1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Daggot Ur View Post
    I usually play demo but see that raidwise Affli is more viable for some of the fights I decided to try out affli spec and I don't really understand why do you MG until 50% of the dots? Isn't it viable to use at pull DS +SB:SW + 2*Haunt and MG for the duration of both Haunts + SB:SW at the end of DS (as someone mentioned here already) in order to make the maximum use of the buffed dots?
    I was wondering the same, but evralia has explained it pretty much. Actually I never thought about letting UA/Corruption tick off when they are buffed with the best procs. It really does make you think, and it helps to know the value of each proc and have them displayed clearly so you can see just what you're buffing your dots with.

    The balance is refreshing your dots as close to the 50% mark as you can whilst buffing them with procs. Sometimes I'm in a situation where I have 10 seconds left on say, my DMC ICD, but to get another full MG out, I'd have to let the dots drop off. Always mentally note just how supercharged your dots are at any one time and you will begin to manage your own priorities in a sense.

  2. #322
    With pandemic I don't understand why you just wouldn't refresh your DoT's before they're about to run out. You're still not clipping any MG's and you'll have another Haunt for more pew pew. I'm convinced what you're speculating about is a DPS loss. The only gain you get is more MG uptime but come on, for the cost of a Haunt on those DoTs? Am I missing something?

    Another thing I don't get is the instant DS and SB:SS. I hardcast my DoTs and do a full MG to make sure everything has procced before I pop DS and after that I even wait a bit before I refresh all DoTs manually again. (Usually I go Haunt->UA->full MG->Corruption->Agony->Haunt again)

    Overall I see no reason at all to waste soul shards on a soul swap during single target fights.
    Last edited by Bonkura; 2012-10-08 at 04:00 PM.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    With pandemic I don't understand why you just wouldn't refresh your DoT's before they're about to run out. You're still not clipping any MG's and you'll have another Haunt for more pew pew. I'm convinced what you're speculating about is a DPS loss. The only gain you get is more MG uptime but come on, for the cost of a Haunt on those DoTs? Am I missing something?

    Another thing I don't get is the instant DS and SB:SS. I hardcast my DoTs and do a full MG to make sure everything has procced before I pop DS and after that I even wait a bit before I refresh all DoTs manually again. (Usually I go Haunt->UA->full MG->Corruption->Agony->Haunt again)
    You're right for the first bit and I'd always refresh my dots before they run out anyway, UNLESS the previous set of dots were 'supercharged' and this time there were no procs up. I'm pretty sure the dots don't 'carry' the procs.

    For your second part, I don't really get why you would hard cast your dots before DS. The whole point is to buff your dots with DS, and you would always have chance to refresh your dots whilst the procs are still up. Also, getting all 3 dots up instantly may proc your trinkets quicker. DS lasts for a while and I've found it times well with my procs at the start of a fight. So to reiterate, I start with the following:

    CoE - DS/on use trinket - SB:SS - Haunt - MG - MG - hard cast dots with all procs up.

    This means I have DS/int trinket for first set of dots, Haunt/MG as the procs come up, and most are still there when I then hardcast the dots.

    Can I just check though as this seems to constantly change - are dot ticks dynamic? As in, if you have an int proc up and cast a dot, does the dot 'carry' the proc until the next refresh? It seems to do this for haste procs.
    Last edited by Jenerena; 2012-10-08 at 04:09 PM.

  4. #324
    Well, this discussion becomes redundant because I'm going to make my raid allow me to Soulburn at least 15 seconds before the pull so I get a free SB:SS (you generate 1 soul shard every 15th second out of combat). The reasons I'm waiting with DS is because I will have to refresh my dots anyway when I get my procs and they will also line up better with eachother. By delaying both the use trinket and DS I'm convinced you get a higher uptime on everything with stronger dots and that saved soul shard gives you an extra bonus from Haunt because the dots will last long enough to let you use at least 24 seconds of the Haunt debuff, probably more by generating an extra soul shard from nightfall during this time.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Well, this discussion becomes redundant because I'm going to make my raid allow me to Soulburn at least 15 seconds before the pull so I get a free SB:SS (you generate 1 soul shard every 15th second out of combat). The reasons I'm waiting with DS is because I will have to refresh my dots anyway when I get my procs and they will also line up better with eachother. By delaying both the use trinket and DS I'm convinced you get a higher uptime on everything with stronger dots and that saved soul shard gives you an extra bonus from Haunt because the dots will last long enough to let you use at least 24 seconds of the Haunt debuff, probably more by generating an extra soul shard from nightfall during this time.
    Relic of Yu'lon has a 50 sec ICD which means popping DS as soon as that procs means you will likely have DS for the fifth trinket proc, which makes sense. The only thing that limits you is not having the full benefit of the pre-pot. The trinket (on use intellect) doesn't really line up with anything, but has a longer duration so I'd be tempted to pop that slightly earlier.
    Last edited by Jenerena; 2012-10-08 at 05:25 PM.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenerena View Post
    Relic of Yu'lon has a 105 sec ICD which means popping DS as soon as that procs means you will likely have DS for the third trinket proc, which makes sense. The only thing that limits you is not having the full benefit of the pre-pot. The trinket (on use intellect) doesn't really line up with anything, but has a longer duration so I'd be tempted to pop that slightly earlier.
    50 sec ICD i believe

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by kaamila View Post
    50 sec ICD i believe
    I stand corrected! fixed.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenerena View Post
    Relic of Yu'lon has a 50 sec ICD which means popping DS as soon as that procs means you will likely have DS for the fifth trinket proc, which makes sense. The only thing that limits you is not having the full benefit of the pre-pot. The trinket (on use intellect) doesn't really line up with anything, but has a longer duration so I'd be tempted to pop that slightly earlier.
    I hold my DS for the use trinket all the time and Relic of Yu'lon usually lines up with my 2nd DS+trinket but it gets worse during a longer fight.

  9. #329
    Thanks a lot for this dialogue. Extremely valuable.
    Last edited by Potentio; 2012-10-08 at 08:33 PM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenerena View Post
    The trinket (on use intellect) doesn't really line up with anything, but has a longer duration so I'd be tempted to pop that slightly earlier.
    I think I'll just macro the trinket with my prepot, since they have the same duration. Then I'll do as I said and have a soulburn up at least 15 seconds before the pull so I start with a free SB:SS and 4 soul shards. DS+SS seems like a good idea to macro together as well. The opening will then be as follows:

    1. Soulburn >20s before pull
    2. Trinket+Potion ~3s before pull (trinket = Flashfrozen Resin Globule)
    3. Haunt ~1.5s before pull
    4. DS+SS on pull (and Blood Fury if you're Orc like me)
    5. CoE
    6. Full MG (Relic of Yu'lon should proc here)
    7. Reapply UA+Corruption
    8. Haunt
    9. Reapply Agony
    10. MG
    11. Continue normal rotation.

    No testing involved here. Doomguard comes with DS+SS if there's BL on pull.

    Edit: Realized I can't CoE with a SB up lmao.
    Edit2: Added Haunt prepull. Might want to do it before pot+trinket but travel distance is likely to be too short for this.
    Edit3: You actually generate one soul shard every 20th second out of combat making this a bit hard to pull off.
    Last edited by Bonkura; 2012-10-08 at 09:59 PM.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    I think I'll just macro the trinket with my prepot, since they have the same duration. Then I'll do as I said and have a soulburn up at least 15 seconds before the pull so I start with a free SB:SS and 4 soul shards. DS+SS seems like a good idea to macro together as well. The opening will then be as follows:

    1. Soulburn >15s before pull
    2. Trinket+Potion ~1.5s before pull (trinket = Flashfrozen Resin Globule)
    3. DS+SS on pull (and Blood Fury if you're Orc like me)
    4. CoE
    5. Haunt
    6. Full MG (Relic of Yu'lon should proc here)
    7. Reapply UA+Corruption
    8. Haunt
    9. Reapply Agony
    10. MG
    11. Continue normal rotation.

    No testing involved here. Doomguard comes with DS+SS if there's BL on pull.

    Edit: Realized I can't CoE with a SB up lmao.
    Why would you not cast haunt pre-pull? The travel time will mean you have your DoTs up in time for casting MG and you get an extra GCD to work with.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Why would you not cast haunt pre-pull? The travel time will mean you have your DoTs up in time for casting MG and you get an extra GCD to work with.
    Good point. I'm so used to open with UA. Changing previous post. Thanks.

  13. #333
    To be fair though, it's literally one GCD, that will affect MAYBE 50 dps overall, if that. Sure, "every little bit helps" but in the grand scheme of things, one GCD on the pull isn't going to make or break you, it's so much more about how you handle your class during the fight itself.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by neubs986 View Post
    To be fair though, it's literally one GCD, that will affect MAYBE 50 dps overall, if that. Sure, "every little bit helps" but in the grand scheme of things, one GCD on the pull isn't going to make or break you, it's so much more about how you handle your class during the fight itself.
    You should always open with something that has a cast time/travel distance because... there's no reason not to.

    The whole idea of soulburning is something I might scratch though since I doubt people will be up for a 30 sec pull timer just so I can start the fight with an extra soul shard.

    This is the easiest solution for everyone I think.

    1. Trinket+Potion ~3s before pull (trinket = Flashfrozen Resin Globule)
    2. Haunt ~1.5s before pull
    3. DS+SB:SS on pull (+Blood Fury for orcs)
    4. CoE
    5. Full MG
    6. Haunt
    7. Reapply UA+Corruption
    8. Full MG
    9. Reapply Agony
    10. Haunt
    11. Continue normal rotation.

  15. #335
    1) Pot+Trinket doesn't trigger a GCD. You're losing 1.5 seconds doing nothing there.

    2) Why do you do a second MG before reapplying agony?

    3) Why do you not use a shard for a second SB:SS? (cont below)


    You have to compare the damage gained by a haunt/trinket/proc buffed MG channel with the damage lost from a haunt used with no procs/pots.

    There's no real way to do the math effectively but my gut feeling is that getting another fully buffed MG channel outweighs the extra damage from a haunt that's not buffed in any way.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-08 at 03:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by neubs986 View Post
    To be fair though, it's literally one GCD, that will affect MAYBE 50 dps overall, if that. Sure, "every little bit helps" but in the grand scheme of things, one GCD on the pull isn't going to make or break you, it's so much more about how you handle your class during the fight itself.
    And there's absolutely no reason not to cast haunt on the pull. If you care about doing the job you're supposed to be doing (max dps while following mechanics) then you should care about 50 dps.

    If you don't think about the little things odds are you won't handle yourself very well during a fight. It indicates a lack of interest or a lack of intricate knowledge in how the class performs.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    With pandemic I don't understand why you just wouldn't refresh your DoT's before they're about to run out. You're still not clipping any MG's and you'll have another Haunt for more pew pew. I'm convinced what you're speculating about is a DPS loss. The only gain you get is more MG uptime but come on, for the cost of a Haunt on those DoTs? Am I missing something?

    Another thing I don't get is the instant DS and SB:SS. I hardcast my DoTs and do a full MG to make sure everything has procced before I pop DS and after that I even wait a bit before I refresh all DoTs manually again. (Usually I go Haunt->UA->full MG->Corruption->Agony->Haunt again)

    Overall I see no reason at all to waste soul shards on a soul swap during single target fights.
    Why would you pop DS and then wait before refreshing your DoTs? DS is doing effectively nothing until you refresh them.

    If you have DoTs that are buffed with Int/Dark Soul, and you then lose Dark Soul/Int procs and then refresh them before they expire, you're directly reducing the amount of damage that those ticks would do. I don't know what you're talking about with losing a Haunt. I have Haunt up for the entire duration of my Dark Soul charged DoTs, unless I'm super super unlucky with procs.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    1) Pot+Trinket doesn't trigger a GCD. You're losing 1.5 seconds doing nothing there.

    2) Why do you do a second MG before reapplying agony?

    3) Why do you not use a shard for a second SB:SS? (cont below)


    You have to compare the damage gained by a haunt/trinket/proc buffed MG channel with the damage lost from a haunt used with no procs/pots.

    There's no real way to do the math effectively but my gut feeling is that getting another fully buffed MG channel outweighs the extra damage from a haunt that's not buffed in any way..
    1) Indeed, should probably macro them together if we want to save time by not having to click multiple buttons.

    2) Because it will have more than 12 seconds left and waste of pandemic effect. Will do some testing though.

    3) Same here. Some testing is needed. When exactly do you want to use a second SB:SS? Right after the first MG and second Haunt when Relic of Yu'lon proc is up?

    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    I don't know what you're talking about with losing a Haunt. I have Haunt up for the entire duration of my Dark Soul charged DoTs, unless I'm super super unlucky with procs.
    If we're aiming to use SB:SS twice, not having bloodlust and I've done the math right you need at least 4 haunts to keep the debuff up during your fully buffed UA's before the last one will run out. During this time you will have approximately 30 ticks of corruption. Each tick has a 5% chance to give you a soul shard. There's a half soul shard missing there. And this is not taking our other two dots in consideration.
    Last edited by Bonkura; 2012-10-08 at 11:39 PM.

  18. #338
    So, it appears like we can tripple-dip into proc effects with some Pandemic abuse.
    DMC, Lightweave Embroidery, weapon enchant all have 12-15 second duration. They proc, we refresh dots, then refresh again just as they are about to expire. Making maximum posible time of supercharged dots: 48 seconds for Agony, 36 for Corruption, 33 for UA. All procs have ~50 second icd, so thats quite an uptime. I imagine lining up at least two would not be that hard. And the best part - MG and DS damage depends of our dot damage (ignoring our current spd?), so they also get buffed for the duration.
    Do you think that is intended?

    Also, training dummy says that Fel Flame refreshes Corr/UA with our current spell damage, so you can either lose or gain damage depending on current dot damage. It is not always the best spell to use when moving, making KC an attractive talent choice for affliction.


    Edit:
    Well, it's not only proc effects. We can also extend pots and, to a lesser extent, heroism.
    Last edited by Ridcully; 2012-10-09 at 05:47 AM.

  19. #339
    I wanted to point out that Windsong is broken for DoT and HoT classes and only procced 9 times for me during 4 hours of raiding.

    Does not proc from periodic damage but only direct damage. Power torrent is simming as a DPS increase; unless this is addressed in a hotfix, power torrent should be used by affliction locks.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    1) Indeed, should probably macro them together if we want to save time by not having to click multiple buttons.

    2) Because it will have more than 12 seconds left and waste of pandemic effect. Will do some testing though.

    3) Same here. Some testing is needed. When exactly do you want to use a second SB:SS? Right after the first MG and second Haunt when Relic of Yu'lon proc is up?


    If we're aiming to use SB:SS twice, not having bloodlust and I've done the math right you need at least 4 haunts to keep the debuff up during your fully buffed UA's before the last one will run out. During this time you will have approximately 30 ticks of corruption. Each tick has a 5% chance to give you a soul shard. There's a half soul shard missing there. And this is not taking our other two dots in consideration.
    Interesting.

    Really, I see no reason not to macro your potion and trinket to Haunt, and use an alt modifier (so a supercharged haunt keybinding). It might be tight, but realistically if it is too tight to get your pre-pot in as you cast haunt (which is probably is) you wouldn't be doing anything before that anyway, so IMO pop your pre-pot, and macro your trinket to pre-combat Haunt.

    Also, I'm a little concerned about the delay of CoE. Do dots update per tick for target debuffs?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 09:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    Why would you pop DS and then wait before refreshing your DoTs? DS is doing effectively nothing until you refresh them.

    If you have DoTs that are buffed with Int/Dark Soul, and you then lose Dark Soul/Int procs and then refresh them before they expire, you're directly reducing the amount of damage that those ticks would do. I don't know what you're talking about with losing a Haunt. I have Haunt up for the entire duration of my Dark Soul charged DoTs, unless I'm super super unlucky with procs.
    To be honest it's why I like to pop my first set of dots under DS, so that when I come to reapply them shortly after, they will not only have DS applied to them again, but they will also catch all the int procs up at the time. By doing this along with pre-pot and trinket, you are separating all the on-use cooldowns from the procs as they come later, but you're also ensuring your dots get the maximum uptime as they should overlap for you to reapply.

    I'd also like to point out that there seems to be a lot of staggering of MG casts. Surely, you want to be in a position whereby you can cast 2-3 MGs in a row, without having to reapply dots. Isn't this the best use of haunt?
    Last edited by Jenerena; 2012-10-09 at 08:53 AM.

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