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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire Arthur-the-exalted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    You must be new to ret.
    Na he plays a rouge or dk

  2. #42
    Moderator Azshira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    I am seriously thinking about attending anger management classes. But it'd prolly be better to just cancel the sub and call this game history.
    If you get that upset over this, then the latter is highly recommended.

    OP: As others suggested its merely a reversal of some nerfs, ret is in no better place than what it was previous due to as others also have said, other classes got plenty of buffs. I would encourage talking about builds within the intended thread unless its a specific question etc. I'm sure by the time the game reaches live classes will be quite even overall, maybe the odd spec here and there performs better, GCs latest post makes a lot of sense to me.

    " We think it's cool when an encounter happens to play to your strengths, and it can also be fun when an encounter emphasizes your weaknesses and then it's up to you to try and overcome those challenges.

    Also, there are only a few fights where absolute DPS is the key to winning. Mastering mechanics usually has a much bigger impact on success. Players tend to downplay that in their quest for chart-topping DPS. Plenty of people raided (and even had fun doing so) back when DPS specs did double or triple the damage of each other. That's not an attempt to escape from balancing the game, but from where I stand, players overall place far too much emphasis on balance equaling fun."


    What do you make of the last line? I think he's right, you should play the class you like, it should not all be about the numbers, yes they are important for a number of things but would you really want to play a class you hate just because it is 5k higher (for example) than the one you like? It's great the community is passionate about the numbers and I think ret is behind where it should but sims can only go so far and so can parses in showing you numbers. Give the devs the next few beta builds needed and you might just start seeing it all falling into place. There has been plenty warning and it's common knowledge that near the end of beta majority of number tweaking occurs. I personally love reading patch notes for everything but take everything with a grain of salt because the following build may make you think different.
    Last edited by Azshira; 2012-08-17 at 05:22 PM.
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  3. #43
    I view that line as kind of a cop-out? I mean, the world won't end if I fail at my job, but I'm being paid not to screw up, right? I'm pretty sure a big part of mmo-dev involves balance.

    Now, I do agree that dps meters aren't the be-all end-all of balance. But they have eliminated a lot of non-dps-meter kinds of things.


    I think in the end, ret is one of the specs that they have a hard time with. Holy plate existing means that a decent number of 10 man guilds already run a paladin, so when you slot a ret you are costing another class presence, so I think that makes Blizzard timid when it comes to providing a "thing that is best at" to rets. That thing can't encourage guilds to mainswap away from their rogue or lock or whatever, so we end up with some halfassed design from time to time.

  4. #44
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathiest's Avatar
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    I'm glad they choose to undo their ridiculous nerfs from the previous build. Nerfs that where clearly created out of spite.

    Still this is no "buff".
    this is my signature... jealous?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Azshira View Post
    What do you make of the last line? I think he's right, you should play the class you like, it should not all be about the numbers, yes they are important for a number of things but would you really want to play a class you hate just because it is 5k higher (for example) than the one you like? It's great the community is passionate about the numbers and I think ret is behind where it should but sims can only go so far and so can parses in showing you numbers. Give the devs the next few beta builds needed and you might just start seeing it all falling into place. There has been plenty warning and it's common knowledge that near the end of beta majority of number tweaking occurs. I personally love reading patch notes for everything but take everything with a grain of salt because the following build may make you think different.
    I don't care if I'm not #1. I care if I'm almost 18% lower than #1.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Azshira View Post
    I'm sure by the time the game reaches live classes will be quite even overall, maybe the odd spec here and there performs better
    Like they did at beginning of Cataclysm, before patch 4.0.6? Don't feed us false informations, we're not children (at least some ) and still remember how it was..

  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    True that is just some "Its ok if we fuck you up, unbalenced game is still fun".

    Just make him fight Mike Tyson and come back to repeat that again.

  8. #48
    Moderator Azshira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRaven View Post
    Like they did at beginning of Cataclysm, before patch 4.0.6? Don't feed us false informations, we're not children (at least some ) and still remember how it was..
    Partially that was due to them adding Holy Power into the beta and made changes to things right before the release of Cata, they did that so badly... It's like saying "wait a second lets just make all this different and have minimal testing time and it will be ok". Holy Power is in a much better position as of today and I agree we had to sit our Ret Pala out, he didn't even want to raid he was so badly affected of how rets were. Then months later they started to become viable, it was awful to have that take months. That ret pala has long since quit the game, not due to him saying they are doing a bad job to ret, he just out-grew the game.

    I say give them numbers on their dummies etc and see how things change over the next few weeks. Afterall, the only info we got on what a pala in full heroic t14 is through sims and Blizzard warns us these are not entirely accurate, maybe ret will be in a lot better shape in proper raid gear, and of course any tweaks they make in the meantime. Ret is not the only spec crying out for buffs, but it is a spec that is given the short end of the stick for so long during different expansions, heck it wasn't even considered viable to play before the WOTLK patch came to TBC (same as boomkins), but people still played it, not many mind you. I only use ret as my offspec, I'll always be a main spec holy, but I do enjoy ret in solo, dungeons and raids.

    I know it's dis-heartening to see your spec low, but preserver and give them the numbers, also if US posters would post EU numbers to them also (Im not sure if blues in EU give them data we compile...) Let's see what the next few builds bring
    Last edited by Azshira; 2012-08-17 at 06:33 PM. Reason: few spelling errors
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  9. #49
    After running a fair number of sims for 85 BiS profiles, it's pretty safe to say that most classes are right in the 40-45K range when done correctly. Some classes, though, are definitely going to need a band-aid fix in order to be even (Warlocks are crazy high). This post is mostly just a fair warning to those that haven't experience the joy of the time between expansions, as it's pretty nasty for the first few days.

  10. #50
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshira View Post
    Partially that was due to them adding Holy Power into the beta and made changes to things right before the release of Cata, they did that so badly... It's like saying "wait a second lets just make all this different and have minimal testing time and it will be ok". Holy Power is in a much better position as of today and I agree we had to sit our Ret Pala out, he didn't even want to raid he was so badly affected of how rets were. Then months later they started to become viable, it was awful to have that take months. That ret pala has long since quit the game, not due to him saying they are doing a bad job to ret, he just out-grew the game.

    I say give them numbers on their dummies etc and see how things change over the next few weeks. Afterall, the only info we got on what a pala in full heroic t14 is through sims and Blizzard warns us these are not entirely accurate, maybe ret will be in a lot better shape in proper raid gear, and of course any tweaks they make in the meantime. Ret is not the only spec crying out for buffs, but it is a spec that is given the short end of the stick for so long during different expansions, heck it wasn't even considered viable to play before the WOTLK patch came to TBC (same as boomkins), but people still played it, not many mind you. I only use ret as my offspec, I'll always be a main spec holy, but I do enjoy ret in solo, dungeons and raids.

    I know it's dis-heartening to see your spec low, but preserver and give them the numbers, also if US posters would post EU numbers to them also (Im not sure if blues in EU give them data we compile...) Let's see what the next few builds bring
    Indeed this is exactly why a lot of Retri players are so frustrated and so worried that they don't want that nightmare experience at the start of Cata to be repeated because it seems to me (and some others as well) that Blizzard is struggling with Retri spec direction which is the reason why it's one of the specs that got the most changes in WoW history (with hunters, warriors and lock but not as much as Ret tbh).
    Last edited by Velshin; 2012-08-17 at 06:51 PM.

  11. #51
    Keyboard Turner Salahudin's Avatar
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    Azshira ,

    First post here, been a loyal ret paladin since 2009 and this is my second paladin that i started when i joined wow again in WOTLK. I can understand the "logic" if you can call it that as to why paladins are where they are, but this statement that you have quoted above makes no sense whatsoever. It is like telling someone in a FPS, its okay if you have a glock that fires 9mm rounds and the other player has a cannon strapped to tank that can dole out x10 your damage, if you like your class you will like the game.

    In fairness, yes some of that is true, but wow also has a highly competitive aspect, be it raiding in pve or arena/rbg in pvp. If you are competitively not viable, you will be snubbed for someone who can bring x damage, x utility etc...

    Sorry if i ranted it a bit, also English is not my first language so excuse me if my grammar is incorrect.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Azshira View Post
    " We think it's cool when an encounter happens to play to your strengths, and it can also be fun when an encounter emphasizes your weaknesses and then it's up to you to try and overcome those challenges.

    Also, there are only a few fights where absolute DPS is the key to winning. Mastering mechanics usually has a much bigger impact on success. Players tend to downplay that in their quest for chart-topping DPS. Plenty of people raided (and even had fun doing so) back when DPS specs did double or triple the damage of each other. That's not an attempt to escape from balancing the game, but from where I stand, players overall place far too much emphasis on balance equaling fun."


    What do you make of the last line? I think he's right, you should play the class you like, it should not all be about the numbers, yes they are important for a number of things but would you really want to play a class you hate just because it is 5k higher (for example) than the one you like? It's great the community is passionate about the numbers and I think ret is behind where it should but sims can only go so far and so can parses in showing you numbers. Give the devs the next few beta builds needed and you might just start seeing it all falling into place. There has been plenty warning and it's common knowledge that near the end of beta majority of number tweaking occurs. I personally love reading patch notes for everything but take everything with a grain of salt because the following build may make you think different.
    I think that would make sense if a few things were changed. Here is my take on it and its kind of simple. By giving almost every class the same buff potential or tons of classes with equal buffs they kind of took out the "utility" of hybrid classes and made most kind of the same. So they then said that pure classes doing more dps that hybrid classes was not going to continue to be the case (we started seeing this at the end of bc to be honest and before they even brought it up) and they made it so.

    So we have a bunch of classes with different names that by blizz's standards should be on par with a patchwork style fight on dps. Meaning that since we have no need of utility in the raids if you dps you should be able to be competitive in all fights and be able to do your job without having to worry about anything else like short duration buffs and what not. At best ret has ONLY been competitive on a single boss no gimmick fight ever. They called the class a faceroll class and added a broken mechanic they took from other classes giving the reason it did not work like we wanted it to and did not want to use it anymore (hunger for blood combo point style) and made ret a plate wearing holy rogue. Also to make a note on the faceroll thing, mages at the time were still a one button class.

    So take away everything that makes a class unigue and supposedly standardize all dps for dps rolls and then nerf several classes to the ground and say "its about playing the class you love and raid mechanics not dps even though those other dps classes will outperform you doing the same thing you do on every fight". Thats what I get from that statement. I understand some fights will benefit ranged more than melee but other than that the only things in game that should be different in classes dps should be player skill, FPS/Latency/hardware. Just my opinion.
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  13. #53
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshira View Post
    What do you make of the last line? I think he's right, you should play the class you like, it should not all be about the numbers, yes they are important for a number of things but would you really want to play a class you hate just because it is 5k higher (for example) than the one you like? It's great the community is passionate about the numbers and I think ret is behind where it should but sims can only go so far and so can parses in showing you numbers. Give the devs the next few beta builds needed and you might just start seeing it all falling into place. There has been plenty warning and it's common knowledge that near the end of beta majority of number tweaking occurs. I personally love reading patch notes for everything but take everything with a grain of salt because the following build may make you think different.
    I think he's wrong, balance doesn't neccessarily equal fun, I agree. however having balance equals that players would not feel stressed about playing a lower performing spec, because you enjoy that spec more.
    Also having balance means, that you don't need to reroll to a spec, that you do not enjoy, to keep your spot in the raid team in a top end guild.
    Last edited by Valkiri; 2012-08-17 at 07:11 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkiri View Post
    I think he's wrong, balance doesn't neccessarily equal fun, I agree. however having balance equals that players would not feel stressed about playing a lower performing spec, because you enjoy that spec more.
    Also having balance means, that you don't need to reroll to a spec, that you do not enjoy, to keep your spot in the raid team in a top end guild.
    Then they should just quit the "top-end guild," honestly. When you get into a guild like that, you know what you're getting into.

  15. #55
    I could be wrong about this since I don't follow to closely, but as far as i know, they aren't trying to get all classes doing equal dps with each patch. They have a set dps goal in mind for all dps when the expansion comes out. Even if a class is at that goal already, if they don't feel the class will not scale correctly, they gatta keep adjusting numbers. They also have to make sure all the abilities are doing the % of the damage that they feel they should be. It's not as simple as just buffing/nerfing stuff until the goal dps is reached. So the point I'm poorly trying to make is that comparing us to other classes dps isn't the best idea. I'm not saying there is nothing to worry about and that ret will be perfect when MoP ships(past expansions have proved otherwise), just that other classes really don't have much to do with us atm.

  16. #56
    I still find my paladin my most enjoyable character and ret seems to be the spec out of 9 85s that I always love and never get bored of.

    Side bar: saying the damage % is lower than live means nothing. Remember weapons are getting their damage buffed to compensate to fix low level pvp.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    I still find my paladin my most enjoyable character and ret seems to be the spec out of 9 85s that I always love and never get bored of.

    Side bar: saying the damage % is lower than live means nothing. Remember weapons are getting their damage buffed to compensate to fix low level pvp.
    Not comparing to live. Comparing to warlocks and mages.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    Side bar: saying the damage % is lower than live means nothing. Remember weapons are getting their damage buffed to compensate to fix low level pvp.
    And yet I feel like doing pretty much the same damage than live.
    With double the weapon damage.
    Whenever I think about it, it gets more and more wierd.

    Edit: Talking about ability damage, not actual DPS.
    Last edited by Lexacus; 2012-08-17 at 10:06 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Not comparing to live. Comparing to warlocks and mages.
    I meant those saying "TV is 280 on live and 265 now qqqqq"

    I am quite upset about the gap between us and the top. It's unfair.

  20. #60
    In regards to the earlier post about balance equaling fun.

    I can't have fun knowing full well that playing the class I enjoy playing is holding my group back because Blizzard isn't able to balance properly. I want parity. I want every class to be as close as possible. I want to play as retribution without my raid group thinking to themselves "boy I wish he'd roll X class instead, his DPS is too low".

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