1. #2301
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    I use wowreforge and manually adjust the stats on the items. Kinda clunky but I don't like anything else better. Just click on the item on the left there and it brings up a stat window
    Ye, but with the upgrades being so cheap right now, it will be a pain to change all those stats

  2. #2302
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Breakpoint or no breakpoint, your dots will still tick faster with more haste. The only thing you gain from reaching a breakpoint is using less GCDs to refresh but since we Warlocks have Soul Burn: Soul Swap, that doesn't matter very much. I'm very familiar with how dots work and haste is best stat for a dot class.
    that isnt what you gain from reaching a haste breakpoint tho. all you essentially get from a haste breakpoint is another tick with a particular dot within its normal duration. ofc that doesnt mean that you wont benefit from more haste, and you're right, haste(altho not technically saying it) does lower the gcd and by extension allowing you to use less time on refreshing dots and more time dpsing. and just for the record, we dont have an unlimited supply of soul shards, so we wont be able to just spam SB:SS' when ever we need to refresh our dots, or we wont have any soul shards for haunt for those occasions when we have supercharged dots up.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-05-24 at 01:26 PM.

  3. #2303
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    that isnt what you gain from reaching a haste breakpoint tho. all you essentially get from a haste breakpoint is another tick with a particular dot within its normal duration. ofc that doesnt mean that you wont benefit from more haste, and you're right, haste(altho not technically saying it) does lower the gcd and by extension allowing you to use less time on refreshing dots and more time dpsing. and just for the record, we dont have an unlimited supply of soul shards, so we wont be able to just spam SB:SS' when ever we need to refresh our dots, or we wont have any soul shards for haunt for those occasions when we have supercharged dots up.
    Between breakpoints your dot duration gets lowered relative to the extra haste beyond the previous breakpoint. That is why you get faster ticks with haste. Lower duration with same amount of ticks = faster ticks. Once you hit a breakpoint, your dot goes back to its standard non-hasted duration, which will let you refresh dots less often. That is all breakpoints give you.

    You get shards from Soul Draining low hp targets as far as I know.

  4. #2304
    im perfectly aware of that, and that was what i wrote, i do agree with you that any additional haste paste the break point still benefits you and that is true, but haste isnt all there is, it might be for spriests, but for locks it differs quite a bit, and the value between mastery and haste is almost neglicable and there isnt only single target fights in ToT, as a rule for locks, you should almost never go far past a break point, and once you reach a haste breakpoint you should always put anything you can over said breakpoint into mastery.

    afaik you cant drain soul all the time, well you can at a dps loss, on most fights in ToT you wont be able to drain soul adds to keep your soul shards high, you have to rely on nightfall procs to recharge your soul shards, most times you'll be sitting at 1 or 0 shards, "hardcasting" your dots.

  5. #2305
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    im perfectly aware of that, and that was what i wrote, i do agree with you that any additional haste paste the break point still benefits you and that is true, but haste isnt all there is, it might be for spriests, but for locks it differs quite a bit, and the value between mastery and haste is almost neglicable and there isnt only single target fights in ToT, as a rule for locks, you should almost never go far past a break point, and once you reach a haste breakpoint you should always put anything you can over said breakpoint into mastery.
    With 2 RPPM trinks and gosup, the stat weight difference between mastery and haste is very big for me according to simcraft, even while i'm at ~11k haste, far away from a breakpoint.

  6. #2306
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    im perfectly aware of that, and that was what i wrote, i do agree with you that any additional haste paste the break point still benefits you and that is true, but haste isnt all there is, it might be for spriests, but for locks it differs quite a bit, and the value between mastery and haste is almost neglicable and there isnt only single target fights in ToT, as a rule for locks, you should almost never go far past a break point, and once you reach a haste breakpoint you should always put anything you can over said breakpoint into mastery.

    afaik you cant drain soul all the time, well you can at a dps loss, on most fights in ToT you wont be able to drain soul adds to keep your soul shards high, you have to rely on nightfall procs to recharge your soul shards, most times you'll be sitting at 1 or 0 shards, "hardcasting" your dots.
    All simulations and practical testing I have done suggests that haste always dominates mastery as a stat even inbetween breakpoints (once you have 2 RPPM trinkets and meta gem). It's not even close for me. The only situation in which I might want to stick with a breakpoint and put the remainder into mastery is on multi-dot fights so that I make sure all dots have the maximum possible duration.

  7. #2307
    Quote Originally Posted by rables View Post
    With 2 RPPM trinks and gosup, the stat weight difference between mastery and haste is very big for me according to simcraft, even while i'm at ~11k haste, far away from a breakpoint.
    simcrafts based on a patchwerk encounter doesnt reflect encounters in ToT tho, well maybe jin'rokh amd ji-kun normal. also the extra procs you might get from that 1k over haste breakpoint is barely noticable, as it will result in like 1-2 extra procs every 100 minutes that might just as easily be waste on trash or downtime like on lei shen's transitions.

  8. #2308
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    simcrafts based on a patchwerk encounter doesnt reflect encounters in ToT tho, well maybe jin'rokh amd ji-kun normal. also the extra procs you might get from that 1k over haste breakpoint is barely noticable, as it will result in like 1-2 extra procs every 100 minutes that might just as easily be waste on trash or downtime like on lei shen's transitions.
    Where are you getting your numbers from?

  9. #2309
    Quote Originally Posted by rables View Post
    Where are you getting your numbers from?
    its simple math really, based on the rppm of the trinkets and hasteratings that you have. for example with breath of the hydra with your amount of haste you would get about an extra 0,015 rppm on average compared to some1 with the 9778 haste breakpoint.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-05-24 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #2310
    The Patient Sparkuggz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    331
    I notice a lot of haste discussions in here, and i wanted to give my 2 cents. You might see a 200 dps increase in Simcraft with error margain making it non dps upgrade to stack mroe haste. You need to remember that simcrafts simulate you 10.000 results of tries, where you see a 0,0000000000000001% higher chance on your RPPM trinkets to proc. Keep in mind you "cap" your highest burst potential lowering your mastery, because mastery just scales the best with dots. If you put one dot line on a mob on Horridon it does more damage with mastery stacking then haste, notice how you go HAM on Prim with mastery buffs? Simcraft is 'overvaluing' haste quite a bit.

    In average you will kill a boss 10-20 times pr tier, that's 9980 less tries then simcraft average, so your 0,15% more rppm trinket proc really doesnt matter! It's RNG, its luck and even with my Thunderforged HC 2/2 Lei shen trinket, last raid i had 3% uptime on Jinrokh and 4% on Mag. I dont think anyone wants to kill a boss 10.000 times to do overall 200 more dps!

    So you need to look into what you should benefit from. If you sacrifice doing a few thousand more on your top DPS parse for doing 200 more DPS overall on 10.000 tries, with how RNG the game is at this state, what would you choose?

    That being said, going agony / UA haste caps > mastery should work out, full BIS + 2/2 upgrade its going to be hard to get rid of all your haste anyway!

    But those saying "go all haste", i really disagree and i tried it out myself. Most fights as Demonology the heavy mastery just shines too. But a good guideline is the 9778 vs the 13k breakpoints, but going for the 13k breakpoint wont increase your DPS if your shit doesnt proc

    we are talking minimal benefits being within error margains and simc is overvaluing haste to such extend that the 20 times you killl a boss you WONT possible be able to justify and see it work out.

    Watch out with the haste stacking, pray to the RNG gods and go ham!

    A good picture showcasing how it works these days, hope you enjoy
    [Method] Sparkuggz | Stream: Sparkuggz | Warlock Guide: Method

  11. #2311
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz View Post
    I notice a lot of haste discussions in here, and i wanted to give my 2 cents. You might see a 200 dps increase in Simcraft with error margain making it non dps upgrade to stack mroe haste. You need to remember that simcrafts simulate you 10.000 results of tries, where you see a 0,0000000000000001% higher chance on your RPPM trinkets to proc. Keep in mind you "cap" your highest burst potential lowering your mastery, because mastery just scales the best with dots. If you put one dot line on a mob on Horridon it does more damage with mastery stacking then haste, notice how you go HAM on Prim with mastery buffs? Simcraft is 'overvaluing' haste quite a bit.

    In average you will kill a boss 10-20 times pr tier, that's 9980 less tries then simcraft average, so your 0,15% more rppm trinket proc really doesnt matter! It's RNG, its luck and even with my Thunderforged HC 2/2 Lei shen trinket, last raid i had 3% uptime on Jinrokh and 4% on Mag. I dont think anyone wants to kill a boss 10.000 times to do overall 200 more dps!

    So you need to look into what you should benefit from. If you sacrifice doing a few thousand more on your top DPS parse for doing 200 more DPS overall on 10.000 tries, with how RNG the game is at this state, what would you choose?

    That being said, going agony / UA haste caps > mastery should work out, full BIS + 2/2 upgrade its going to be hard to get rid of all your haste anyway!

    But those saying "go all haste", i really disagree and i tried it out myself. Most fights as Demonology the heavy mastery just shines too. But a good guideline is the 9778 vs the 13k breakpoints, but going for the 13k breakpoint wont increase your DPS if your shit doesnt proc

    we are talking minimal benefits being within error margains and simc is overvaluing haste to such extend that the 20 times you killl a boss you WONT possible be able to justify and see it work out.

    Watch out with the haste stacking, pray to the RNG gods and go ham!
    Smootie clearly had to do depraved and unspeakable things to appease the RNG gods for that fight.

  12. #2312
    think he sacrificed something innocent to the RNG gods for that like a unicorn or something.

  13. #2313
    Jin'rohk is propably most RNG boss. You should just see my luck in that boss. Once i have had all procs up with DS and LUST in the first pool when we killed the boss, usually when this happens someone messes up and wipes the raid. And fun part is, when i had that "good" RNG our logger forgot to turn logs on, and it would have been +320k parse. Like last time we killed it, 2 wipes, both times i had all procs in the firstpool same time. Then when we killed it in third try i had 10.6% uptime on BotH and 4.5% UVLS, neither of those two procced during pool, 3 times i got Lightning focus and two of them were during the first pool.

  14. #2314
    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    Jin'rohk is propably most RNG boss. You should just see my luck in that boss. Once i have had all procs up with DS and LUST in the first pool when we killed the boss, usually when this happens someone messes up and wipes the raid. And fun part is, when i had that "good" RNG our logger forgot to turn logs on, and it would have been +320k parse. Like last time we killed it, 2 wipes, both times i had all procs in the firstpool same time. Then when we killed it in third try i had 10.6% uptime on BotH and 4.5% UVLS, neither of those two procced during pool, 3 times i got Lightning focus and two of them were during the first pool.
    Tell your logger to install an auto-logging addon. Now the only thing I can forget is to turn on live-logging. Many of them out there, all super lightweight.
    --
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Toy Train Set has been temporarily disabled.

  15. #2315
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz View Post

    That being said, going agony / UA haste caps > mastery should work out, full BIS + 2/2 upgrade its going to be hard to get rid of all your haste anyway!
    Just to clarify to those that may not know, the caps aren't really relevant for single target damage.

    Whilst Simcraft may overvalue haste slightly due to the fact that it's basically total fucking RNG, Haste still sims (barely) higher than Mastery for me single target, even with no PPM trinkets and no Meta gem in the sim.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz View Post

    So you need to look into what you should benefit from. If you sacrifice doing a few thousand more on your top DPS parse for doing 200 more DPS overall on 10.000 tries, with how RNG the game is at this state, what would you choose?
    You could also apply this logic to being hit capped, to a lesser extent. Back in 5.0 everyone went crazy beacuse Simcraft valued hit lower than Mastery, but we all still went with Hit for the sake of RNG, even though a "lucky" Mastery parse would do better on your best parse.

    But yes, good insight.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2013-05-24 at 08:44 PM.

  16. #2316
    The Patient Sparkuggz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    331
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post

    You could also apply this logic to being hit capped, to a lesser extent. Back in 5.0 everyone went crazy beacuse Simcraft valued hit lower than Mastery, but we all still went with Hit for the sake of RNG, even though a "lucky" Mastery parse would do better on your best parse.

    But yes, good insight.
    Well, we dont really have those single target fights either. Thats why im personally keeping an odd eye out for simc results in general, going all HAM haste won't solve much, even on Jinrokh you loose burst in pools with stacked cooldowns playing haste versus heavy mastery. Jin'rokh is exactly a disgusting RNG fight, so we are already doomed there and mastery scales better with the pools imo. Horridon, your row of mastery dots should outdo your haste dots and you only put 1 line on most mobs. This keeps going on for most fights, thats why im just trying to say that people saying "stack" haste, need to look at what we fight and what we need. That they wont see 500 dps increase going all haste on pretty much any fight in ToT! Im not saying STACK MASTERY, so dont get me wrong here, im just trying to state why i think simc valuates haste in a way to good manner for some people to be fooled, that disregards gear, ilvl and goes haste without thinking a second thought.

    Example:
    Reforging 2k mastery into haste for me, looses me a good +13-14k DPS (GoSac and GoSup) on the CD burst so lets say i dropped another 6k from 9778 to 16k we might be looking at +20-30k or more~~ DPS druing burst. This is not even looking at the pools / how it would work there timing CD's inside.

    With GoSup my highest DPS try in simcraft is around the same with either mastery or haste, with GoSac my highest DPS try went up by 3k DPS and minimum highest DPS try went up with 1k in the 2k more mastery setup. But remember that over 10.000 tries i'd see a 500-1k OVERALL dps increase, but i never pull the boss 10.000 times and my lowest and highest DPS output was above if i went haste, now this was even WITH rppm trinkets. Now this is pure single target fight with no pool buff where you burst or any multi dotting 1 row , 2 row, constant 4 line rows or w/e.

    So in this example the RNG factors of stacking more into mastery instead of haste as GoSac shouldn't really be there since your lowest log is higher and your highest log is higher but over 10.000 try you will see a slight DPS increase if you compare all the logs with each other

    So GoSup having nearly the same max output of logs regardless mastery or haste could be worth checking, but the fights we play GoSup is mainly the multi dotting fights, and then we need to look at mastery vs haste on targets and breakpoints and thus going HAM haste wont solve it either.

    Not to mention all this is within margain errors evening everything nearly flat out


    My point overall is that there are no fights we can really use much from these odd haste values, especially when the values are so close that its a bit silly. Once you equip RPPM it drags haste above mastery in a silly amount where it doesnt belong.

    And i agree a bit but i wouldn't compare it to the hit cap because the hit cap is like russian roulette where you get shot in the face every xx try where adjusting your mastery and haste is more like adjusting the lighting in your room.

    Anyways its a topic for discussion, and interesting one imo, because it's rather complicated and ive spent sleepless nights thinking this through and i dont have a final conclusion what i even think. Im just trying to put down some ideas and saying RPPM makes SimC a bit weird in showing overly use of haste being superior to mastery on pretty much anything.
    Last edited by Sparkuggz; 2013-05-24 at 10:33 PM.
    [Method] Sparkuggz | Stream: Sparkuggz | Warlock Guide: Method

  17. #2317
    so with being ilvl 520, i'm wondering what the best affliction setup is in terms of gems and reforge. I'm starting to get confused with all the mastery/haste discussion and a lot of that discussion seems to center around characters with 535+ ilvl.

    thanks!

  18. #2318
    blancoo, the general rule of thumb is to go for 9778 haste breakpoint and the rest into mastery, if you cant reach that breakpoint then go for the prior one which is around 6800 and then rest into haste. nothing has really changed, there has just been a very big focus on stacking haste in 5.3 due to rppm trinkets and going from GoSac to GoSup and as a result i think simcraft have scewed the stat weights a bit, not that haste isnt better in many situations, but my approach to it, is pretty much the same as the one i had in 5.1, reach a haste break point and put everything else into mastery.

  19. #2319
    Field Marshal TheShade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North Carolina, US
    Posts
    89
    Here is a question for Sparkuggz, Evralia, and anyone else that feels that they can help justifying which way I should go.

    I just recently went from 9778 haste point with ~79% mastery unbuffed to 13,157 (for the extra ticks on UA and Agony) with ~68% mastery. My currently ilvl is 530 exactly. As I progress through ToT currently 10/13 Heroic 10man I'm finding myself bouncing between specs.. Afflic MS, Demo / Destro for OS. Currently going Demo next week to prep for Lei Shen.

    So my question here is. After reading both of your posts you do not mention what is the acceptable minimum amount of mastery to have crossing into the new haste point threshold. Since I was at 9778 haste, I had quite a bit of mastery. But now at the 13k haste point, I only have ~68% mastery unbuffed. If you both were in my shoes.. What would you do? Keep in mind I play mostly Affliction especially on majority of the multi dotting fights. Jin'rokh is nice to go all out haste but I'd hate to gem / reforge weekly for that fight only. So I'm looking for an answer that will do me great justice overall and not one particular fight. Great single target dps as well as multi-target fights. It would be nice to be able to rank in both scenario's (multi-dotting & single target).

    If you would like to simcraft my character or review my stats the Armory link is under my signature.

    Thank you in advance and I look forward to your response.
    -Shade


  20. #2320
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShade View Post
    Here is a question for Sparkuggz, Evralia, and anyone else that feels that they can help justifying which way I should go.

    I just recently went from 9778 haste point with ~79% mastery unbuffed to 13,157 (for the extra ticks on UA and Agony) with ~68% mastery. My currently ilvl is 530 exactly. As I progress through ToT currently 10/13 Heroic 10man I'm finding myself bouncing between specs.. Afflic MS, Demo / Destro for OS. Currently going Demo next week to prep for Lei Shen.

    So my question here is. After reading both of your posts you do not mention what is the acceptable minimum amount of mastery to have crossing into the new haste point threshold. Since I was at 9778 haste, I had quite a bit of mastery. But now at the 13k haste point, I only have ~68% mastery unbuffed. If you both were in my shoes.. What would you do? Keep in mind I play mostly Affliction especially on majority of the multi dotting fights. Jin'rokh is nice to go all out haste but I'd hate to gem / reforge weekly for that fight only. So I'm looking for an answer that will do me great justice overall and not one particular fight. Great single target dps as well as multi-target fights. It would be nice to be able to rank in both scenario's (multi-dotting & single target).

    If you would like to simcraft my character or review my stats the Armory link is under my signature.

    Thank you in advance and I look forward to your response.
    -Shade
    For Lei Shen progress I would just go full Mastery as Demo. For Affli I think your current reforging suits fine for any fights where Affli is acceptable to play, and you'll naturally start to get more Mastery now that you're at the 13.1k breakpoint since you won't be getting more Haste.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •