Why do HC raiding guilds say 'no' to females?

**Ratanna** · 2012-08-18, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by PFloydWall

So you'd rather build your reputation as one of the most intolerant guilds out there than take the 10 minutes per raider during the application/interview process to ensure they're emotionally capable of handling your raiding environment?

Our verbal interview process is ~1 hr and sometimes more. People can talk a big game. I take it with a grain of salt, but I do remember what they say in the interview and how much it lines up with their actions.

Our guild is not for everyone. Less than 1% of guilds are able to kill content pre nerf. Our fun is not necessarily the fun most people get out of the game.
Fun for us is Taking SS's next to the dead bosses, being top 10 on worldoflog parses, moving up the wowprogress charts, beating our rivals.
We're not the guild to socialize much in gchat/mumble. The reality is some of our personalities clash. But its the mutual drive that we have and understanding of how a team works to get shit done that puts it all together. Its unrealistic to expect everyone to get along.
But regardless of personality differences, there is respect.

**helheim** · 2012-08-18, 11:08 PM

meh. my guild has no problems with girls raiding with us. we aren't top 200 world or anything, but we only raid heroics. been 8/8h for several months now. i think we have like 4 girls in our various raid groups. it's not a huge percentage of our roster, but they are there.

**Windfury** · 2012-08-18, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by bajskorv

Why do you hate men so much? I don't know who it was who broke your heart so long ago but you have to understand that channeling all your hurt into hatred of the whole male gender is not the way to move forward. I hope you'll eventually move past this and that you'll manage to open your heart and learn to love again.

Where did I say I hate men? Please provide some proof. Did you even read my posts? I have repeatedly stated that it's not all guys but a minority who can't handle themselves who are blaming other people that are a huge part of this problem. That's pretty clearly not a general hate of everything male.

I do however have no time for misogyny and can't stand all the hatred that's actually being spewed at women throughout this thread. I have every right to be disgusted by it, and as much right as everyone else to express my opinions. Trying to turn my opinion on being treated like a piece of crap into my fault/problem by blaming me instead of the people who think it's totally fine to treat women like shit is exctly the sort of bs that I'm talking about.

What my posts are objecting to is the construction of this somehow being the womens fault (e.g. nearly 40 pages of how women are bad/whores/whatever ridic justification you can think of), when the reality is it's the guy's fault and guy's drama for their issues with how they relate to women. It should be acknowledged and treated as such instead of turned into an excuse to spew all this bs hate at women. Why should anyone be blamed for something that isn't them? Why shouldn't those guys that can't handle themselves man the fuck up and take some responsbility for themselves?

Hell, even the GM of the guild in question posted and stated this is basically the case, and that women weren't the drama themselves, it was how the guy reacted to them that caused the problems. The bulk of this problem isn't the women, it's the men, and the people who are actually to blame should take some responsibility for their actions.

And thanks for the weird speculation about my personal life. Seriously why do you creepers think thats an appropriate way to talk to someone? My personal life is no more relevant or appropriate to discuss than yours is. Why is it that just being a woman means it's open season on my personal life whenever you want, but if I were to mention it I'd automatically be branded an ewhore? Seems fair amitrite?

**Theholypally** · 2012-08-19, 12:59 AM

No one is denying what males do when females are around. Some are respectful, others become nasty, and females react in one of two ways: they get offended, and thus begins the downfall for them. Or, they fire back and grow a thick skin (just like every raider male or female does when they apply to a new guild and AGREE to accept criticism and some explicitness in guild chat and on vent). Im not talking about sexual comments or "omg a girl on vent say something" im talking about raiding criticism, recruit trial periods where they are constantly put under the microscope.

If you are playing this game, you know that people vary in how they act. Playing the victim and expecting an entire guild to cater to ones personal values is only going to net you a loss in the end. Playing along, on the other hand, will get you a place among 'the guys' and you will be one of them. If you are a super feminist who doesnt want to 'let the man get you down' then so be it, thats your choice, just dont expect warm welcomes or sympathy votes from that many people.

Ive always treated male and female raiders the same exact way. Ill tell a female raider she totally blows at her class just like i would tell a male raider. There is no gender in my mind when im looking over a persons performance. That doesnt mean that i am a sexist pig when i say that women bring drama to guilds. Its the truth, everyone (even females) know its the truth. Some THRIVE on it and some have no clue they are doing it.

A lot of guilds choose to either 1) skip the drama all together or 2) recruit both genders and see what happens. It doesnt change anything, when drama starts happening (raid spots, loot, favoritism, etc) then people will open their eyes.

There is no point in denying it. Im not saying females suck at playing, i know some VERY awesome girl players and i also know some guild whores who do nothing but use their gender to get what they want. Men cant do that (even if they wanted to) unless it was a guild full of females, even then...its still a maybe.

The majority of the females i know since i started playing in vanilla are awesome. There have been many though that fall under what ive been talking about as well.

**Suikoden** · 2012-08-19, 01:01 AM

Some of the best raiders I've ever raided with have been female...

**pocky_rin** · 2012-08-19, 01:13 AM

I guess just the vocal minority ruin it for everyone else. I am a female raider, and I also handle recruitments, I can say hand on heart I am less likely to feel happy about recruiting another girl. My guild has been around like 6-7 years now and we have seen MANY types of females. It is not the only type of female out there, but a huge amount of the ones we happen to have seen have either been drama starters or the "girlfriend player". The girlfriend player refers to the girlfriend of a guy massively into WoW, who is encouraged into the game just to spend more time with him, is usually boosted to max level, and knows nothing about her class at all. This couple usually cries and leaves if one of them can't get into the same raid. I have been on the lookout for many years for a normal, like minded female to raid with, one that actually cares about her gameplay and not about messing with the menfolk. I'm just a pretty competitive person, hence playing dps not the "usual" healing class :P

**Deadmedic** · 2012-08-19, 01:50 AM

well, from personal experience, i have never been able to tell a girl that i have raided with that their spec sucked and have it NOT cause a big issue. it would seem that girls, as being "girl gamers" tend to not like being called out about things like dps/gear/talents whatever, because maybe they think im treating them like some stereotype, the girl that doesnt know how to play their class. when really, i just want them to be the right damn spec, and yell at all my raiders that try to come to a raid with like wand specialization or some such shit. every time i call out a girl though, they have a tendency to do things like emo-out and ninja log, or ignore me, or change it, be pissy about it for the rest of the raid, then show up with the spec reverted the very next raid, maybe its just the ppl i have played with, but things like that are the reason i could see some guilds having rules like that.

**Ratanna** · 2012-08-19, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Windfury

Hell, even the GM of the guild in question posted and stated this is basically the case, and that women weren't the drama themselves, it was how the guy reacted to them that caused the problems. The bulk of this problem isn't the women, it's the men, and the people who are actually to blame should take some responsibility for their actions.

i'm not saying main reason is because the men. My members do not have a problem with women. But changing the flow and the raid leading to cater to a woman then yes there is a problem. That would be an instance of favoritism. What it MAINLY is their ability to fit well in our raiding environment and thrive off the current leadership. I do not want to waste their time and more importantly my time if they will not be a good fit. This was a decision made off of time available and past experiences. Please do not misquote me.

**dalliah1** · 2012-08-19, 02:31 AM

I'm a girl and an excellent badass raider. I've been through quite a few hard mode guilds and never ever ever have I ever come across a guild that prohibits females.

And I can play a dps just as well as a healer too... if not better (I've ranked enough times on a demo lock in firelands and a fire mage in ICC to prove that)

**Shadylol** · 2012-08-19, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by dalliah1

I'm a girl and an excellent badass raider. I've been through quite a few hard mode guilds and never ever ever have I ever come across a guild that prohibits females.

And I can play a dps just as well as a healer too... if not better (I've ranked enough times on a demo lock in firelands and a fire mage in ICC to prove that)

The fact that the first thing you said is "I'm a girl" kind of makes me wonder about you. My friends and I call this the "I AM A WOMAN" type/mentality, and it's something we tried to avoid in WoW. For the record, some of the friends that shared that sentiment were girls/women themselves, so you can't say we're just a bunch of sexist young men

At any rate, Ratanna has explained multiple times that he's not excluded women to be mean to women. He just doesn't have the time to deal with girl drama (or even potential girl drama). I've been in "hardcore" raiding guilds that allowed women, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the Raid leaders have to deal with a lot of extra nonsense from women, or even just having women in the guild, and the drama that can arise from men as a result of that

I've seen women cyber the DKP officer, to try to get extra DKP, I've seen a woman get kicked for being bad and her husband leave as a result, I've seen the typical "I'M A GIRL LOVE ME" teenager shit, and countless other examples

I played WoW for several years, and over that time I saw plenty of women that were good at the game, and didn't cause any drama, but I also saw way, way more who were either awful, caused drama, or both. I can totally see the logic in having a no girls allowed policy, and I've been in top guilds that had this policy

Point being, that if a Raid leader/Guild leader has the time to deal with girl drama, and doesn't mind the potential for it, then it's A-Okay to let women raid with you. The Guild leader in question here has stated, and explained multiple times that he does not have time for this, and just wishes to avoid it altogether. If you want to raid with women, that's fine, but some of us are more busy outside of WoW

**Bremmon** · 2012-08-19, 03:01 AM

Drama drama drama... women have killed more guilds than I can care to count..

**vMoPPy** · 2012-08-19, 03:03 AM

My guild has three females in our core 25 man roster. Two of which are DPS which rank in the top 8 on almost all fights, and a healer who absolutely blows people away. Not only is she an amazing healer, she is also co-gm of our amazing HM guild. She shows valuable skills with many of the challenges that come with that position.

I for one support gender equality, and being female in WoW means nothing. Women are just as good as men in nearly everything.

**Windfury** · 2012-08-19, 03:15 AM