IS VT dispel protection gone?

[Purple]

And you, stuck with a rogue, QQ!
I'm pretty sure VT dispel protection doesn't have damage because that would make it too similar to UA.

I always found that idea pretty ridiculous.

Regardless, UA essentially has two modes of deterrence, silence and damage. Regardless of what is the secondary mode of deterrence, for Shadow Priests, whatever it is still needs to be there. The horror, in my mind, has never been enough. I actually wouldn't mind something that would mess with their ability to act after the Horror falls off, but not remove their ability to act - sort of a Psychic Horror effect that replaces the disarm portion.

[Deleted]

I agree the 3 second fear/horror hasnt been very intimidating. Id love to see Blizzard being abit more creative with this spell. Dont just copy UA if you ask me and add a damage component, we can do better than that

How about this:

Its called "vampiric" touch right? And its supposed to give mana back every tick.

How about it drains the dispellers mana for the amount equal to the ticks remaining.. That should make things alot more interesting.

[Arazen]

I agree the 3 second fear/horror hasnt been very intimidating. Id love to see Blizzard being abit more creative with this spell. Dont just copy UA if you ask me and add a damage component, we can do better than that

How about this:

Its called "vampiric" touch right? And its supposed to give mana back every tick.

How about it drains the dispellers mana for the amount equal to the ticks remaining.. That should make things alot more interesting.

That sounds interesting, but they decided to remove all mana drains, so I guess that it's not coming back. But VT should give back 5% mana (half of the mana gain of a full VT), so Spriests don't run oom.

[Purple]

That sounds interesting, but they decided to remove all mana drains, so I guess that it's not coming back. But VT should give back 5% mana (half of the mana gain of a full VT), so Spriests don't run oom.

Well, going back to his point that it's called Vampiric Touch.. how about a health drain, from the dispelling, to the Shadow Priest, in either a single shot or over time that cannot be dispelled (otherwise what's the point?). It fills the criteria of not being straight damage, goes with the Vampiric theme and fits the thematic frame of the Shadow Priest in general.

Still, if I'm honest, I actually like the Mana thing better, and, if not for their actions toward Mana Burns and Drains, I'd have pushed for that. In fact.. I remember suggesting something similar back before Vampiric Touch had any form of dispel protection at all.

[Lulbalance]

A horror with no DR. (UA for the record is a Silence with no DR)

thanks yea, that's the answer i was looking for.

also, i brought this up in the warlock class discussions..basically saying that with the dispel mechanic changes UA shouldn't have dispel protection. Aff locks are so strong atm that everyone actually agreed, i was stunned. lol.

not to say that VT still shouldn't have horror, but a double penalty seems like overkill.

[TyloBedo]

When you dispel vt the mana cost of your next healing spell within 5 seconds is increased by 100%

When you dispel vt your dispel cool down is increased by 3 seconds

When you dispel vt the lowest health player on te priests team gains a hot healing 1% of their total life per second for 10 seconds



First one make it so people would have to strategically dispel vt when they don't need to heal soon. The second I think is a cool unique effect. The third would make it hard of the other team to gain a kill if they dispel on cd since it gives almost a perma 1% life per second on the kill target

[Yvaelle]

"dot wipes" are not necessarily dispels. On live, cloak of shadows, ice block, divine shield do not trigger the vt horror effect on the main target nor any enemies close by; the spell is considered "removed" rather than "dispelled". Contrast this with Glyph of Shamanistic Rage, which indeed does "dispel" and thus will trigger the backlash effects of vt, ua, and flameshock.

I didn't mean to imply they counted as dispels if that's what you read. In MoP there are a few more (warlocks Unbound Will on a 1m cooldown for example), the point was that all dot wipe abilities and dispels cost us mana. We invest in each VT cast, and recover the mana cost after a few ticks, and then begin gaining a return on our investment. If a class dot wipes them off, then we lose our investment, if a class dispels them off, then we lose our investment - in either case the mana cost is sunk, our cast time that we fought with melee to get off is sunk, and we have nothing to show for it. On Live, our mana regen comes from mana sources - all of which we control - masochism, archangel, dispersion, replenishment, shadowfiend, spirit tap, (and maybe I'm forgetting one). In MoP, we lose masochism and archangel and spirit tap - our main mana returns, to gain VT mana return. Outside of that we're dependent on shadowfiend and dispersion, shadowfiend no longer reduces cooldown via mind flay crits, and dispersion had its pvp cooldown nerfed from 75 seconds to 95 or 120 seconds (mandatory pvp glyph nerfed to be terrible).

So since we're so dependent on VT now, with all the dot wiping and dispels - we lose more than just our damage when its dispelled, we lose our regen - that's very different than what affliction locks and ele shamans lose when their dots are dispelled, yet we have what is in effect - probably the weakest of the three dispel deterrents. I'm fine with them keeping it just a horror effect, but if they do - I'd like it to also reimburse us what we're also losing in that dispel: mana. Alternately, I'd rather they removed the AoE portion of the horror effect (because no one gets hit by that anyways in serious pvp), made it a single target horror effect with a new and exciting deterrent so people had to think about what they were dispelling, and not just dispel on cooldown.

[Verain]

Probably Blizzard isn't acting because you can multidot VT and IIRC they increased the mana return. So even in a 2s you could roll two, and therefore always have one active (you know, unless someone needs to run absolutely any of the things that prevent multidotting in arena).

In any event, they could simply change VT such that when it is removed it gives you the mana, instead of proccing in tiny pieces. Do you think that this will be an issue in mop, with more mana return and dispels on a cooldown?

I also don't think that the "effect removal" things are really that concerning, given that they are all on cooldowns. I think the dispel protection should focus on that. I honestly think that the dispel changes will have unintended consequences. *Personally* my money is on mages being wildly OP, but it could honestly benefit spriests a lot as well because whilst wiping all dots is crippling, the guarantee of no dispels in a window, and the inability to spam dispel two people at once, will be very beneficial. Wild speculation here, but I believe that casters will want to run with other casters, because they will be overloading a single resource, the magic dispel, whereas running with a melee will allow an enemy healer to chase YOUR debuffs.

@Yvaelle, as for what you'll run with me- maybe I'll make you run a second priest to 90 as disc, and Wreck can be on his mage! Also, your example about sinister and backstab is silly, given that every good rogue ability but smokebomb is mirrored on a cat. Go look up maim and kidney, noting the cooldowns!

[AvaEve]

Keep in mind that our mana regen should be balanced around single target encounters. That means having more targets to apply VT to will probably yield us a mana regen surplus. I think the fact that pvp is an elaborate form of a "council fight" will negate the fact that there will be some dot removals and dispels.

[Deleted]

So since we're so dependent on VT now, with all the dot wiping and dispels - we lose more than just our damage when its dispelled, we lose our regen - that's very different than what affliction locks and ele shamans lose when their dots are dispelled, yet we have what is in effect - probably the weakest of the three dispel deterrents. I'm fine with them keeping it just a horror effect, but if they do - I'd like it to also reimburse us what we're also losing in that dispel: mana. Alternately, I'd rather they removed the AoE portion of the horror effect (because no one gets hit by that anyways in serious pvp), made it a single target horror effect with a new and exciting deterrent so people had to think about what they were dispelling, and not just dispel on cooldown.

I didnt really incorporate the multidotting mechanic, most likely yeah we will have a vt up somewhere (maybe start actively dotting pets as well) to have our regen up. So regen might not be a big issue.

Im inspired by your notion of removing the AoE portion of the horror effect though. Healers tend to stay away from dps most of the time, so it doesnt seem very threathening... BUT what IF the horror effect would apply to both the dispeller and the person being dispelled?! I can imagine that would give interesting scenarios where you dont want your dps to be interrupted in their bursts or cc chain or whatever they are doing... I mean when, as a healer, you decide to dispell and eat the 3 second horror, most likely you will not be under heavy pressure. It is more likely you will be in the phase of applying pressure yourself or setting up cc chains, in which case disrupting your team mates would be a bad thing to do.

[Yvaelle]

@Verain

The SS/BS thing was supposed to be silly - I was just poking fun at rogues because they poke the rest of us. Only my daggers are words, shadow words!

I'd be down to play a disc priest in an RMP but I don't have another character slot and don't want to delete an 85, or even my 42 paladin because I feel like I should have a paladin eventually. What I may do then is RAF a second account, that way I can level a priest up on it - and when I'm on my disc account I can use Yvaelle's account to spy on teams to queue dodge, and when I'm on Yvaelle I can use the disc account to do the same.

I didnt really incorporate the multidotting mechanic, most likely yeah we will have a vt up somewhere (maybe start actively dotting pets as well) to have our regen up. So regen might not be a big issue.

Im inspired by your notion of removing the AoE portion of the horror effect though. Healers tend to stay away from dps most of the time, so it doesnt seem very threathening... BUT what IF the horror effect would apply to both the dispeller and the person being dispelled?! I can imagine that would give interesting scenarios where you dont want your dps to be interrupted in their bursts or cc chain or whatever they are doing... I mean when, as a healer, you decide to dispell and eat the 3 second horror, most likely you will not be under heavy pressure. It is more likely you will be in the phase of applying pressure yourself or setting up cc chains, in which case disrupting your team mates would be a bad thing to do.

I'd love it if they made it horror the dispeller and the dispelled for 3 seconds each with no DR, I think that's a much better deterrent than the present. No healer beyond the 1500 bracket is fool enough to stand on their melee and spam vt dispels even when it doesn't have a cooldown - they are certainly not going to do it when it's a much more conscious choice of when/what to dispel. Despite that, the ability can't have damage or healing or anything else attached to it - because it scales infinitely to the number of targets near the dispeller - so blizzard has to balance it around the possibility of horror'ing the entire population of orgrimmar: which will obviously never happen, but it's what's holding the ability back.

[stickyjam]

The old VT from wrath was the best, dispel and eat a truckload of dmg.

[Yvaelle]

The old VT from wrath was the best, dispel and eat a truckload of dmg.

It still didn't hit as hard as UA against targets with resil, but ya I'd be interested in seeing the damage return to it. At the time, UA's damage completely ignored by resilience and had a huge SP coefficient, while ours was affected by resilience twice - been awhile but if I remember right resilience decreased dot and direct damage at different rates, so the VT dispel damage was reduced first as a dot, and then as a seperate direct damage hit on the dispelled target. By contrast, UA's DoT portion was decreased by resilience, but UA's dispelled damage counted as the dispeller punching themselves for that damage - and so skipped resilience. The result was that healers just avoided dispelling UA at any cost, but dispelled VT when the target wasn't our focus - but doing so still kept some of the pressure on the dispelled.

The VT I'd prefer to see would be to remove the AOE portion of the horror and apply horror to both the dispeller and the dispelled (unsure what happens if its the same person). Alternately Horror the dispeller and damage the dispelled could be cool. Or at the least, to horror the dispeller and refund some mana in recompense for the VT-based mana model.

[Verain]

That horror effect would punish melee wildly, plus it would create an issue where players on your team could CC you. The last thing I need is to be gibbed by my OWN healers in a battleground, sitting on cloak and vanish, about to finish a target, and suddenly some tard on MY team fears me into the taurenwarriorsphere.

[Yvaelle]

That horror effect would punish melee wildly, plus it would create an issue where players on your team could CC you. The last thing I need is to be gibbed by my OWN healers in a battleground, sitting on cloak and vanish, about to finish a target, and suddenly some tard on MY team fears me into the taurenwarriorsphere.

You realize that currently Sin and Punishment is an 8 yard radius AoE horror effect with no DR right - and has been all expansion?

Of all that time, I've only landed two multi-horrors off it. One was in like the first month of Cataclysm in Isle of Conquest, I ran to docks, cast VT on a holy paladin who was running in the middle of his horde - and he aoe horrored his entire team dispelling it. That was awesome, but its very rare - and healers are much more conscious of how they are affecting their teammates than dps generally.

The only other multi-horror I've seen was 2-3 months ago in arenas where I feared a rogue, who randomly ran next to his hpal, who dispelled the fear - and horror'd both of them purely by accident. So twice that was a useful mechanic of the 50,000 dispelled VTs I've seen this expansion. 99.995% of the time, it only hits a single target - but currently while UA and Flameshock are far, far, far better dispel deterrents - VT is balanced around the near-impossible possibility of your teams healer trolling you.

VT is a 3 second AoE horror with no DR. Since melee don't dispel magic, the benefit of a horror over a silence is meaningless unless the healer is humping the melee (and against a spriest, that's asking to be multi-feared, so they'd have to be particularly dumb).

UA is a 5 second Silence with no DR and massive damage.

Flameshock dispel gives 90% haste for 6 seconds. That's a Sinestra level buff to my damage (and you know how much my damage skyrockets on that final phase). If spriests had that, I'd re-cast 14 tick VTs on people, it would be like me being able to put up two VTs on the same target - it would be absurd (and is arguably stronger than UA dispel effect for us).

[stickyjam]

You realize that currently Sin and Punishment is an 8 yard radius AoE horror effect with no DR right - and has been all expansion?

Of all that time, I've only landed two multi-horrors off it. One was in like the first month of Cataclysm in Isle of Conquest, I ran to docks, cast VT on a holy paladin who was running in the middle of his horde - and he aoe horrored his entire team dispelling it. That was awesome, but its very rare - and healers are much more conscious of how they are affecting their teammates than dps generally.

The only other multi-horror I've seen was 2-3 months ago in arenas where I feared a rogue, who randomly ran next to his hpal, who dispelled the fear - and horror'd both of them purely by accident. So twice that was a useful mechanic of the 50,000 dispelled VTs I've seen this expansion. 99.995% of the time, it only hits a single target - but currently while UA and Flameshock are far, far, far better dispel deterrents - VT is balanced around the near-impossible possibility of your teams healer trolling you.

VT is a 3 second AoE horror with no DR. Since melee don't dispel magic, the benefit of a horror over a silence is meaningless unless the healer is humping the melee (and against a spriest, that's asking to be multi-feared, so they'd have to be particularly dumb).

UA is a 5 second Silence with no DR and massive damage.

Flameshock dispel gives 90% haste for 6 seconds. That's a Sinestra level buff to my damage (and you know how much my damage skyrockets on that final phase). If spriests had that, I'd re-cast 14 tick VTs on people, it would be like me being able to put up two VTs on the same target - it would be absurd (and is arguably stronger than UA dispel effect for us).

Itd just be nice if shadow had some sort of consideration tht wasn't still more based around damage pressure.3s horror at its current model was horribly lack luster and now to keep it and make it and 4 set bonus is dire, as a 4 set it needs to be more juicy. Especially as the 2 set is exciting either

[Deleted]

I didnt really incorporate the multidotting mechanic, most likely yeah we will have a vt up somewhere (maybe start actively dotting pets as well) to have our regen up. So regen might not be a big issue.

Im inspired by your notion of removing the AoE portion of the horror effect though. Healers tend to stay away from dps most of the time, so it doesnt seem very threathening... BUT what IF the horror effect would apply to both the dispeller and the person being dispelled?! I can imagine that would give interesting scenarios where you dont want your dps to be interrupted in their bursts or cc chain or whatever they are doing... I mean when, as a healer, you decide to dispell and eat the 3 second horror, most likely you will not be under heavy pressure. It is more likely you will be in the phase of applying pressure yourself or setting up cc chains, in which case disrupting your team mates would be a bad thing to do.

This would be a creative and original alternative to the current dispell "punishements" if you ask me. Making it the 4set piece bonus is rubbish, since it doesnt apply to the other dispell mechanics for the rest of classes.

Keeping it in the road of making new and fresh suggestions:

Another option is to have a different punishement besides damage/silence/horror, for example reducing casting time of the dispeller with 50% for x seconds. Dispelling VT now will give some breathing room and prevent massive damage (DP), but opens up the threat of a second burst from which you will have more trouble to recover. Once again, you can even link this to the "vampiric" nature of VT, something like "Dispelling drains power from the mind of the caster, reducing cast time... blahblahblah"

- Horror dispeller and dispelled target
- Draining mana and/or recovering mana to the enemy
- Reducing cast time for x seconds

3 new mechanics to choose from that will keep spriest a unique class..