality differences, there is respect.
    Last edited by Ratanna; 2012-08-18 at 11:20 PM.

  10. #710
    Mechagnome helheim's Avatar
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    meh. my guild has no problems with girls raiding with us. we aren't top 200 world or anything, but we only raid heroics. been 8/8h for several months now. i think we have like 4 girls in our various raid groups. it's not a huge percentage of our roster, but they are there.
    i do not spew profanities. i enunciate them clearly, like a fucking lady.
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  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by bajskorv View Post
    Why do you hate men so much? I don't know who it was who broke your heart so long ago but you have to understand that channeling all your hurt into hatred of the whole male gender is not the way to move forward. I hope you'll eventually move past this and that you'll manage to open your heart and learn to love again.
    Where did I say I hate men? Please provide some proof. Did you even read my posts? I have repeatedly stated that it's not all guys but a minority who can't handle themselves who are blaming other people that are a huge part of this problem. That's pretty clearly not a general hate of everything male.

    I do however have no time for misogyny and can't stand all the hatred that's actually being spewed at women throughout this thread. I have every right to be disgusted by it, and as much right as everyone else to express my opinions. Trying to turn my opinion on being treated like a piece of crap into my fault/problem by blaming me instead of the people who think it's totally fine to treat women like shit is exctly the sort of bs that I'm talking about.

    What my posts are objecting to is the construction of this somehow being the womens fault (e.g. nearly 40 pages of how women are bad/whores/whatever ridic justification you can think of), when the reality is it's the guy's fault and guy's drama for their issues with how they relate to women. It should be acknowledged and treated as such instead of turned into an excuse to spew all this bs hate at women. Why should anyone be blamed for something that isn't them? Why shouldn't those guys that can't handle themselves man the fuck up and take some responsbility for themselves?

    Hell, even the GM of the guild in question posted and stated this is basically the case, and that women weren't the drama themselves, it was how the guy reacted to them that caused the problems. The bulk of this problem isn't the women, it's the men, and the people who are actually to blame should take some responsibility for their actions.

    And thanks for the weird speculation about my personal life. Seriously why do you creepers think thats an appropriate way to talk to someone? My personal life is no more relevant or appropriate to discuss than yours is. Why is it that just being a woman means it's open season on my personal life whenever you want, but if I were to mention it I'd automatically be branded an ewhore? Seems fair amitrite?
    Last edited by Windfury; 2012-08-19 at 01:48 AM.

  12. #712
    No one is denying what males do when females are around. Some are respectful, others become nasty, and females react in one of two ways: they get offended, and thus begins the downfall for them. Or, they fire back and grow a thick skin (just like every raider male or female does when they apply to a new guild and AGREE to accept criticism and some explicitness in guild chat and on vent). Im not talking about sexual comments or "omg a girl on vent say something" im talking about raiding criticism, recruit trial periods where they are constantly put under the microscope.

    If you are playing this game, you know that people vary in how they act. Playing the victim and expecting an entire guild to cater to ones personal values is only going to net you a loss in the end. Playing along, on the other hand, will get you a place among 'the guys' and you will be one of them. If you are a super feminist who doesnt want to 'let the man get you down' then so be it, thats your choice, just dont expect warm welcomes or sympathy votes from that many people.

    Ive always treated male and female raiders the same exact way. Ill tell a female raider she totally blows at her class just like i would tell a male raider. There is no gender in my mind when im looking over a persons performance. That doesnt mean that i am a sexist pig when i say that women bring drama to guilds. Its the truth, everyone (even females) know its the truth. Some THRIVE on it and some have no clue they are doing it.

    A lot of guilds choose to either 1) skip the drama all together or 2) recruit both genders and see what happens. It doesnt change anything, when drama starts happening (raid spots, loot, favoritism, etc) then people will open their eyes.

    There is no point in denying it. Im not saying females suck at playing, i know some VERY awesome girl players and i also know some guild whores who do nothing but use their gender to get what they want. Men cant do that (even if they wanted to) unless it was a guild full of females, even then...its still a maybe.

    The majority of the females i know since i started playing in vanilla are awesome. There have been many though that fall under what ive been talking about as well.
    Last edited by Theholypally; 2012-08-19 at 01:03 AM.

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  13. #713
    Herald of the Titans Suikoden's Avatar
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    Some of the best raiders I've ever raided with have been female...

  14. #714
    I guess just the vocal minority ruin it for everyone else. I am a female raider, and I also handle recruitments, I can say hand on heart I am less likely to feel happy about recruiting another girl. My guild has been around like 6-7 years now and we have seen MANY types of females. It is not the only type of female out there, but a huge amount of the ones we happen to have seen have either been drama starters or the "girlfriend player". The girlfriend player refers to the girlfriend of a guy massively into WoW, who is encouraged into the game just to spend more time with him, is usually boosted to max level, and knows nothing about her class at all. This couple usually cries and leaves if one of them can't get into the same raid. I have been on the lookout for many years for a normal, like minded female to raid with, one that actually cares about her gameplay and not about messing with the menfolk. I'm just a pretty competitive person, hence playing dps not the "usual" healing class :P

  15. #715
    well, from personal experience, i have never been able to tell a girl that i have raided with that their spec sucked and have it NOT cause a big issue. it would seem that girls, as being "girl gamers" tend to not like being called out about things like dps/gear/talents whatever, because maybe they think im treating them like some stereotype, the girl that doesnt know how to play their class. when really, i just want them to be the right damn spec, and yell at all my raiders that try to come to a raid with like wand specialization or some such shit. every time i call out a girl though, they have a tendency to do things like emo-out and ninja log, or ignore me, or change it, be pissy about it for the rest of the raid, then show up with the spec reverted the very next raid, maybe its just the ppl i have played with, but things like that are the reason i could see some guilds having rules like that.
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  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Hell, even the GM of the guild in question posted and stated this is basically the case, and that women weren't the drama themselves, it was how the guy reacted to them that caused the problems. The bulk of this problem isn't the women, it's the men, and the people who are actually to blame should take some responsibility for their actions.
    i'm not saying main reason is because the men. My members do not have a problem with women. But changing the flow and the raid leading to cater to a woman then yes there is a problem. That would be an instance of favoritism. What it MAINLY is their ability to fit well in our raiding environment and thrive off the current leadership. I do not want to waste their time and more importantly my time if they will not be a good fit. This was a decision made off of time available and past experiences. Please do not misquote me.
    Last edited by Ratanna; 2012-08-19 at 01:56 AM.

  17. #717
    I'm a girl and an excellent badass raider. I've been through quite a few hard mode guilds and never ever ever have I ever come across a guild that prohibits females.

    And I can play a dps just as well as a healer too... if not better (I've ranked enough times on a demo lock in firelands and a fire mage in ICC to prove that)
    Last edited by dalliah1; 2012-08-19 at 02:33 AM.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by dalliah1 View Post
    I'm a girl and an excellent badass raider. I've been through quite a few hard mode guilds and never ever ever have I ever come across a guild that prohibits females.

    And I can play a dps just as well as a healer too... if not better (I've ranked enough times on a demo lock in firelands and a fire mage in ICC to prove that)
    The fact that the first thing you said is "I'm a girl" kind of makes me wonder about you. My friends and I call this the "I AM A WOMAN" type/mentality, and it's something we tried to avoid in WoW. For the record, some of the friends that shared that sentiment were girls/women themselves, so you can't say we're just a bunch of sexist young men

    At any rate, Ratanna has explained multiple times that he's not excluded women to be mean to women. He just doesn't have the time to deal with girl drama (or even potential girl drama). I've been in "hardcore" raiding guilds that allowed women, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the Raid leaders have to deal with a lot of extra nonsense from women, or even just having women in the guild, and the drama that can arise from men as a result of that

    I've seen women cyber the DKP officer, to try to get extra DKP, I've seen a woman get kicked for being bad and her husband leave as a result, I've seen the typical "I'M A GIRL LOVE ME" teenager shit, and countless other examples

    I played WoW for several years, and over that time I saw plenty of women that were good at the game, and didn't cause any drama, but I also saw way, way more who were either awful, caused drama, or both. I can totally see the logic in having a no girls allowed policy, and I've been in top guilds that had this policy

    Point being, that if a Raid leader/Guild leader has the time to deal with girl drama, and doesn't mind the potential for it, then it's A-Okay to let women raid with you. The Guild leader in question here has stated, and explained multiple times that he does not have time for this, and just wishes to avoid it altogether. If you want to raid with women, that's fine, but some of us are more busy outside of WoW
    Last edited by Shadylol; 2012-08-19 at 03:03 AM.
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  19. #719
    Drama drama drama... women have killed more guilds than I can care to count..
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  20. #720
    My guild has three females in our core 25 man roster. Two of which are DPS which rank in the top 8 on almost all fights, and a healer who absolutely blows people away. Not only is she an amazing healer, she is also co-gm of our amazing HM guild. She shows valuable skills with many of the challenges that come with that position.

    I for one support gender equality, and being female in WoW means nothing. Women are just as good as men in nearly everything.
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