1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    There are no haste "caps" and the plateaus are not something you should worry about unless you're extremely close to one.
    Thanks Mr. Besserwisser for rewording what I wrote. I hope everyone will be able to understand my post better now. Cheers.

  2. #282
    You implied it wasn't worth reforging to Haste because you wouldn't be able to reach plateaus. I explained that was pointless as the plateaus do not matter. You seem to be rather aggressive towards everyone on these forums, as indicated by your recent infraction, so just chill out.

  3. #283
    I sim myself, and get stats weights like 1.86 haste and 1.46 mastery.
    I enter that, reforge accordingly, re sim, and haste @ 1.56 while mastery @ 1.85

    If I enter the same value for haste and mastery and then reforge, results are not as good as a pure haste build.

    Confused.

  4. #284
    yah eiffeltower, I'm finding myself in the same situation. With SimCraft going wonkers on stat weights.
    Also dosent help when i try and import and it doesn't seem to find my cloak (the hit/mastery one)(cant remember name) so I'm unable to get correct weights.
    If anyone has bit of free time to help me Sim, send me pm.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    I sim myself, and get stats weights like 1.86 haste and 1.46 mastery.
    I enter that, reforge accordingly, re sim, and haste @ 1.56 while mastery @ 1.85

    If I enter the same value for haste and mastery and then reforge, results are not as good as a pure haste build.

    Confused.
    You need to use the Plot Reforge graph on Simcraft. You can't just fully reforge to Haste and expect it to still be the best. The reforge graph shows you the optimal point to reforge to.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    You implied it wasn't worth reforging to Haste because you wouldn't be able to reach plateaus. I explained that was pointless as the plateaus do not matter. You seem to be rather aggressive towards everyone on these forums, as indicated by your recent infraction, so just chill out.
    Actually you didn't explain why. You just said it doesn't matter.

    And I never said I would go all out haste to reach any extra tick, so you're just rewording what I wrote. Thus making me feel like I expressed myself in a stupid way and hence my reaction towards you.

    Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that at this point I haven't done enough theorycrafting myself or seen anyone else do it to confidently be able to stack any specific stat. All I know is that crit is shit and I'm glad I don't have any of it on my gear (except the proc trinket, but I'm getting DMC when the faire starts on Sunday).

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    That's just not how Poisson statistics work. If you want the answer from a raid leader, be hit capped. If your goal is to get the highest number on WoL when you happen to kill the boss, do whatever you like.
    I'm not sure you really understand what you're talking about if I'm being completely honest here. The idea of DPS is the fact that (regardless of what/who you're attacking) you are doing that much DPS, period. So the idea is to gain as much DPS, not for your own personal gain but also for the overall raid damage. Do we get to have confirmation of our e-peen when we top meters? Sure, but while topping the meter you did that much more damage to the boss than everyone else.

  8. #288
    I was looking in simc site for the priority and got it: Int > SP > Mastery > Hit > Haste > Crit
    www . simulationcraft . org /505/ Warlock.html#Warlock_Affliction_T14H

    What do you think about it evralia?

    Does it means that depending of your item you have a different scale factor?
    Or does it means that there isn´t a consensus about the stats priority for the AFF Warlock?

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by ponzio View Post
    I was looking in simc site for the priority and got it: Int > SP > Mastery > Hit > Haste > Crit
    www . simulationcraft . org /505/ Warlock.html#Warlock_Affliction_T14H

    What do you think about it evralia?

    Does it means that depending of your item you have a different scale factor?
    Or does it means that there isn´t a consensus about the stats priority for the AFF Warlock?
    Those scale factors are correct for the level of gear used in the simulation - in that case, full tier 14 heroic. You have to sim your own character to know what is optimal for you =]

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    You need to use the Plot Reforge graph on Simcraft. You can't just fully reforge to Haste and expect it to still be the best. The reforge graph shows you the optimal point to reforge to.
    This - but I will note that often the 'point' to reforge to is a haste threshold. In my current (466-ish) gear, my optimal reforge point happens to be 4198 Haste, which is the threshold for an extra tick on both UA and Corruption under Lust/DS.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    This - but I will note that often the 'point' to reforge to is a haste threshold. In my current (466-ish) gear, my optimal reforge point happens to be 4198 Haste, which is the threshold for an extra tick on both UA and Corruption under Lust/DS.
    On that note, I remember seeing a spreadsheet with all our new haste tick points in. Does someone have a link?

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    On that note, I remember seeing a spreadsheet with all our new haste tick points in. Does someone have a link?
    Yes a link to this would be awesome. I checked around google the other day for about 30 minutes to no avail .

  13. #293

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    Those scale factors are correct for the level of gear used in the simulation - in that case, full tier 14 heroic. You have to sim your own character to know what is optimal for you =]
    I´m not a hardcore player, so do you think that if I use this scale since now, with my actual gear, I can do 90-95% of what I could do using the right scale?

  15. #295
    One of the things I haven't seen mentioned is that the issue people are having is that the default scale factors in simcraft are calculated for 200 point swings, which is great for figuring out gemming but not great for reforging as you can achieve much higher rating swings at lvl 90 through reforging.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  16. #296
    With every gear change I have completed 3 sets of reforge plots, and the results are virtually identical for the gear levels that I have achieved so far.

    Mastery to Hit/Hit to Mastery
    Using my gear (461 ilvl): For a reforge delta of 400 points the results show it is a consistent DPS increase to reforge hit to Mastery, reforging Mastery to Hit is never a dps increase, it is always a dps decrease. The dps change is about 100 dps per 400 Hit/Mastery exchanged. Over the 800 rating range of the reforge the total dps change was about 200 dps.

    Haste to Hit/Hit to Haste
    For all values of Haste and Hit I have seen, it is approximately dps neutral to exchange Hit for Haste and unless you drop below certain haste values that seem to differ with gear (and therefore current haste).. For my current gear that value seems to be about 300 haste rating below my current 3372 (3000ish). I checked the Dot /Haste spreadsheet which said that is near the point where Agony gains a 14th tick and an 18th tick during Bloodlust/Heroism (with haste buff).

    Mastery to Haste/Haste to Mastery
    Exchanging Haste to Mastery appears to be a slight dps increase until you reach the same breakpoint seen in the Haste to Hit conversion where this a noticeable dps drop (~150 dps)

    Understanding that this applies only to my gear for a Patchwerk type fight, I believe these results indicate that despite the fact that Simcraft consistently reports haste as my highest secondary stat, it is in fact mastery that provides the most consistent dps increase.
    In addition, the numerous points that are achievable where the numbers of dot ticks changes makes reforging haste quite complicated and not necessarily a dps increase (or decrease).
    Hit it seems is now a quality of life/consistency stat. Being hit capped is an overall dps loss (how much depending on how you get there). However from my personal experience, doing fights significantly below hit cap is difficult and frustrating. It will of course cause your dps to shine occasionally and tank sometimes.
    I would therefore suggest the following strategies for reforging gear similar to mine (ilvl 461):

    Reforging for hit cap:
    1. Reforge all crit to either hit or expertise (on gear with hit)
    2. Reforge haste to hit until you are just above the nearest haste breakpoint: 3043 is one I am near, 4198 seems to be another to shoot for.
    3. Reforge Mastery to Hit. If you have to reforge more than 500-700 mastery to reach hit cap, it might be better to drop haste past the closest significant haste threshold to just above the next. Then reforge the rest from mastery to hit.

    Reforging for max dps on Simcraft
    1. All crit to mastery
    2. All haste to mastery until just above a significant threshold . If you can drop haste well past this point then go ahead and reforge all of it to mastery
    3. All hit to mastery
    One caveat, I have not actually simmed a character where I have done this reforge, there may be critical values below the delta that I have reached where mastery becomes a dps loss. I just haven’t seen them yet.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Tresdallah View Post
    I'm not sure you really understand what you're talking about if I'm being completely honest here. The idea of DPS is the fact that (regardless of what/who you're attacking) you are doing that much DPS, period. So the idea is to gain as much DPS, not for your own personal gain but also for the overall raid damage. Do we get to have confirmation of our e-peen when we top meters? Sure, but while topping the meter you did that much more damage to the boss than everyone else.
    As an officer in my guild and a former raid leader, I value consistency more strongly than who can reach the highest peak on a given night. I'd rather rely on someone who rests consistently at, for example, the 80th percentile than someone who bounces between the 70th and the 90th, even if over a long term this averages out and the possibility of the peaks might seem an attractive gamble.

    And that's just what sacrificing hit in favor of higher dps is -- a gamble. Mathematically it might be a winning gamble over hundreds/thousands of parses, but we're not going to be doing each fight enough for the RNG to even out, and I'm not enough a gambler to hope luck is on our side for the attempts/kills we do have. I like to know, not hope.

    Just my two cents.
    --
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Toy Train Set has been temporarily disabled.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    As an officer in my guild and a former raid leader, I value consistency more strongly than who can reach the highest peak on a given night. I'd rather rely on someone who rests consistently at, for example, the 80th percentile than someone who bounces between the 70th and the 90th, even if over a long term this averages out and the possibility of the peaks might seem an attractive gamble.

    And that's just what sacrificing hit in favor of higher dps is -- a gamble. Mathematically it might be a winning gamble over hundreds/thousands of parses, but we're not going to be doing each fight enough for the RNG to even out, and I'm not enough a gambler to hope luck is on our side for the attempts/kills we do have. I like to know, not hope.

    Just my two cents.
    I take it you don't let your mages play fire then?

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    As an officer in my guild and a former raid leader, I value consistency more strongly than who can reach the highest peak on a given night. I'd rather rely on someone who rests consistently at, for example, the 80th percentile than someone who bounces between the 70th and the 90th, even if over a long term this averages out and the possibility of the peaks might seem an attractive gamble.

    And that's just what sacrificing hit in favor of higher dps is -- a gamble. Mathematically it might be a winning gamble over hundreds/thousands of parses, but we're not going to be doing each fight enough for the RNG to even out, and I'm not enough a gambler to hope luck is on our side for the attempts/kills we do have. I like to know, not hope.

    Just my two cents.
    The increase in RNG in going for hit-cap vs. not going for hitcap is nowhere near the difference between 70th and 90th percentile. You may swing 1 or 2k dps in either direction with low amounts of hit and bad RNG but it's definitely not as large a swing as you seem to think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ddeaderthanu
    With every gear change I have completed 3 sets of reforge plots, and the results are virtually identical for the gear levels that I have achieved so far.

    Mastery to Hit/Hit to Mastery
    Using my gear (461 ilvl): For a reforge delta of 400 points the results show it is a consistent DPS increase to reforge hit to Mastery, reforging Mastery to Hit is never a dps increase, it is always a dps decrease. The dps change is about 100 dps per 400 Hit/Mastery exchanged. Over the 800 rating range of the reforge the total dps change was about 200 dps.

    Haste to Hit/Hit to Haste
    For all values of Haste and Hit I have seen, it is approximately dps neutral to exchange Hit for Haste and unless you drop below certain haste values that seem to differ with gear (and therefore current haste).. For my current gear that value seems to be about 300 haste rating below my current 3372 (3000ish). I checked the Dot /Haste spreadsheet which said that is near the point where Agony gains a 14th tick and an 18th tick during Bloodlust/Heroism (with haste buff).

    Mastery to Haste/Haste to Mastery
    Exchanging Haste to Mastery appears to be a slight dps increase until you reach the same breakpoint seen in the Haste to Hit conversion where this a noticeable dps drop (~150 dps)

    Understanding that this applies only to my gear for a Patchwerk type fight, I believe these results indicate that despite the fact that Simcraft consistently reports haste as my highest secondary stat, it is in fact mastery that provides the most consistent dps increase.
    In addition, the numerous points that are achievable where the numbers of dot ticks changes makes reforging haste quite complicated and not necessarily a dps increase (or decrease).
    Hit it seems is now a quality of life/consistency stat. Being hit capped is an overall dps loss (how much depending on how you get there). However from my personal experience, doing fights significantly below hit cap is difficult and frustrating. It will of course cause your dps to shine occasionally and tank sometimes.
    I would therefore suggest the following strategies for reforging gear similar to mine (ilvl 461):

    Reforging for hit cap:
    1. Reforge all crit to either hit or expertise (on gear with hit)
    2. Reforge haste to hit until you are just above the nearest haste breakpoint: 3043 is one I am near, 4198 seems to be another to shoot for.
    3. Reforge Mastery to Hit. If you have to reforge more than 500-700 mastery to reach hit cap, it might be better to drop haste past the closest significant haste threshold to just above the next. Then reforge the rest from mastery to hit.

    Reforging for max dps on Simcraft
    1. All crit to mastery
    2. All haste to mastery until just above a significant threshold . If you can drop haste well past this point then go ahead and reforge all of it to mastery
    3. All hit to mastery
    One caveat, I have not actually simmed a character where I have done this reforge, there may be critical values below the delta that I have reached where mastery becomes a dps loss. I just haven’t seen them yet.
    To back up what this guy is saying, here is my stat scaling in my calculated gear (armory in signature):


    If you look at the graph you see that as I gain haste/mastery they increase DPS at roughly the same rate and are swapping spots as the highest dps increase often. You then see that as hit increases it increases DPS, but not nearly as much as haste or mastery does. Crit is the worst stat by far and drops even further in value around 340 crit rating added.
    There also appears to be a haste-breakpoint around 50-60 increased haste rating added which can be seen on the graph by the bump in haste's value shortly after the x=0 mark.

    If you look in the negative direction you see a few interesting things.
    1) Losing more mastery has the largest decrease in damage
    2) Losing more hit actually has the second largest decrease in damage
    3) Losing Haste is generally third most important to not lose
    4) Losing crit is the best thing to lose and decreases damage the least
    5) Hit/Haste/Crit are all roughly the same damage lost up until around 200 stats lost for each stat.

  20. #300
    Out of curiosity, how does it feel playing under the hit cap v at it? Is it just a case of needing to keep a closer eye on dots incase an application misses?

    I'm considering reforging out of my hit-cap, at least to experiment with, but I'm curious as to if anyone who's played that way can comment on if it feels particularly different, and if so, how.

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