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  1. #1

    Hit/Expertise caps for prot...

    Anyone checked out hit and expertise caps for prot or made any tests in reguards to how important it is to be at cap? What are the caps going to be set at?

  2. #2
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Being merely a paladin (albeit one who plays warrior tank as first alt) I can't give you a certain answer, but the way it's shaping up for paladins is that it's not one of our first stats to begin stacking, but it's pretty damn close.

    Keep in mind they're reducing hit cap to 7.5% and expertise cap to 7.5% as well, rather than 8%. Reason they're useful stats is that it helps you generate rage which can then be used for your active mitigation. However, looking at the protection warrior mastery, that won't be helped out by being hit capped like it would be for paladins which is what I know about - therefore, Hit is looking like an effective stat but it's not above dodge/parry/mastery by the looks of things ALTHOUGH DO NOT TAKE THAT AS THE GODSPOKEN TRUTH IT'S MERELY APPLICATION OF LOGIC - CORRECTNESS NOT GUARANTEED.

    Keep in mind also that hit will be equal to expertise unless you have any spells that benefit from hit but not expertise, as that would place hit above exp. Looking through my warrior on the PTR this is not the case therefore hit = exp in terms of usefulness.

    If you wanted me to take a logical guess, you'd be looking at something like the following:

    Parry > Dodge > Mastery > Hit = Exp

    But please, do take that with a pinch of salt. It's just guesswork and logic application. Considering the revenge mechanic, as dodge and parry increases, the value of hit/expertise will increase as well due to how the Revenge cooldown will reset, so come later tiers (or maybe earlier) Hit and Expertise may surpass mastery in terms of usefulness. We're at this point in the protection paladin discussion now so I can't be of any more use than that. Hopefully someone who mains a warrior can give you a better answer but this would be what I would forsee.
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    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Some people on the official forums are stating it's:

    Exp > Hit > Parry = Mastery >>>> Dodge, with Dodge being all but worthless now. They also state to gem Stamina, even ignoring socket bonuses (these are normal players, not world first players). I've also seen the idea to go heavy on Parry/Dodge (for more Revenge procs).

    Hackbar confused. Hackbar not sure what to do. Maybe Hackbar experiment later.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2012-08-18 at 11:25 AM.
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  4. #4
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Exp being higher than hit would only make sense if you have rage building attacks (or just any tbh) which can be dodged/parried but not miss. If all your abilities can be dodge/parried AND missed then the 2 stats are equal.

    Parry has a cap of 235% now for paladins making it fantastic and the strength scaling is fantastic, so I guess it's probably similar for warriors. Dodge is far lower, hence making Parry > Dodge and then if you guys still have Hold The Line then it's even better. Parry rises faster and suffers from diminishing returns less.

    Stacking stamina sounds odd to be honest. On the paladin forums we're on about using hybrid avoidance+stamina gems up until we have enough stamina to make our healers not brick it, then pure avoidance gems.

    It's odd really and it's the same problem we have on paladin forums. If you guys stack avoidance you get more revenge procs so having less hit/exp you will still get the same amount of rage which is what you need. We have a slightly different issue but it's not too dissimilar. To get hit/exp you're going to have to sacrifice a lot of stats. The other upside of hit/expertise is threat but I don't know if warriors have issues with that.

    Problem is (for paladins so I'm just going to cross it over) that all the stat weights are so similar it's unbelievable. For us, Dodge Parry Mastery Strength are all withing 0.01 of each other with Hit about about 60% of the value and then expertise about 40%. For you guys, hit and exp will be the same unless I'm missing something obvious as it's the same amount of stats required to cap them.

    Debate we have going on is Avoidance stacking with a small focus on hit/expertise whilst not actively going for it. The upside for you warriors is lots of Revenge procs this way but lower threat, but it also increases your uptime of your active mitigation spells. The other choice paladins have is rushing hit cap then stacking mastery, which I don't see as valuable for warriors as your mastery doesn't increase your active mitigation.

    I'll do some testing myself when I'm not too busy with paladins but something we've been looking at is keeping hit/expertise to a reasonable value like 4-5% and then getting as much parry as possible, and then once at about 15% dodge (which is for paladins where masteyr becomes better) reforging dodge into mastery. Something to consider because the 2 classes aren't hugely dissimilar so maybe we can cross some things, but will need to do some testing to be certain.
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  5. #5
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I'm going to be trying getting some Hit/Exp but not actively reforging to it like i do with my Arms gear to hit the caps. I'll probably reforge the same way I do on Live unless I see concrete evidence to do otherwise: That means to Mastery if it doesn't have Mastery, to Parry/Dodge (higher to lower) if it has Parry/Dodge, and reforge Hit/Expertise to Mastery/Parry/Dodge as I see fit.
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  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    why is parry better then dodge? i though both abilities did the exact same thing in cata so what did they change in mop?
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  7. #7
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    why is parry better then dodge? i though both abilities did the exact same thing in cata so what did they change in mop?
    Not an expert so don't quote me but I recall reading that Parry has higher DR than Dodge, due to getting it from Strength so we're swimming in Parry, thus inherently Parry is better than Dodge for Str tanks because we'll have much more of it (I'm assuming the reverse is true for Bears and Monks); since there is no longer a difference I don't think we have any drawbacks to stacking Parry over Dodge. Which makes more sense if you think about it; a guy in plate with a weapon + shield or a big 2H weapon is more likely to parry your attacks, not dodge, while a leather wearing martial artist or a ferocious, muscular animal is more likely to dodge out of the way.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2012-08-19 at 01:32 PM.
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  8. #8
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    After some calculations, I came to the conclusion that survivability-wise, Mastery is better than Hit and Expertise.
    This is because the RPS you're getting from Hit and Expertise capping, isn't enough to surpass the survivability you get from Block and Critical blocks, you'll be getting from Mastery.

    In fact, the only time Hit and Expertise becomes better survivability stats for us Warriors is when you're dealing with a caster, or an enemy that doesn't melee you very often, or extremely slowly.
    In that case, you wouldn't get enough Rage from Critical Blocks, and you wouldn't mitigate enough damage through Blocks neither, and thus being able to generate more Rage, thanks to threat stats, and have more uses of Shield Barrier, becomes a more appealing option.

    Mastery is also better than Dodge/Parry, because of the high diminishing returns on those 2 avoidance stats. Stacking them over Mastery will only help create more ''spikiness'' in the damage you take, as you'll never have enough to ''smoothen'' enough in coming damage, which complicates things for your healer.

    You can find more on this here, and there.
    Last edited by L Kebess; 2012-08-19 at 02:59 PM.

  9. #9
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Parry is better than dodge because the "cap" for where you no longer benefit from parry rating is 235%. In cata, it's about 63% I think, tops. You're going to have a LOT more parry than you will dodge, and parry will rise very quickly.

    Dodge will still suffer a bit from diminishing returns but nothing noticeable. Parry even less so. What you're saying might be correct for warriors in terms of mastery > parry > dodge, I can't be certain, but to say it's because of "high diminishing returns" on those avoidance stats is just incorrect because the parry cap has been raised so high that it suffers from diminishing returns to such an unbelievably pathetic extent. There may be other reasons why mastery > avoidance but diminishing returns is not one of them, because mastery is also self deprecating in pandaland due to the two tiered roll system.
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  10. #10
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Parry is better than dodge because the "cap" for where you no longer benefit from parry rating is 235%. In cata, it's about 63% I think, tops. You're going to have a LOT more parry than you will dodge, and parry will rise very quickly.

    Dodge will still suffer a bit from diminishing returns but nothing noticeable. Parry even less so. What you're saying might be correct for warriors in terms of mastery > parry > dodge, I can't be certain, but to say it's because of "high diminishing returns" on those avoidance stats is just incorrect because the parry cap has been raised so high that it suffers from diminishing returns to such an unbelievably pathetic extent. There may be other reasons why mastery > avoidance but diminishing returns is not one of them, because mastery is also self deprecating in pandaland due to the two tiered roll system.
    I didn't mention ''Parry vs Dodge'' in my post. I said Mastery > Dodge/Parry.

    Now if I understand you correctly, you do agree that it's the case, BUT you don't agree DR is part of the reason why.

    In fact, to be more accurate there are at least three reasons to this.
    First one is you need much more Dodge/Parry Rating than Mastery, to increase them by 1%.

    You'll always need 273 Mastery Rating to increase Mastery by 1%, and this never changes as Mastery have no DR, whilst you'll already need some 900 Parry/Dodge rating (at only 10-15% of those), to increase them by 1%. This is already over 3 time more. Meaning you'll need much more Parry/Dodge to increase them.

    The second reason is DR, which worsens the first reason even some more, as the more of those stats you'll have the more you'll need to have even some more %tages.
    I should have been more clearer, yes, because by DR, I meant the cumulations of those first two reasons, not just the second. My bad.

    Now the third reason is, a parried or dodged attack will nullify that attack. So If you have low amounts of those stats, you'll tend to get hit several times in a row then avoid one and not take any damage for a few seconds, then suddenly take another full hit and drop in HP. This is what I mean by ''spikiness''.

    Mastery will help avoid this better than Parry/Dodge because a blocked attack is only reduced by 30% (or 60%) and not fully, meaning there won't be as much difference, and thus ''spikiness'', when you don't block an attack.
    So you won't surprise your healer as much as fully avoiding 2 attacks in a row, then suddenly getting hit by 2 others in a row.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 03:55 PM ----------

    Now in order to make Parry/Dodge smoothen incoming damage enough, and make them better than Mastery, you'll need a really high amount of those stats (I honesty haven't looked at that amount in question).

    And since avoidance stats are even harder to increase than Mastery, you'll never possibly get to the point where they become better spikiness reduction stats than Mastery.
    And so in that sens, Mastery is better.
    Last edited by L Kebess; 2012-08-19 at 04:17 PM.

  11. #11
    can't make a big post cause I'm on my phone

    mastery being on a separate roll is one of two reasons

    the other being that during situations of potential high boss melee damage we will be using shield block as often as possible, during which time the block chance from mastery is nullified

    is there still a limitation on the frequency you can cast shield block? if so what's the max uptime?

  12. #12
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warheart View Post
    can't make a big post cause I'm on my phone

    mastery being on a separate roll is one of two reasons

    the other being that during situations of potential high boss melee damage we will be using shield block as often as possible, during which time the block chance from mastery is nullified
    Yes, the block chance would be nullified, but not the Critical Block chance from Mastery.
    And if you have a high uptime on Shield Block, that CB part is really significant, as it will help even more to reduce incoming damage, in addition of reducing spikiness as well, which is eventually our ultimate goal -- reducing damage AND spikiness.

    Reducing spikiness and reducing incoming damage, are 2 different things,
    however Shield Block + a high amount of Mastery, have the capability of doing both, whilst Dodge/Parry only have the capability of reducing damage, but not spikiness, in most cases they create more spikiness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Warheart View Post
    is there still a limitation on the frequency you can cast shield block? if so what's the max uptime?
    Shield Block can be up 2/3 of the time after the initial 2 charges.
    Last edited by L Kebess; 2012-08-19 at 11:23 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    Shield Block can be up 2/3 of the time after the initial 2 charges.
    In theory can't we have it up 100% for the first 24s and then 66.6% after 24s?

    Also are there any links out for how stam will play into our gemming/trinkets in MoP?

  14. #14
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puntr View Post
    In theory can't we have it up 100% for the first 24s and then 66.6% after 24s?
    Yes, because of those 2 initial 9 sec CD charges, you can have SB active for the 24 seconds. But this is only because we have 2 charges with a 9 sec CD to bigging with. I personally think it's a bit too much. I don't like this whole idea of charges. They should simply give it a 9 sec CD with a 6 sec uptime, and leave it at that.

    With this mechanics, there's almost no room to place your Sbar, unless an attack is unblocable. Which limits drastically any real rotation with our shielding abilities.

  15. #15
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    With this mechanics, there's almost no room to place your Sbar, unless an attack is unblocable. Which limits drastically any real rotation with our shielding abilities.
    Isn't that the point, though? Isn't Block the go-to ability unless we have unblockable damage (e.g. Void Bolt, Focused Assault, Hour of Twilight, Impale)? With all due respect for your videos, I never thought the idea of those abilities was to use them in a rotation, it was either you need to block, or you need to absorb, and you chose accordingly.

    On topic, I plan to get at least some Hit/Expertise although I'm probably going to stick with avoidance stats for the most part. A lot of the gear seems to have Hit/Expertise (some more than others, it seems in many cases we have a choice between getting Hit/Exp and an avoidance stat, or two avoidance stats, so there's a choice for gear). Depending on the amount of Parry we'll be getting from the Strength on gear, we could use the Expertise/Mastery hybrid gem (orange) for yellow sockets, with Mastery/Stam (green) for blue and Parry/Stam (purple) for red.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2012-08-20 at 11:44 AM.
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  16. #16
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Isn't that the point, though? Isn't Block the go-to ability unless we have unblockable damage (e.g. Void Bolt, Focused Assault, Hour of Twilight, Impale)? With all due respect for your videos, I never thought the idea of those abilities was to use them in a rotation, it was either you need to block, or you need to absorb, and you chose accordingly.
    The idea was to have an active mitigation system. If we can have SB active 100% of the time in many cases then, in my opinion it has nothing that active about it.

    However, if we can only have it sometimes (2/3 of the time from the start), and have to manage an extra ability like the SBar actively, meaning according to our life, when SB wouldn't be available, things would be much more ''active'' and dependent on your reactivity.

    This is why I prefer the previous version. Even though it had still 2 charges, they had a 15 sec CD instead, making the use of SBar more ''linked'' to your SB. It wasn't something hard to understand or too demanding, it simply needed a bit more awareness in order to have the best performance.

    Right now it simply not the case. You can go ahead and spam SB, and only use, SBar as a ''minor CD'' to mitigate unblocable damage.

    I find it less active, and a bit too spammy, but this is only my view on the matter. No worries at all, if you see things differently, ; )

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-20 at 04:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    On topic, I plan to get at least some Hit/Expertise although I'm probably going to stick with avoidance stats for the most part. A lot of the gear seems to have Hit/Expertise (some more than others, it seems in many cases we have a choice between getting Hit/Exp and an avoidance stat, or two avoidance stats, so there's a choice for gear). Depending on the amount of Parry we'll be getting from the Strength on gear, we could use the Expertise/Mastery hybrid gem (orange) for yellow sockets, with Mastery/Stam (green) for blue and Parry/Stam (purple) for red.
    Threat stats are good to have. In many cases, they make your Rage flow more predictable and controllable, and I'm sure gonna go for some as well, but understand that in most cases, Mastery is better to mitigate more damage. And if you're tanking multiple mobs, then Mastery get extremely better than Hit and Expertise, even as a Rage generator.

    The best way to do things would be to have 2 stets of gear. One with more Hit&Exp and less Mastery for when you're dealing with nonblocable (or less blocable) damage, or when you want your Rage flow to be more predictable and controllable,
    and another set with more Mastery but less Hit&Exp for all the other times.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-20 at 04:44 PM ----------

    And if you can't afford two sets, then you'd be better off having those stats all balanced, rather than focusing on one particular stat.
    Last edited by L Kebess; 2012-08-20 at 04:31 PM.

  17. #17
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I meant more in one of your videos you had the use of Block/Barrier in a rotation; I think it was Block, then Barrier when you were below 50% health, then Block again, something like that. I meant more like I don't think it's rotational, but Block is ONLY used versus physical damage, and Barrier is ONLY used versus magical or unblockable damage.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    On topic, I plan to get at least some Hit/Expertise although I'm probably going to stick with avoidance stats for the most part. A lot of the gear seems to have Hit/Expertise (some more than others, it seems in many cases we have a choice between getting Hit/Exp and an avoidance stat, or two avoidance stats, so there's a choice for gear).
    I built this set as our BiS t14

    MH - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87173
    Shield - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87050
    Head - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87199
    Neck - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=90509
    Shoulder - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87201
    Cloak - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87159
    Chest - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87197
    Wrist - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87001
    Gloves - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=86956
    Belt - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87185
    Pants - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87200
    Boots - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=90507
    Ring - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=86946
    Ring - http://mop.wowhead.com/item=86968

    Since Mastery ~= Stam depending on the fight it will be a combo of these trinkets
    http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87083 (Stam)
    http://mop.wowhead.com/item=89079 (Stam)
    http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87160 (Mastery)
    http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87063 (Mastery)

    WoWHead comparison link - Comparison

    And without reforges or gems (since wowhead doesn't have them in the comparison yet and chardev isn't updated to the latest build) you're looking at a base of 6.81% Exp and 4.54% hit. Without even gemming/reforging which is ~1RPS lower than capped exp/hit according to a RPS spreadsheet from tankspot.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    I meant more in one of your videos you had the use of Block/Barrier in a rotation; I think it was Block, then Barrier when you were below 50% health, then Block again, something like that. I meant more like I don't think it's rotational, but Block is ONLY used versus physical damage, and Barrier is ONLY used versus magical or unblockable damage.
    Yes I understand what you mean. But I never disagreed with the fact that Sblock is ONLY used on blocable damage (there's 0 point in using it if you can't even block the attack)
    What you have to understand is in most cases there will be much more blocable damage than non blocable damage, and that basic rotation I suggested was only there for those situations were blocable damage is higher than nonblocable damage - I clearly specified it in the analysis.

    Right now, with the current state of SBlock there's no point in keeping that rotation, as you can actually spend ALL of your rage in SBlock, but this wasn't the case when I made that analysis. At that time SB had a lower uptime, with a longer CD, which made it that even when we kept it up at its maximum uptime, we still had plenty of Rage left,
    Rage that could then be used in our Sbarrier (since we couldn't possibly use it in any other defensive spell), and thus in that build, having the rotation I suggested made total sense.

    Since they have decided to make it that we can spend all of our Rage in SBlock, however, there's no point in having that rotation any longer. And this is what I dislike, because the choice we have to do is not as engaging as it was back then.
    As you just summarized it, right now, in most cases, you need SBarrier ONLY on nonblocable damage. This is too basic, and not as active as I was hoping for.

    Notice that even before, when the rotation I suggested was applicable, this last part was still also applicable,
    in the sense that, you still wanted SBarrier on non blocable damage, and absolutely not SBlock. This was also specified in that analysis.
    The difference is right now, that is ONLY what we have left, and the rotation part is simply gone... which makes our use of those 2 abilities really less engaging.
    Last edited by L Kebess; 2012-08-20 at 07:17 PM.

  20. #20
    so correct me if I am wrong, but what I get from this is hit/expertise will = threat generation while mastery/dodge/parry will =rage (and avoidance...no brainer) so what we are trying to find is that fine line where threat isn't an issue so hopefully we will have plenty of rage?

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